Voyageurs Cup 2008 and beyond

[RJB]

quote:Originally posted by BrennanFan

If MLSE pours money into this, giving serious value to the name "The Voyageurs Cup", we really have no right in retaining ownership if the tournament dies in a couple years. The name will be theirs because they invested into it.

If they agree to use the name, they will own the name. im fine with this, personally. odds are the tournament will grow and i would be perfectly happy if the V's name was attached to it.

I'm not OK with MLSE owning the Voyageurs Cup name just because they invest heavily in a competition that will probably only benefit them. They will invest in it because there is money involved for them. The Voyageurs have worked hard to create an identity, and we are finally getting recognition from people in the media and the soccer community, and to give the trophy away to a large corporation is wrong and is a backwards step. Any donation of the trophy needs to come with a serious amount of conditions to ensure the credibility of our name.

[RJB]

Also, I think this is something that needs to be really presented to the group. Ask these people to make a presentation to the Voyageurs, and then we should vote on it. I don't want to see the trophy be magically given away without some type of official consensus.

[BrennanFan]

quote:Originally posted by RJB

Also, I think this is something that needs to be really presented to the group. Ask these people to make a presentation to the Voyageurs, and then we should vote on it. I don't want to see the trophy be magically given away without some type of official consensus.

the thing is they don't need us. they are basically doing us a favour by even considering using the name 'voyageurs cup'.

i just don't see how, after they've invested into the name, gaining public, media and sponsorship recognition across the country, they would ever let us have it back. businesses don't usually let valuable assets go just for nothing.

but in any event, this is all moot because the tournament will not likely die. TFC, Vancouver, and the Impact aren't going anywhere, and neither is the concacaf champions cup. Im just saying we shouldn't let this one point stop us from giving them our cup.

[Guest Jeffery S.]

quote:Originally posted by gwallace76

No membership guidelines let alone a legal entity.

We are not a legal entity nor have membership guidelines, but we came up with a cup and awarded it to the winner of a competition we dreamt up, and it was not rejected. The press made note of it. As they have of many Voyageur and other related fan initiatives.

So if they have been receptive to a non-entity before, why would they not be now? How would we be somehow less legitimate now than then?

[CanadasBest]

quote:Originally posted by Jeffrey S.

We are not a legal entity nor have membership guidelines, but we came up with a cup and awarded it to the winner of a competition we dreamt up, and it was not rejected. The press made note of it. As they have of many Voyageur and other related fan initiatives.

So if they have been receptive to a non-entity before, why would they not be now? How would we be somehow less legitimate now than then?

Don't get me wrong, as a group we've done some pretty amazing things. To my knowledge our group has not entered into any binding agreements with any individuals or organizations. We're going into new territory and it will be interesting to see how things proceed.

[Cashcleaner]

^ Hopefully things will proceed quickly, though. If the three clubs and the CSA are serious about this, they're going to want to move as quickly as possible. I'm not sure who they're going to contact directly, but my bet is that someone is going to get a formal call asking for a quick "yes" or "no".

As I mentioned, I think it would be great for the cup to go towards the proposed 3-team tourney, but I do think the V's should push for some straight-forward conditions.

[Guest Dave]

That's the thing. I think it needs to be yes or no. and quickly.

We all have reservations, or conditions, or various "ifs" and "buts"...

But we'll never reach consensus that way. How about we each try wrestling with the question on our own, but then try to boil it down to either a simple "yes" or "no", and present it here for tabulation?

Simple, and a bit of a blunt instrument. Also somewhat simplistic and unsatisfactory.... but necessary.

So, if I was forced into a simple "yes" or "no" answer, I'd vote YES.

(no conditions or reservations).

What say ye, Voyageurs?

[RJB]

The Voyageurs Cup should be kept in our ownership. We've worked too hard to create an identity for ourselves, and people have invested too much to just give away something that is our flagship asset and have our name be potentially sullied as a result. People are starting to finally know who we are, and to just allow the term Voyageurs Cup to be used willy-nilly by someone else is wrong in my opinion.

Any deal needs to contain assurances/clauses that allow the cup to be used under guidelines that we see fit. Also, it should remain in our ownership; we should only be loaning it. Without assurances, it's a poor thing in my opinion. I've outlined key assurances we need in my original post.

Without assurances, I say no.

[matthew]

I get the sense from Paul that there's a lot of details to be worked out before we even come into the picture.

Still I'm wondering what kind of timeline we're looking at for making a decision on this.

cheers,

matthew

[tmcmurph]

New to the forum, been here only a few months but I like the spirit and you guys have got things done. The old line about "having done so much for so long with so little now makes you able to do anything with nothing" definitely applies to The Voyageurs.

So please take this suggestion as just an idea that popped into my head and feel free to discard as you see fit. No harm, no foul.

Have the Voyageur Cup become the amateur/semi-pro club national championship much like it is. The winner of the Voyageur Cup gets to play in with the big 3 (TFC, Van, Mtl) for the CONCACAF spot from Canada.

So all USL-1 and MLS Canadian teams get an entry automaticly and the amateur/semi-pro clubs playoff to win the VC and a spot.

I'm not sure how the regional winners will be selected or what happens when we have more than 3 USL-1/MLS teams.

Then they can call the new national championship whatever they want and the Voyageur Cup will be mentioned with it every year. At least for one game. You get to keep control of it and it lives on.

Just a thought.

[The Ref]

If the cup is handed over it should be in an official ceremony where media is invited and a couple of speeches given. Perhaps a document signed as well. A ceremony as such adds importance and prestige to us and makes it clear that it is OUR cup.

[Daniel]

quote:Originally posted by Winnipeg Fury

2008 will be the 6th year for the Voyageurs Cup.

7th

2002-2007 inclusively = 6 editions (all won by the Montreal Impact)

[Winnipeg Fury]

quote:Originally posted by Daniel

7th

2002-2007 inclusively = 6 editions (all won by the Montreal Impact)

correct

[Winnipeg Fury]

quote:Originally posted by Dave

That's the thing. I think it needs to be yes or no. and quickly.

We all have reservations, or conditions, or various "ifs" and "buts"...

But we'll never reach consensus that way. How about we each try wrestling with the question on our own, but then try to boil it down to either a simple "yes" or "no", and present it here for tabulation?

Simple, and a bit of a blunt instrument. Also somewhat simplistic and unsatisfactory.... but necessary.

So, if I was forced into a simple "yes" or "no" answer, I'd vote YES.

(no conditions or reservations).

What say ye, Voyageurs?

I think the answer is already in, and it is a resounding 'yes.'

Like yourself, everyone that contributed to the Voyageurs Cup, is in favour and has stated 'yes.'

At this point there is nothing to do but wait for Paul to post the response on this site. I am assuming all will be answered and we will have some concrete details.

[RJB]

quote:Originally posted by Winnipeg Fury

Like yourself, everyone that contributed to the Voyageurs Cup, is in favour and has stated 'yes.'

If opinions that matter are only of those who paid for the Voyageurs Cup, then I'm disappointed. I consider myself a Voyageur, and a proud one at that. These people are going to use our name... err, your name(isn't that what you're saying?) without any input from this group and I don't think that is right.

[Martyr]

quote:Originally posted by RJB

If opinions that matter are only of those who paid for the Voyageurs Cup, then I'm disappointed. I consider myself a Voyageur, and a proud one at that. These people are going to use our name... err, your name(isn't that what you're saying?) without any input from this group and I don't think that is right.

I don't think that people that didn't actually contribute financially should be excluded from anything... If you feel you are a Voyageur then you are one and your opinion counts just as much as anyone else's. After all, that was 6 years or so ago. I think some of the more active Voyageurs on this board were still in elementary school then!

[Martyr]

quote:Originally posted by RJB

If opinions that matter are only of those who paid for the Voyageurs Cup, then I'm disappointed. I consider myself a Voyageur, and a proud one at that. These people are going to use our name... err, your name(isn't that what you're saying?) without any input from this group and I don't think that is right.

I don't think that people that didn't actually contribute financially should be excluded from anything... If you feel you are a Voyageur then you are one and your opinion counts just as much as anyone else's. After all, that was 6 years or so ago. I think some of the more active Voyageurs on this board were still in elementary school then!

[Fort York Redcoat1555362293]

I am not an official member but love what this group has done and is doing. My perspective should be taken as someone who loves the game but is outside any political influence within the groups involved. I believe what you have done thus far is to your credit and the fact you have received the respect you deserve is your victory. I feel to lend your name to this trophy will taint your name. Your name will be superceded and overwhelmed by the sponsor involved. If you continue in your efforts the exposure of multiple levels in Canadian Soccer will benifit by a possible second trophy highlighting smaller Canadian teams and leagues. I hope in the near future we have threads concerning how frustrating it is so many Canadian teams want to play in the "Labatt's" cup vs our Voyageurs cup. Good Luck and I'll be following!

[Martyr]

It's seems this competition might already be taking on the Voyageurs Cup name. Mike Miller from Inside Soccer Magazine spoke to Simon Gatti of the Impact and said...

quote:The Impact defender feels that getting this early season competition against teams in mid-season form will benefit the Impact in preparation for the 2008 season. Gatti is looking forward to playing against TFC and Vancouver in Voyageur’s Cup.

The winner of this competition will qualify for the new CONCACAF Champions Cup. If the Impact advances, Montreal will face other CONCACAF club teams.

http://www.insidesoccer.net/?p=896

It's not clear if Gatti called it the Voyageurs Cup or Mike Miller just wrote the name into the piece. Gatti's comment was paraphrased. If it was Gatti it would be quite interesting that the players are already referring to the Competition by the Voyageurs name. Perhaps if Mike posts on this board he can clarify that for us.

[Winnipeg Fury]

quote:Originally posted by RJB

If opinions that matter are only of those who paid for the Voyageurs Cup, then I'm disappointed. I consider myself a Voyageur, and a proud one at that. These people are going to use our name... err, your name(isn't that what you're saying?) without any input from this group and I don't think that is right.

Are the 'opinions of people that paid the ONLY ones that matter.' Of course not. You can post and express yourself as much as you like. At no time has this been an exclusive discussion. You have the same opportunity to influence the debate as anyone else. (Although true, I could BS you with this politically correct paragraph, and leave it at that. But I will be honest).

For me *personally*, I care far more what people think, that actually contributed to the Voyageurs Cup. It was their financial sacrifice and vision that created the Voyageurs Cup, without which there would be no Voyageurs Cup.

When push comes to shove, those are the voices that I am (personally) looking for to take direction. I don't think that is unreasonable, and it makes complete sense. Particularly on this forum, when direction (historically speaking) is very difficult to ascertain (and anyone that was around for the original debate regarding the Voyageurs Cup will know what I am talking about).

Fortunetly, the vast majority of people on this board are all of the same opinion (whether they contributed or not) . As Dave has said, it is a YES vote. There is no sense debating details that are unknown. The vote has been yes, and until mlsintoronto (Paul) gets back to us with some details, there isn't much too debate.

[RJB]

quote:Originally posted by Winnipeg Fury

Are the 'opinions of people that paid the ONLY ones that matter.' Of course not. You can post and express yourself as much as you like. At no time has this been an exclusive discussion. You have the same opportunity to influence the debate as anyone else. (Although true, I could BS you with this politically correct paragraph, and leave it at that. But I will be honest).

For me *personally*, I care far more what people think, that actually contributed to the Voyageurs Cup. It was their financial sacrifice and vision that created the Voyageurs Cup, without which there would be no Voyageurs Cup.

When push comes to shove, those are the voices that I am (personally) looking for to take direction. I don't think that is unreasonable, and it makes complete sense. Particularly on this forum, when direction (historically speaking) is very difficult to ascertain (and anyone that was around for the original debate regarding the Voyageurs Cup will know what I am talking about).

Fortunetly, the vast majority of people on this board are all of the same opinion (whether they contributed or not) . As Dave has said, it is a YES vote. There is no sense debating details that are unknown. The vote has been yes, and until mlsintoronto (Paul) gets back to us with some details, there isn't much too debate.

I may not have contributed financially, but I do feel that my voice should be just as heard as those people, and I don't believe it is. Of the list, how many of them are active posters? Which then means you are concerned mostly with those who contributed financially, and are active members. It seems to me that that list is starting to resemble a type of Board of Directors so to speak, who listen to the minions, and then make decisions accordingly.

I do appreciate your honesty though. But I think that in this instance, something this important, we need to have an open vote, not only consensus. We are after all, giving away our trophy, and our name. And do we even know who we're giving it too?

I've always considered myself a Voyageur(as said above) but now I'm unsure. We are either all Voyageurs, or not.

[Cashcleaner]

quote:Originally posted by Winnipeg Fury

When push comes to shove, those are the voices that I am (personally) looking for to take direction. I don't think that is unreasonable, and it makes complete sense. Particularly on this forum, when direction (historically speaking) is very difficult to ascertain (and anyone that was around for the original debate regarding the Voyageurs Cup will know what I am talking about).

Fortunetly, the vast majority of people on this board are all of the same opinion (whether they contributed or not) . As Dave has said, it is a YES vote. There is no sense debating details that are unknown. The vote has been yes, and until mlsintoronto (Paul) gets back to us with some details, there isn't much too debate.

I would still recommend some streaight-forward and fundamental stipulations for handing the trophy over. Simple stuff like keeping the name intact and retaining ownership (either as an individual or a group). Like someone had mentioned earlier on, if the decision is only to hand over the trophy and let the three clubs involved sort out the details, all you've really done is pay for a nice shiny trophy for other people to have and make money off.

Again, I this is just a suggestion, but I would make two things conditional:

1. You retain ownership of the trophy and it's name but allow it's fair use by the parties involved for no charge.

2. No corporate sponsor should be allowed to share the name of the trophy. I think you may have negotiate on the name of the tourney, and personally, I'd rather no naming sponsor be attached to the tourney either.

Everything else is pretty much out of your hands. The tournament is going to be of a format that the three clubs decide and you're just not going to have any say in how it's run. All that is being asked is that you supply the trophy and as it was pointed out, if you don't, they'll simply get their own. The only conditions you really have to worry about concern your group's identity and it's connection to the tourney.

[matthew]

Well I paid in back in the day and I don’t really think my opinion should hold any more sway than anyone elses. I think we’re a living, breathing, growing organism that changes and evolves over time.

I could afford to spend a little. Had it been a few years earlier when I was still in university I wouldn’t have, that’s just how it is. And that doesn’t mean that then I was less passionate about the idea.

That being said I appreciate where Fury is coming from in that no one ever completely agrees on anything here. They never have. And some people won’t agree with whatever happens with this. That’s just how it is.

But to move forward we need to have some sort of concensus. And I agree that the majority have concerns about the details, some qualifying concerns, but overall are in favour of letting our trophy live on under someone else’s control.

In any event we can vote until we really know what we're voting on. Right now we're just canvassing and I think most people are into it.

I’ve always been kind of cool to the idea of forming an official organization and feel putting that kind of time and effort into that process could be better spent elsewhere. I know others strongly disagree with me. That being said now is a time when being more organized would be a really good idea.

At the U20s myself and gwallace (I think that’s who it was, there were a lot of sorrows drowned) were talking about the need for a national Voyageurs meeting. A big event where we could guarantee a massive amount of people would show up so we could actually talk about some of these issues face to face.

gwallace put the idea forward and that kind of thing would really help this kind of debate. A WCQ would be natural, but I don’t imagine we have the time. Obviously there’s travel concerns and again it gets back into regionalism and financials (those closer to the venue will be more represented and those more established with more disposable income — read us older folks — will be more likely to go).

I don’t know.

Fury> you want to take a stab at how many contributors are still regular posters here? I think it’s a pretty good number, but some of those real names kind of threw me off.

cheers,

matthew

[Daniel]

quote:Originally posted by Cashcleaner

2. No corporate sponsor should be allowed to share the name of the trophy. I think you may have negotiate on the name of the tourney, and personally, I'd rather no naming sponsor be attached to the tourney either.

Not necessarily agreeing, but this brings up a point that hasn't been brought up.

There are two main possibilities for the tournament naming:

- Name for the tourny and different name for the cup (ie Super Bowl winner gets Vince Lombardi trophy).

- Same for both (ie Stanley Cup playoffs, World Cup, etc.).

I'd prefer the second option, with a sponsor being possibly attached to the "event", not the trophy itself.

For example: You lift the Voyageurs Cup when you win the "Mastercard Voyageurs Cup", which is the name of the tournament.

[Cashcleaner]

^ My issue with the name of the tourney has to do with the current conventions of most N. American sports organisations. It's not the Doritos Super Bowl - it's just the Super Bowl. Or the Stanley Cup Playoffs. Or the Grey Cup Championship.

Sure, golf has a load of corporate-sponsored tournaments. And the same goes with other more fringe sports like Curling or Volleyball. But the big leagues all managed to play their championship games without resorting to sponsors, and if MLS and USL want to consider themselves truly professional leagues, they should look at the prestige that is attached to other tourneys.

Just my thoughts. I mean if it was to be called the Scotiabank Voyageur's Cup it's not like I wouldn't buy tickets and not take the trip to Montreal, but the preference for me is to see a simple non-sponsored tourney name.