DJT Posted January 27, 2008 Share Posted January 27, 2008 As discussed elsewhere on the forum, Toronto FC, Montreal Impact and Vancouver Whitecaps intend to establish a new competition for themselves this year, which would essentially serve as a Canadian championship. As also discussed elsewhere on the forum, it would be natural to award the Voyageurs Cup to the winner of such a competition. I figured that we could do this by carrying on with what we've been doing in running the Voyageurs Cup ourselves, perhaps with additional help from the clubs to make it a bit bigger. However, I have spoken to Paul Beirne of Toronto FC, who was also representing Joey Saputo and Bobby Lenarduzzi, and he informed me that the clubs are interested in taking over all aspects of the Voyageurs Cup themselves. I am not free to divulge everything we talked about, but here is a general outline of what would be involved: [*]They expect their competition to be very professional in terms of marketing, sponsorships, television and other media coverage, etc. [*]We would lose ownership of the Voyageurs Cup name and trophy. [*]We would lose all control over the Voyageurs Cup competition. We would have no involvement in running it and would have no say in how they run it. [*]A corporate sponsor's name would be added to the Voyageurs Cup name. [*]All of the above has to be considered permanent. We could try to include a stipulation that the Voyageurs Cup name and/or trophy are returned to us in case their competition is altered or discontinued altogether, but there is no guarantee of this. [*]Despite no longer having control over it, we could possibly retain a certain level of involvement. For example, I suggested that Voyageurs representatives take part in the trophy presentation and Paul thought that was a great idea. I suspect that they would be very open to other such suggestions. The new competition as described above is not yet finalized. In particular, there could be a major change that would be especially significant with respect to our decision on whether or not to hand off the Voyageurs Cup. So in thinking about and discussing this, we should for now assume the description I gave above, but keep in mind that it could change enough to warrant a re-evaluation. (I'm not sure how much I can say about this, so I'll leave it at that for now.) I'm not taking a vote, just gathering feedback: are you in favour or against handing off the Voyageurs Cup as described above? should we ask for certain conditions to be met before doing so? do you need further information? any suggestions for how we can continue to be involved in addition to presenting the trophy? etc. Please post your comments here, or e-mail them to me if you prefer, as soon as possible as there is a bit of urgency. I'd especially like to hear from the original donors to the Voyageurs Cup, or at least the people that were around from the beginning. Hopefully I've been clear enough, but please ask for clarifications if necessary. You can also ask questions about things I have not addressed, but I don't know if I'll be able to answer them. This needs to be a constructive and efficient discussion, so please don't go off topic. I will step in and moderate if necessary. As a final note I'd like to say that Paul expressed, on behalf of himself and the others, great respect for the Voyageurs and the Voyageurs Cup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivan Posted January 28, 2008 Share Posted January 28, 2008 Did the response to this topic shut the forum down or something? Anyway, let's try this again. As one of the original donors (with thanks to Winnipeg Fury for organizing the fundraising), I would be happy to let the pro teams control the V's Cup. The slight hesitation I have because of the unknown in DJT's post is outweighed by the fact that the Cup may go the way of the dinosaur if we don't use it for this purpose. Thanks for the update DJT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheeta Posted January 28, 2008 Share Posted January 28, 2008 For myself it seems a natural enough evolution. I think if we, that is to say the Voyageurs (and in particular DJT who has stewardship over the Vs Cup) can come to some sort of understanding with the pro-clubs as to how we'd like to see this initiative progress than I'm comfortable with abdicating the Vs Cup to the clubs provided the spirit and end goal of the Vs Cup is respected. Recognizing a Canadian national professional club champion through the head to head play of USL 1st Division and/or MLS clubs. The alternative is we can keep our competition for this website and our footballing community and the clubs can mint their own trophy and competition. But I think it's a tip of the hat in our direction for the years of dedication many here have shown and we shouldn't be necessarily cynical about passing-the-torch as it were. If the Vs Cup has outgrown the Vs, isn't that something we all should have hoped for? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jeffery S. Posted January 28, 2008 Share Posted January 28, 2008 My feeling is that we filled a gap and we did it well as the CSA and the clubs were not able to put such a competition-trophy together. Now, if they want to set up a competition, let them do so. But with their name, and on their terms. With their funds and their marketing, etc. And we should retain the Voyageurs Cup itself and its name and anything related for ourselves. I am pretty sure that the day will come when they'll cancel their cup, revoke it, argue over it or its monies, other teams will appear demanding to be involved, others will prefer not to play, others may be vetoed. And we will find that sooner than later, we'll have a reason to once again put the V-Cup into orbit for the best Canadian club as demonstrated in head to head competition. I am dead sure we will get to use the V-Cup again, and soon, for the reason it was originally designed for. We filled a gap, we did our job, the legacy is there. I think having our name on anything we do not control is not correct (especially since there were some of us who actually pitched in from the start and paid for it, plus all that incredible volunteer work). Let's not be flattered by them coming along and offering to keep our name. We work better as an independent organization and I think it should stay that way. And yes, I don't put special value on the possible promotional meaning of having the Voyageur name out in the press and news. I appreciate them wanting to appease us somewhat, to show some respect, but I have no problem with them going ahead with a Canadian Cup and making it work. Only without any reference to the Voyageurs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Posted January 28, 2008 Share Posted January 28, 2008 There *has* to be a clause that brings the Cup back to our ownership if the competition is discontinued. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
piltdownman Posted January 28, 2008 Share Posted January 28, 2008 I like the idea, but agree about getting it back if the tournament is discontinued or goes through a major change, that the Voyageurs have the option to get the trophy back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesW Posted January 28, 2008 Share Posted January 28, 2008 quote:Originally posted by Daniel There *has* to be a clause that brings the Cup back to our ownership if the competition is discontinued. I agree. We should not hand this over blindly. This is our cup, if we give it away blindly to never get it back... I don't like it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurosawa1555362267 Posted January 28, 2008 Share Posted January 28, 2008 Only one question, what will happen to the Cup if we say no??? It will die. I think we should agree to lend the name and the cup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cashcleaner Posted January 28, 2008 Share Posted January 28, 2008 There is absolutely no reason whatsoever to have a corporate sponsor attached added to the cup name. Think about it: Stanley Cup, Grey Cup, Vince Lombardi Trophy, etc. None of them need to be called anything else, so why should the Voyageurs Cup? I'm not a Voyageur (or am I?) but that is one stipulation I would make inflexible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cashcleaner Posted January 28, 2008 Share Posted January 28, 2008 There is absolutely no reason whatsoever to have a corporate sponsor attached added to the cup name. Think about it: Stanley Cup, Grey Cup, Vince Lombardi Trophy, etc. None of them need to be called anything else, so why should the Voyageurs Cup? I'm not a Voyageur (or am I?) but that is one stipulation I would make inflexible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sébastien Posted January 28, 2008 Share Posted January 28, 2008 Actually, one of the biggest tournaments in Canada, the Memorial Cup for junior hockey, is officially called the Mastercard Memorial Cup. Although I agree with you that corporate sponsorship added to a trophy's name is lame, lame lame, it is a great way to help finance events that have to rely on sponsors to live. As far as the Grey Cup, I remember hearing a couple of years that they were looking towards the possibility of adding a sponsorship on the Cup itself. However, that idea got shot down as soon as the public heard of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SthMelbRed Posted January 28, 2008 Share Posted January 28, 2008 First off, I don't think I, as a relative newcomer around here, should have much say in this decision. There are clearly some people who have made a great past commitment of time, effort, money, and emotion towards the creation of the Voyageurs Cup, and they should be the ones who make the ultimate decision. That being said, if they choose to relinquish control of the cup, I think it's imperative that they maintain some degree of input into the competition's future direction. Nobody knows what the future landscape of the sport is going to be in our country in the future. There may be more, or less, teams that may want to compete for the trophy at some point. Most importantly, if the proposed competition annexes the trophy, who's to say that it won't end up locked in a cupboard somewhere in a few years as a distant reminder of a defunct competition that had broad ambitions that never materialised. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martyr Posted January 28, 2008 Share Posted January 28, 2008 I don't think the Voyageurs Cup should be handed over to any other group... but, the Voyageurs could somehow negotiate an agreement (like a yearly lease) with an official group representing the professional clubs. Part of this agreement could be that they would not be allowed to change the name of cup in any way. This would allow the professional clubs to promote the matches and sell sponsorship, tv rights for the games that are played for the Cup. After all, the Cup is really worthless without prosperous, healthy clubs to compete for it. But ownership and control of 'The Voyageurs Cup' (The name and the trophy) should be held in trust by 'The Voyageurs'. However, there are some questions that need to be sorted if this is to happen. Have we (the Voyageurs) copyrighted the name? If not, are we officially organized in an legal way so that we can copyright the name? Or even officially negotiate to award a trophy? Can 'The Voyageurs' legally own anything without any official articles of incorporation or membership structure? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crashvegas Posted January 28, 2008 Share Posted January 28, 2008 Speaking as a long time lurker, occasional contributer, and stalwart fan of canadian soccer (in all aspects) I support the idea of the Voyageurs Cup being the trophy granted to a Canadian Champion. However, to relinquish total control with no input on the structure/spirit of the competition makes me (as a fan) a little nervous. What will the tournament qualifications be? I for one would want to see something close to an open competition ala England's FA cup where almost everyone can dare to dream - yet another tool to inspire our youth soccer. It is extremely flattering and I am glad that the top professionals in this country are opening their arms to embrace the grassroots fans. However, I want the Voyageurs to negotiate for a share of control and produce a competition that serves our whole soccer community and not only the top pro teams. With having said that you will have my support to proceed however you believe is in the best interests of the Voyageurs and the Voyageurs Cup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winnipeg Fury Posted January 28, 2008 Share Posted January 28, 2008 "are you in favour or against handing off the Voyageurs Cup as described above?" YES As one of the original individuals behind this endevour, I can say that it was launched, simply because there was a void to fill and we were sick of seeing nothing accomplished. We have succeeded in that task. Now we have three very respectful professional organizations wanting to take it and run with it. I am also assuming (which I may be wrong) that their new tournament may also be broader in scope, perhaps also including top amateur clubs, sem-pro,etc. DJT could maybe clarify, if he can. (I suspect the clubs want a proper Cup competition, so under som e firmula, this would have to be achieved with the lower clubs.) And this is exactly what we wanted all these years ! For them to retain the Voyageurs Cup is a massive compliment to us, and our tournament, and will mean the Voyageurs Cup will grow and possibly become the most important Cup in Canadian domestic soccer. How could we want anymore ? It's a great idea, and the fact that we will lose ownership is obvious. The simple fact that it will be retained as the Voyageurs Cup (regardless of sponsorship) means we will always own a piece of it. It will become history, and we are at the core of that history. I don't think it would hurt for us to request that in case the tournament falters, that we would retain the Voyageurs Cup in it's entirety. That only makes sense. Make sure when we hand-off the V-Cup, the case goes with it. The case was very expensive and does a great job of protecting the Cup. It's part of the Cup. I would also appreciate all details possible. It's been a while Danny, call me sometime.........1-204-475-5659. WF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonovision Posted January 28, 2008 Share Posted January 28, 2008 quote:Originally posted by Kurosawa Only one question, what will happen to the Cup if we say no??? It will die. I think we should agree to lend the name and the cup. This is the best argument, I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mlsintoronto Posted January 28, 2008 Share Posted January 28, 2008 just a quick word to thank you all for recieving this in the spirit in which it is intended. We - the clubs - don't even know what the format is for the concacaf thing...we know it is coming but have no details yet. This whole discussion may be moot if we don't have the right to stage the competition. Right now there are more questions than answers. But our intention was to do what you are doing - get you talking about it. We understand completely both sides of the discussion. I'm not sure how you guys are going to proceed - I assume that is for the 'founders' to discuss...If this becomes more urgent or if I learn more about the tournament and there are details that I can share I'll chime in here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winnipeg Fury Posted January 28, 2008 Share Posted January 28, 2008 quote:Originally posted by mlsintoronto just a quick word to thank you all for recieving this in the spirit in which it is intended. We - the clubs - don't even know what the format is for the concacaf thing...we know it is coming but have no details yet. This whole discussion may be moot if we don't have the right to stage the competition. Right now there are more questions than answers. But our intention was to do what you are doing - get you talking about it. We understand completely both sides of the discussion. I'm not sure how you guys are going to proceed - I assume that is for the 'founders' to discuss...If this becomes more urgent or if I learn more about the tournament and there are details that I can share I'll chime in here. Can you tell us if you are trying to essentially set-up a broader version of the Voyageur Cup, that would also include the top amateur club representative and perhaps some of the second-tier clubs from the PCSL/CSL ? I realise your answers may be in theory only, but would appreciate your broader goal/vision for the Voyageur Cup ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mlsintoronto Posted January 28, 2008 Share Posted January 28, 2008 Thats one of the issues we're unclear on as it pertains to the concacaf champions league. IF the Voyageur Cup was the name of the tournament to qualify for the champions league then we'd have to abide by the rules governing that league. My personal take (if there were no outside influences) would be for the 3 teams to get the event off the ground and gain a foothold in the broader public consciousness and then introduce the connection to the lower tiers. I think that is an important differentiator that sets soccer apart from hockey, (Canadian) football, basketball etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivan Posted January 28, 2008 Share Posted January 28, 2008 quote:Originally posted by Winnipeg Fury "are you in favour or against handing off the Voyageurs Cup as described above?" YES As one of the original individuals behind this endevour, I can say that it was launched, simply because there was a void to fill and we were sick of seeing nothing accomplished. We have succeeded in that task. Now we have three very respectful professional organizations wanting to take it and run with it. I am also assuming (which I may be wrong) that their new tournament may also be broader in scope, perhaps also including top amateur clubs, sem-pro,etc. DJT could maybe clarify, if he can. (I suspect the clubs want a proper Cup competition, so under som e firmula, this would have to be achieved with the lower clubs.) And this is exactly what we wanted all these years ! For them to retain the Voyageurs Cup is a massive compliment to us, and our tournament, and will mean the Voyageurs Cup will grow and possibly become the most important Cup in Canadian domestic soccer. How could we want anymore ? It's a great idea, and the fact that we will lose ownership is obvious. The simple fact that it will be retained as the Voyageurs Cup (regardless of sponsorship) means we will always own a piece of it. It will become history, and we are at the core of that history. I don't think it would hurt for us to request that in case the tournament falters, that we would retain the Voyageurs Cup in it's entirety. That only makes sense. Make sure when we hand-off the V-Cup, the case goes with it. The case was very expensive and does a great job of protecting the Cup. It's part of the Cup. I would also appreciate all details possible. It's been a while Danny, call me sometime.........1-204-475-5659. WF Very well said, WF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ray Posted January 28, 2008 Share Posted January 28, 2008 quote:Originally posted by Cashcleaner There is absolutely no reason whatsoever to have a corporate sponsor attached added to the cup name. Think about it: Stanley Cup, Grey Cup, Vince Lombardi Trophy, etc. None of them need to be called anything else, so why should the Voyageurs Cup? I'm not a Voyageur (or am I?) but that is one stipulation I would make inflexible. I agree with this sentiment. Let the pro clubs organize their "Company XYZ"-sponsored Canadian Soccer Championship as they see fit but keep the original name of the cup. And yes, there should be the stipulation that the Voyageurs get the trophy back if the championship is no longer played. Apart from this it would be a great legacy for the Voyageurs to participate in the long sought after soccer championship. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarrek Posted January 28, 2008 Share Posted January 28, 2008 quote:Originally posted by jonovision This is the best argument, I think. Agreed. Time to evolve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ted Posted January 28, 2008 Share Posted January 28, 2008 I agree with everything Winnipeg Fury said. Donate the cup with our name attached. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesW Posted January 28, 2008 Share Posted January 28, 2008 quote:Originally posted by Kurosawa I think we should agree to lend the name and the cup. As long as we are only lending the cup and not giving it to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mpenza Posted January 28, 2008 Share Posted January 28, 2008 You can't just give it away and watch it become some kind of sponsored money-making trophy without getting something in return for the supporters. Because, from what I read, it really sounds like : GIVE us the cup, leave our offices, close the door on your way out and never come back. Sure, the name might live on (next to Carlsberg or Nutella or whatever), but in the long run, the supporters will not get the recognition they deserve. Besides, they could remove the Voyageurs' name altogether whenever they want to, since you will not have anything to say about that anyway once you give it up. Some might argue that we'll get a canadian open cup out of it, which already is a lot, and they're right. But let's face it: this tournament is going to happen whether the trophy is a part of it or not. Nah... you really need to get something in return, or else it just doesn't make sense. That's my two cents. I'm not part of the V's so in the end, do what you feel is the right thing to do and I'll just respect that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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