Can Soccer dethrone Hockey as Canada's national game?

[jonovision]

^ Don't forget that the CFL TV deal dwarfs MLS TV money in Canada, and will only be growing when it comes up again.

[Redcoatsforever]

I don't think the argos are going anywhere, but it is pretty clear that they're less popular than TFC (at least within Toronto). At the same time, I do think CFL is -at least at the professional and spectator level- more popular than soccer in the rest of Canada.

[paul-collins]

I think we've been here before.

[Free kick]

Proof? Show me the breakdown. Are you David Braley's accountant now too? Calling me names doesn't make the stuff that you dream up right.

Of course you have no proof, you never do, you just make it up as you go along.

You do realise that Braley bankrolled the purchase of the team by previous owners who walked away from the the investment. And, that in an area of six millions people that has the highest number of wealthy individuals and entities in Canada, there is not a single local person or entity willing to step up to invest in the local CFL team and they have had to rely on an investor (who already owns another team) from another part of the country.

Consider also:

1) That the Argos have had so many different owners in the past 20 years to that many of us have lost count.

2) That media conglomerates are fighting tooth and nail to buy up content for their delivery channels and that Argos are not even getting a whisper of mention. They are essentially out on island of their own whereas the big players are fighting it out for properties that include the soccer. So why isn't Rogers, MLSEL, or other media entities out there getting their hands on the Argos?

3) That someone paid 10 million to buy a soccer team in this market and that the expansion fees have since gone up to 40 Million two years later. Dont tell me for second that any buyer paid anything remotely close to ten mill for the Argos or any CFL team. The evidence is rather that the previous owners found no takers and walked away and the the league stepped in keep them afloat. Hence you could say that the CFL team in this market is worthless and (if one has even the slightest business acumen) that assets are worthless because they cant generate cash flows or earnings or lose $$$.

So out of all that, where is the evidence contrary to that fact that TFC is making money and that Argos are a money loser?

PS.: I cant believe that in the 10-12 yrs that have been on this site, we have gone from yearning for soccer to become a viable business entity to now trashing the sport and dragging it down.

[Macksam]

The proof is in the pwning.

Joe why so surprised at the defence of the idea that our sport could grow past the CFL on this type of forum? BTW I don't find it funny that you attack another Canadian for where he shows he lives while your own location remains hidden. Poor form.

Now that I have shown proof, he can't constantly play that lack of proof angle that he lives and dies by on this forum.

[derofan]

The response to this thread title is not in our lifetime. Maybe when the population of our country realises that soccer is worldwide international and that we need to support our national teams then maybe. The mindset of canadians is they like fast paced action and soccer is too slow for them unfortunately. This will take time to adjust

[paul-collins]

Perhaps the obits written here of the CFL are premature.

In two years (2012) the current television contract with TSN will expire. The current contract was a five year deal for $80 million. Although small by any other football standards it was a major improvement to the once failing CFL. Since the contract was signed, television viewership has continued to climb. Last year's televised Grey Cup game was watched by over 14 million people; a number which was not attainable just a couple years prior and is equal to what the NFL gets in Canada during the Super Bowl.

Television networks are now anxious to get a piece of the CFL television market and will likely pay record amounts for the opportunity. Some expect the next television deal will be double the current contract price.

http://boxscorenews.com/the-rise-of-the-new-cfl-p466-83.htm

Shoot, that's $2m per year per team under current contract. No wonder they can afford the same salary level as TFC with half the games.

Has anyone heard what the TSN deal for MLS is worth?

edit: I went trolling for MLSE financials and came up empty, but I saw that BMO field was profitable to the tune of about $600k (almost triple what they forecast) and TFC gets to share that with the City. I'm assuming that's concessions and parking, I can't imagine it relates to ticket sales or merchandise...

[Joe MacCarthy]

^ Don't forget that the CFL TV deal dwarfs MLS TV money in Canada, and will only be growing when it comes up again.

Good to see a couple of people who "get it"

[Joe MacCarthy]

Now that I have shown proof, he can't constantly play that lack of proof angle that he lives and dies by on this forum.

One line from an American researcher that mentions no numbers but only makes a statement about profitability is hardly proof. The only thing it proves is for the first time you got off your ass and tried to find something. See, typing "Argos profitability" into Google isn't so hard. Perhaps you can try it again sometime.

[Gordon]

One line from an American researcher that mentions no numbers but only makes a statement about profitability is hardly proof. The only thing it proves is for the first time you got off your ass and tried to find something. See, typing "Argos profitability" into Google isn't so hard. Perhaps you can try it again sometime.

There has been some bizzare logic on this thread, not to mention considerable fabrication of "facts", but this might be the one point Macksam makes that is valid - although completely irrelevant to his general point*. Perry Leftko, a well respected CFL writer, who was questioning the $12-15 million price tag place on the Argo's by the previous owners, also suggested that the Argos lost money every year. Now, obviously, this pre-dates Brayley, who despite his apparent lack of "business acumen", manages to do pretty well for himself. The article was about 18 months ago and should still be available on-line.

* The Saskatchewan Roughriders, in a market of 1 million, manages to make twice as much as TFC does in a market approximately 10 times larger. This clearly demonstrates exactly how irrelevant TFC, and sports in general (if TFC's relatively popularity is as is claimed) is in the Toronto market. Of course the preceeding argument does not hold water. Chelsea FC, for example, loses a ****load of money and no sane individual would say TFC, or the Riders, are more popular that Chelsea.

But anyway, thanks for the laugh. Reading this thread reminded me why I rarely come here any more. Weak sauce arguments resulting from a complete lack of critical thinking. There probably is a qualititative argument to be made about the relative popularity of the Argo's versus TFC right now. The Argos are a team that traditionally ebbs and flows between extremes and they are currently at a down point. TFC is still relatively new and shinny although there is some evidence that the bloom is starting to fade on that particular rose.

Anyways, signing off from Saskatoon, Saskatchewan, south east part of the city, not too far from the from the University. Don't want to go more specific than that as both Selma Hyak and Shania Twain are stalking me and would dearly love to find out my address (for the record, that was made up. I love threads like this!)

[Joe MacCarthy]

Thank you, this is the stuff I'm trying to say. We need critical thinking involving all aspects rather than opinion.

[Macksam]

There has been some bizzare logic on this thread, not to mention considerable fabrication of "facts", but this might be the one point Macksam makes that is valid - although completely irrelevant to his general point*. Perry Leftko, a well respected CFL writer, who was questioning the $12-15 million price tag place on the Argo's by the previous owners, also suggested that the Argos lost money every year. Now, obviously, this pre-dates Brayley, who despite his apparent lack of "business acumen", manages to do pretty well for himself. The article was about 18 months ago and should still be available on-line.

* The Saskatchewan Roughriders, in a market of 1 million, manages to make twice as much as TFC does in a market approximately 10 times larger. This clearly demonstrates exactly how irrelevant TFC, and sports in general (if TFC's relatively popularity is as is claimed) is in the Toronto market. Of course the preceeding argument does not hold water. Chelsea FC, for example, loses a ****load of money and no sane individual would say TFC, or the Riders, are more popular that Chelsea.

But anyway, thanks for the laugh. Reading this thread reminded me why I rarely come here any more. Weak sauce arguments resulting from a complete lack of critical thinking. There probably is a qualititative argument to be made about the relative popularity of the Argo's versus TFC right now. The Argos are a team that traditionally ebbs and flows between extremes and they are currently at a down point. TFC is still relatively new and shinny although there is some evidence that the bloom is starting to fade on that particular rose.

Anyways, signing off from Saskatoon, Saskatchewan, south east part of the city, not too far from the from the University. Don't want to go more specific than that as both Selma Hyak and Shania Twain are stalking me and would dearly love to find out my address (for the record, that was made up. I love threads like this!)

Explain yourself.

Thank you, this is the stuff I'm trying to say. We need critical thinking involving all aspects rather than opinion.

The Argos don't make any money, that is fact.

[Joe MacCarthy]

The Argos don't make any money, that is fact.

No, that is your opinion. Prove it. Macksam plus opinion does not equal proof.

[Keegan]

No, that is your opinion. Prove it. Macksam plus opinion does not equal proof.

Seriously man give it up, you have an experienced CFL writer saying the same thing.. I live an hour outside of Toronto and coverage is literally non-existent I've never met an Argos fan.

[Joe MacCarthy]

Tell me this then, who are those 20,000+ people (same number as TFC) going to Argo games, are they from Saskatchewan or something. No one from the GTA is part of a 600,000 TV viewing audience?

In all your guy's zeal to promote TFC soccer you're missing a point. I don't think I've really said anything great about the Argos, I just think some of you are in denial about what is there.

[Macksam]

Tell me this then, who are those 20,000+ people (same number as TFC) going to Argo games, are they from Saskatchewan or something. No one from the GTA is part of a 600,000 TV viewing audience?

In all your guy's zeal to promote TFC soccer you're missing a point. I don't think I've really said anything great about the Argos, I just think some of you are in denial about what is there.

I don't think we are in denial about anything.

Seriously man give it up, you have an experienced CFL writer saying the same thing.. I live an hour outside of Toronto and coverage is literally non-existent I've never met an Argos fan.

lol, reminds of that one broadcast of the Dean Blundell show where Todd was trying to find if there was an Argos fan on the streets of Toronto and not one person said they were.

I honestly don't know who these 20,000.

[paul-collins]

Oh good, Dean Blundell as authority figure!

[Joe MacCarthy]

Who's Dean Blundell?

[Macksam]

Oh good, Dean Blundell as authority figure!

lol, in all fairness, there is some trolling that goes on in that show.

[paul-collins]

Hell, they're the best parts of the show.

[Macksam]

Who's Dean Blundell?

I've been kind of a dick to you. Can I buy you a pint of Keith's Premium White the next time your in town? Personally, it's my favourite.

[Joe MacCarthy]

I've been on these Vs boards since it was hosted at the Univ of Alberta. If I haven't had a scrap with just about everyone, I'd be surprised. So, I have no problem with dishing it out and taking it too.

Thanks for the gesture, I look forward to the day when those three (and more) Canadian MLS teams will be supplying players to the NT and providing a stepping stone to big name clubs around the world and we'll be celebrating our team at a World Cup in Canada.

That will happen, I guarantee it, and in my lifetime.

Keith's, hmm interesting.