Gordon Posted January 29, 2008 Share Posted January 29, 2008 quote:Originally posted by MediaGuy Now, here we are X years later. The clubs have stepped it up and are ready to move forward--with a CONCACAF Champions League spot to play for, no less. Refreshingly, representatives from those clubs understand the role the Vs played in keeping this on the agenda and in supporting the domestic game. They've offered to keep the name and tradition of the little trophy that was built by the fans. I think that's great...it's a bigger legacy than anyone on these boards dared to dream back in the day. Actually it is still smaller than most of us dared to dream, which was that it become a true national open cup with the CONCACAF Champions tourney as part of the prize. What I do see, is that most of the people who contributed at the time, myself included, who are quite willing to turn this over to the Clubs, but wanting assurance that A) the name remains attached even if a sponsors is also attached and that if the clubs bail on this for whatever reason, we regain possession and all rights. All of us have been around long enough to have seen things start with promise for Canadian soccer only to fade quickly. I dont think that these are unreasonable conditions. I'll reiterate, I do not beleive that we should expect, or ask, for any sort of financial compensation in this endeavor, but I do believe that we have some basic interests at stake that are easily protected without any risk to the clubs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ed Posted January 29, 2008 Share Posted January 29, 2008 quote:Originally posted by morbital i think we should just keep the voyageurs cup as is, a derby between mon and van (and hopefully down the road a mls derby with tfc included) i dont see the need to lose a trophy... why have one when you can have 2... I'm with you. TFC can bring in an American cup to hand out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gian-Luca Posted January 29, 2008 Share Posted January 29, 2008 quote:Originally posted by Gordon What I do see, is that most of the people who contributed at the time, myself included, who are quite willing to turn this over to the Clubs, but wanting assurance that A) the name remains attached even if a sponsors is also attached and that if the clubs bail on this for whatever reason, we regain possession and all rights. And as another one who contributed to the V-Cup at the time, I would also give the nod of approval for going in this direction. I would agree that's it's a wonderful opportunity to grow the name of the supporters group to become even better known, and frankly, we need all of the supporters we can get in Canada. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Number6 Posted January 29, 2008 Share Posted January 29, 2008 If it is just about people who had the money at the time to contribute, then why is this even being discussed? I am also not fully anti-corporation but we should protect our interests as a grassroots volunteer organization. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matthew Posted January 29, 2008 Share Posted January 29, 2008 I think the obvious question is if we don't want to offer the trophy for the new competition, what do we do with it? We filled a void and now it's moving forward, but it has history. I would think Montreal has a sense of pride in holding it and want to retain it. And Paul is right. We need them more than they need us. This is a chance for our little trophy to carry on in the purpose we wanted in a capacity I never dreamed of when we started talking about sending cheques. There's a balance in setting up guarantees to preserve what we were looking for and being too stubborn that they cut us out of the deal. There are a lot of obvious legal issues to iron out and I'm wondering how we go about doing that. Cup ownership, our existence as an entity and some sort of contract between the tournament (whatever body that is) and us (whoever 'we' are) should be a must, but I have no idea how to broker it. I hate corporate sponsorship, but I think it's a fact of life. As noted there's the MasterCard Memorial Cup, the FedEx Orange Bowl, the Bell Canadian Open, etc, etc. But the over-riding thing in those examples is what people call it. Sure the broadcasters will call it the full name, but in second references it's usually the short non-corporate form. And fans almost always go with the short name. And most of us remember the Mita Cup. I'd rather have the Mita Voygeurs' Cup that most people call the Voyageurs Cup rather than just the Mita Cup. In short I'm for this and excited about it. But there are an awful lot of questions and red tape to navigate. cheers, matthew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winnipeg Fury Posted January 30, 2008 Share Posted January 30, 2008 I think it's basically unanimous amoung the contributors (there was approximately 40 or so) that have posted, that we are in agreement that the Voyageurs Cup should be handed over to the pro clubs wanting it for the Champions League qualifying tournament. I believe we all would like to see our tournament evolve for the betterment of Canadian soccer. That was exactly the reason we created it, in the first place. I think everyone would also like some assurances, even if it's verbal, that if things don't work out, the Voyageurs retain the Cup. Those conditions shouldn't be too hard to live with and the rational is obvious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Number6 Posted January 30, 2008 Share Posted January 30, 2008 Nothing wrong with attempting to protect our interests. They are going to make a ton of money off this and we will not be better off. Do not think we need them more than they need us. They need us and we need them. We are all in it together. I really think we can get more than our name on the cup which we could then use to promote supporting soccer. Anyway, I have said what should be said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martyr Posted January 30, 2008 Share Posted January 30, 2008 quote:Originally posted by Number6 Nothing wrong with attempting to protect our interests. They are going to make a ton of money off this and we will not be better off. If we are being very optimistic I think you might see these clubs truly make a surplus out of this particular venture after maybe 20 years. That would expose an a generation of new fans to this championship - and maybe we'll have something like the media hype given to the Grey Cup each year by then. But any money generated should go back into the club to enable them to eventually compete with at least 2nd tier European clubs for players... otherwise the standard of play will eventually not warrant the hype and it will die. But this will only happen if the fans pay for the tickets, buy the shirts and watch the games on TV (perhaps PPV). The most we can expect as a group in exchange for the trophy (one with a ready-made history and legitimacy in the market) will be a voice in protecting the interests of the trophy and the game from a fan's point of view... and about how much money we will give the clubs - not how much they can give us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L.T. Posted February 1, 2008 Share Posted February 1, 2008 As an original contributor, I also support handing over the cup. The legacy will outlast any other perks we may try to negotiate out of them... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winnipeg Fury Posted February 1, 2008 Share Posted February 1, 2008 The following are the Grandfathers of the Voyageurs Cup. People from coast to coast and some outside of Canada. Without these individuals and their generous donations, it would never have happened. The list is in no particular order, just off my original master-list: Ian Kennet Lorne Smith Ivan Glenn Tyler Adamsky Tony Quarisa DJT James Macleod Chris Moore Mark Christie Gian-Luca Mike D Jason Kmet Ed Swain Krammerhead Mathew Gourlie Cheech Wizard James Stewart Andrew Varden Erwin Landsberger Reza Gordon Twigg Moosehead Marc Peverini Ramon Lachmansignh Stuart Wallington Jake Cadigal Jarrek Greg MacDonald Mark Bick Richard Roze Michael G Nazz Catania Ted Williams David Assaff It's Called Futbol Matt Bihn Bill Hrick xoso Doyle Lino Terra Robin Glover Dwayne Cole Frank Arcuri Marc Francisco Martin Rose Bill Spiers Inside Soccer Magazine Jeffrey Swartz Behrouz Dehizadeh Nolberto Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jeffery S. Posted February 1, 2008 Share Posted February 1, 2008 quote:Originally posted by ted And that is all. There was no talk of local supporters groups or who was from where. We were all Voyageurs. I was too broke at that time to send any money but I saw only one single group, The Voyageurs, contributing time and money. As for who owns the cup. Morally the Voyageurs own the cup, legally it is probably the property of whoever physically has it in their possession unless they signed some sort of contract with another person or group. And not to say "I told you so", well, OK maybe I'm saying exactly that, but this very issue of who owns the cup was brought up years ago when discussing registering the Voyageurs as a legal entity. I feel this way too about where it came from. It was only the initiative of this board, as a place where all Canadian fans could find a common ground. As it still is. Of those contributing either by encouraging the idea, working on it, or paying into it, there were also a few "friends" from the press or perhaps other soccer entities who either posted here or had their articles regularly posted, or felt some kind of affiliation. If I remember correctly. In any case there were just a few of those, the majority were posters on the board and many (most?) are still around. There is also a Women's Cup (West and East in fact), so there is a continuity there. Will we have to wait for Concacaf to set up a women's champions league (as exists in Europe) for them to come along and remember that someone cared about a national club champ for the ladies too years before? Edit: funny just before I post on who contributed WF posts confirming it, mostly. I say, let them make an offer. Let's listen to it. If we are going to donate it or loan it for this purpose, it is not to the clubs. It is to the CSA, who sanction the competition. And they would have it in custody for the function we donate it to them for. Unless we award the Cup to the winner without any CSA backing and the clubs gladly accept the award, as they have (Impact has) until now. But I think we could move beyond that option. For me it is best that the CSA sign an agreement that they will award the Cup to the winner of the tournament or competition they sanction to be the Canadian Cup winner, it will still be called the Voyageurs Cup, the history will not be distorted in press releases, and if they ever stop doing the competition, it will come back to us. They have custody of the Cup for this specific function. Is that about right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winnipeg Fury Posted February 1, 2008 Share Posted February 1, 2008 quote:Originally posted by Jeffrey S. I feel this way too about where it came from. It was only the initiative of this board, as a place where all Canadian fans could find a common ground. As it still is. Of those contributing either by encouraging the idea, working on it, or paying into it, there were also a few "friends" from the press or perhaps other soccer entities who either posted here or had their articles regularly posted, or felt some kind of affiliation. If I remember correctly. In any case there were just a few of those, the majority were posters on the board and many (most?) are still around. For me it is best that the CSA sign an agreement that they will award the Cup to the winner of the tournament or competition they sanction to be the Canadian Cup winner, it will still be called the Voyageurs Cup, the history will not be distorted in press releases, and if they ever stop doing the competition, it will come back to us. They have custody of the Cup for this specific function. Is that about right? Yes, I think you have it bang-on. We are all essentially saying the same thing, with slight variations as we don't know any further details. We know it's official now, so the details will have to be ironed-out quickly. I'm assuming we will be approached when there are more details. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Franky Posted February 2, 2008 Share Posted February 2, 2008 quote:Originally posted by Winnipeg Fury The following are the Grandfathers of the Voyageurs Cup. People from coast to coast and some outside of Canada. Without these individuals and their generous donations, it would never have happened. The list is in no particular order, just off my original master-list: Ian Kennet Lorne Smith Ivan Glenn Tyler Adamsky Tony Quarisa DJT James Macleod Chris Moore Mark Christie Gian-Luca Mike D Jason Kmet Ed Swain Krammerhead Mathew Gourlie Cheech Wizard James Stewart Andrew Varden Erwin Landsberger Reza Gordon Twigg Moosehead Marc Peverini Ramon Lachmansignh Stuart Wallington Jake Cadigal Jarrek Greg MacDonald Mark Bick Richard Roze Michael G Nazz Catania Ted Williams David Assaff It's Called Futbol Matt Bihn Bill Hrick xoso Doyle Lino Terra Robin Glover Dwayne Cole Frank Arcuri Marc Francisco Martin Rose Bill Spiers Inside Soccer Magazine Jeffrey Swartz Behrouz Dehizadeh Nolberto WF, Grandfather!! you are making me feel really old. how about just, Fathers?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Franky Posted February 2, 2008 Share Posted February 2, 2008 ohh and my suggestion as one of (many dedicated) contributers to the Voyageurs Cup especially during those dark ages of Canadian soccer. As long as the term 'Voyageurs' stands as the symbol for the event. Also, take my advice, don't suffice with just a handshake and a pat on the back. The story of this trophy has tremendous merit that is great for public consumption. Don't sell your efforts short and all those tireless years of commitment, for nothing in return. i have come to realize this fairly recently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winnipeg Fury Posted February 2, 2008 Share Posted February 2, 2008 quote:Originally posted by Franky WF, Grandfather!! you are making me feel really old. how about just, Fathers?? Franky, it was nice meeting you at the historic TFC - Chicago Fire game. I'm still seeing seat cushions in my dreams ! Great meeting some of the old Voyageurs/U-Sector crew, many of whom were behind this endevour. Drop by home more often........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cashcleaner Posted February 2, 2008 Share Posted February 2, 2008 quote:Originally posted by Winnipeg Fury I think it's basically unanimous amoung the contributors (there was approximately 40 or so) that have posted, that we are in agreement that the Voyageurs Cup should be handed over to the pro clubs wanting it for the Champions League qualifying tournament. I believe we all would like to see our tournament evolve for the betterment of Canadian soccer. That was exactly the reason we created it, in the first place. I think everyone would also like some assurances, even if it's verbal, that if things don't work out, the Voyageurs retain the Cup. Those conditions shouldn't be too hard to live with and the rational is obvious. Sounds fair to me. I can't think of a good reason why this shouldn't be acceptable to the three clubs involved. Though I would strongly recommend getting the details in writing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJB Posted February 3, 2008 Share Posted February 3, 2008 I don't object to someone taking over this trophy and bettering it. Who will be in charge of this though? One club? Three clubs? A few points also: 1. There should be a provision that requires this trophy to be awarded every year. If there is no cup competition, then we should be able to award it to a champion that WE see fit. 2. We need assurances that this will be a cup that can grow. I don't want to see teams excluded from competing for it. If one club is in charge of the trophy, there is nothing stopping them from barring another club from competing, simply based on a personal grudge. Far fetched, I know, but still a concern. 3. If at all possible, we should have some Voyageurs be appointed as trustees of the Cup. Rules can be written up, and these individuals can help to ensure that the rules are followed. These people/person can be at the award ceremony too. 4. If the competition is dropped, then we get the cup back. 5. The people who get the cup should be required to look into expanding the competition to an Open Cup format within the next ___ years. This is our trophy, and we can't just go and give it away blindly. I think that it is better served in the hands of those with more resources, but we can't sell it's soul. We need assurances. Big assurances. I'm afraid that we'll give it away, and it'll be contested for one season, and then it'll die. What a kick in the teeth that would be for the people that worked so hard to establish the Voyageurs name, and get this trophy off the ground. But as long as we get assurances, I say it's ok. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N-A Posted February 3, 2008 Share Posted February 3, 2008 Thanks WF for the posting the list of names I couldn't even remember I made a donation all those years ago how bad is that :-( Anyways my view is mixed I have been following this for a while and I'm not sure what to say. I think like most on here. If the Voyageurs Cup has to have a sponsor so be it. Most cups in all sports have them aslong as we can keep our name along side it thats cool. Again like others if this thing does not work out we get the cup back that would work for me. Maybe if we can have some involvement if we decide to give the cup away that would be great. I think its time for someone to draw up a list of the points we have all made on here to see what we have. Has anyone thought about taking a vote on 'keep the cup or pass the cup' ?. Just to get a general view and thoughts on the matter. I'm not sure if that would be just the 'Grandfathers of the Voyageurs Cup' or include everyone. It can't do any harm. Any Ideas? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldtimer Posted February 4, 2008 Share Posted February 4, 2008 quote:Originally posted by RJB 2. We need assurances that this will be a cup that can grow. I don't want to see teams excluded from competing for it. If one club is in charge of the trophy, there is nothing stopping them from barring another club from competing, simply based on a personal grudge. Far fetched, I know, but still a concern. I think the answer to this is post #1 in this thread: quote: We would lose all control over the Voyageurs Cup competition. We would have no involvement in running it and would have no say in how they run it. So any condition (other than perhaps the return of the cup should competition be ended) will be a no-go IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jeffery S. Posted February 4, 2008 Share Posted February 4, 2008 quote:Originally posted by Oldtimer I think the answer to this is post #1 in this thread: So any condition (other than perhaps the return of the cup should competition be ended) will be a no-go IMO. The thing is we never ran the Voyageurs Cup in the sense that we set up the matches or the competition. We simply chose the ones already scheduled that would be relevant for the competition and that was it. It seemed at times that USL was sensitive to making sure there would be head to head home and away fixtures between Canadian teams, but I am not sure we ever had a confirmation from them that they were doing it for us. Perhaps it was just a gesture to the Canadian teams (including our long-lost Albertan bretheren). I think this is what that condition means. We don't decide how the Canadian Cup champion is decided, we don't choose the fixtures. The CSA does that with the clubs. That seems perfectly logical. They want to ensure that we don't go set up or sanction a parallel set of matches and award the trophy to the winner of those. And of course that is not our intention. So I don't see the problem here, we will accept the Canada Cup championship as convened by the clubs with the CSA, but we will reserve the right to voice our opinion on how it is run. And that should include: 1) not giving the trophy to TFC outright just because they are in MSL; 2) not limiting the competition to TO, Mtl and Van indefinitely, ie, finding a way eventually to allow for other teams to get involved. A series of early round between the PCSL, CSL and PDL clubs would be a start, they play down and we get a fourth rep. Similar to the US Open Cup, where the MLS teams get involved in later rounds. I would be happy to see a fourth team chosen by eliminatory rounds, then that fourth going to a national tournament hosted by one of the teams run a bit like the Intercontinental Cup, two semis on a Thursday or Friday, winners go to the final on the Sunday. If they want to seed and have the MLS club play the winner of the national run-off for the lower level teams, I don't mind, just as I would accept a draw between the four clubs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrennanFan Posted February 4, 2008 Share Posted February 4, 2008 If MLSE pours money into this, giving serious value to the name "The Voyageurs Cup", we really have no right in retaining ownership if the tournament dies in a couple years. The name will be theirs because they invested into it. If they agree to use the name, they will own the name. im fine with this, personally. odds are the tournament will grow and i would be perfectly happy if the V's name was attached to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Posted February 4, 2008 Share Posted February 4, 2008 quote:Originally posted by BrennanFan If MLSE pours money into this, giving serious value to the name "The Voyageurs Cup", we really have no right in retaining ownership if the tournament dies in a couple years. The name will be theirs because they invested into it. So don't let it die out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarrek Posted February 4, 2008 Share Posted February 4, 2008 We're not even a legal entity, so it will be very interesting in how it draws out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CanadasBest Posted February 4, 2008 Share Posted February 4, 2008 quote:Originally posted by Jarrek We're not even a legal entity, so it will be very interesting in how it draws out. No membership guidelines let alone a legal entity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Dave Posted February 4, 2008 Share Posted February 4, 2008 quote:Originally posted by Gian-Luca And as another one who contributed to the V-Cup at the time, I would also give the nod of approval for going in this direction. I would agree that's it's a wonderful opportunity to grow the name of the supporters group to become even better known, and frankly, we need all of the supporters we can get in Canada. I also contributed a small amount to the Cup back in the day (I'm "David Assaff" on Winnipeg Fury's contributor list). I agree with Gian-Luca and Gordon. we should embrace this opportunity to have our Cup and our name take on the role that we all hoped it eventually would. It's refreshing and really quite remarkable that professional clubs are showing us this respect and recognition. You'd never see the Leafs or Blue Jays do something like this. Like G-L and Gordon, I do however feel that we need to insist on two small conditions: 1. The phrase "Voyageurs Cup" remain part of the name (along with a corporate sponsor) 2. Ownership of the name and trophy revert to the Voyageurs if no competition is held for two successive years. I'm happy to accept verbal assurances on these points. No need to make this legally problematic... we are dealing on goodwill here. These shouldn't present any problems to the clubs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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