Next CanMNT manager (Herdman to TFC)

[SpursFlu]

32 minutes ago, dyslexic nam said:

Some listen but assume it is all shill propaganda.   It makes it tough to have a rational debate when one side gets to completely and immediately discredit the other side.  

So 99% of the media is shill propaganda and then people who are actually connected to the game and actually want the game to succeed offer a different perspective based on facts, knowledge and legitimate insights and you don't want to consider it? It's shill propaganda? At the very least it offers a slight counterbalance. People seem so invested in this concept that the CSA is full of crooked evil people they just can't accept any other perspective. Is there any scenario in the world in which the CSA is not at fault?

Edited August 29, 2023 by SpursFlu

[InglewoodJack]

7 minutes ago, WestHamCanadianinOxford said:

He has had Premier League offers, just not the ones he wanted.  

Is an amazing run with Canada a strategic move for something really big? 

Probably not if I am honest, but neither is sitting on your hands.

 

Worth an effort for us,  to get the most out of these players.

I didn't keep up with it, but wasn't he locked in Southampton and something happened at the 11th hour that broke the deal down, and thus couldn't get other offers?

Agreed to the rest of that though. If he gets us out of the group stage at the world cup, maybe clubs will come calling, but I think clubs are already interested as is, so I don't know what he'd get out of committing to Canada for a relatively long term.

[mpg_29]

20 minutes ago, InglewoodJack said:

Like @dyslexic nam said, if he has some sort of contractual agreement that he can't coach the US until after 2026, that would make it a bit better, but I think the last thing Canada needs is to be a feeder for the US team.

I honestly don't see how you really enforce something like this. At best you could probably structure a contract so that there are substantial bonuses for the WC so the coach would be forfeiting a sizeable amount of money if they did leave before. I'm not sure the CSA could offer a bonus big enough to prevent an American coach turn down the USMNT position. 

Edited August 29, 2023 by mpg_29

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

10 minutes ago, dyslexic nam said:

Definitely don’t know enough about him to know his motive.  It is more about ensuring we don’t leave ourselves vulnerable to that sort of opportunism - whatever the source/nationality.  

I guess that's the issue, if people are good and we get success, there will be always something better available. 

We built with Herdman together, he had no men's experience to speak of, one of the more stable situations if we are talking about lack of options of opportunism.  But in the end there was a better situation in his eyes.  

[Obinna]

8 minutes ago, WestHamCanadianinOxford said:

He has had Premier League offers, just not the ones he wanted.  

Is an amazing run with Canada a strategic move for something really big? 

Probably not if I am honest, but neither is sitting on your hands.

 

Worth an effort for us,  to get the most out of these players.

Yeah I was going to say something similar to that. Much as it seems like other clubs (including EPL) would be an option for him, the gig he wants may not materialize. Maybe he tosses his hat into the CanMNT ring just to see. It could be his plan B or C and if you're Marsch it's not a bad backup plan.

I believe he applied for the USMNT job so clearly he's interested in International management to a degree. 

[InglewoodJack]

3 minutes ago, mpg_29 said:

I honestly don't see how you really enforce something like this. At best you could probably structure a contract so that there are substantial bonuses for the WC so the coach would be forfeiting a sizeable amount of money if they did leave before. I'm not sure the CSA could offer a bonus big enough to prevent an American coach turn down the USMNT position. 

I don't think you could- other coaches have left for rival teams before, so I don't see how this would be different, unless there's a way to work in a clause where you can't coach in concacaf for a certain number of years after Canada. But I'm pretty sure that would not be an enforceable clause. You'd have to pay him enough money to dissuade him, but also, the US could just pay him more.

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

4 minutes ago, InglewoodJack said:

I didn't keep up with it, but wasn't he locked in Southampton and something happened at the 11th hour that broke the deal down, and thus couldn't get other offers?

Agreed to the rest of that though. If he gets us out of the group stage at the world cup, maybe clubs will come calling, but I think clubs are already interested as is, so I don't know what he'd get out of committing to Canada for a relatively long term.

He was very close with Southampton and it broke down because of the contract length.  Good on him, he wanted longer.  A month later or so, he was close with Leicester, went to see them train and turned that down. 

All this is according to the papers of course, tells me he 1) doesn't want to be a stop-gap and 2) doesn't want just any Premier League job.  As you say, early days, but some of the clubs look pretty car-crashy. 

[Ottawafan]

33 minutes ago, TGAA_Star said:

Biello will most likely be our manager but why not De Vos or any other former Canadian international to be our manager?

I've heard he used to want to be the NT coach.

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

4 minutes ago, InglewoodJack said:

I don't think you could- other coaches have left for rival teams before, so I don't see how this would be different, unless there's a way to work in a clause where you can't coach in concacaf for a certain number of years after Canada. But I'm pretty sure that would not be an enforceable clause. You'd have to pay him enough money to dissuade him, but also, the US could just pay him more.

You can put anything in a contract, "gardening leave" cases resulted from that in England.  It has to be legal first, which I don't see problem here, but what do I know, and the guy has to sign it.

[InglewoodJack]

1 minute ago, WestHamCanadianinOxford said:

He was very close with Southampton and it broke down because of the contract length.  Good on him, he wanted longer.  A month later or so, he was close with Leicester, went to see them train and turned that down. 

All this is according to the papers of course, tells me he 1) doesn't want to be a stop-gap and 2) doesn't want just any Premier League job.  As you say, early days, but some of the clubs look pretty car-crashy. 

Everton might be looking at him too. Lost their first 3 games, almost got relegated last year, and if they fumble their cup game later this week, Marsch might be coaching them before Labour Day. Regardless, I think the offers will be there. Maybe he makes his way back to MLS and goes to NYCFC to climb up the City Group ladder like he did with Red Bull. Probably a more attractive offer for him than Canada to be honest.

[dyslexic nam]

16 minutes ago, mpg_29 said:

I honestly don't see how you really enforce something like this. At best you could probably structure a contract so that there are substantial bonuses for the WC so the coach would be forfeiting a sizeable amount of money if they did leave before. I'm not sure the CSA could offer a bonus big enough to prevent an American coach turn down the USMNT position. 

I will preface this with the usual caveat that I am no lawyer, but I think you can structure an employment contract that explicitly prohibits a contractee from moving immediately to a direct competitor.  I know corporate contracts may be a bit different but it isn’t unprecedented to include that sort of provision AFAIK.  If you put it in their contract and they agree to the clauses/conditions and sign off, it seems like it is possible.  And it isn’t like it is a permanent prohibition - it would just be a protective measure in advance of 2026 given our very specific circumstances.  

Edited August 29, 2023 by dyslexic nam

[SpursFlu]

Watching TSN last night I heard an interesting name. Not because I want him. Don't hit me over the head but I do think he has good relationship with Phonzie which was brought up a few times yesterday that maybe Herdman and Alphonso didn't see eye to eye on everything. I could almost guarantee he'll be applying for the job

Carl Robinson 

Edited August 29, 2023 by SpursFlu

[mpg_29]

3 minutes ago, dyslexic nam said:

I will preface this with the usual caveat that I am no lawyer, but I think you can structure an employment contract that explicitly prohibits a contractee from moving immediately to a direct competition.  I know corporate contracts may be a bit different but it isn’t unprecedented to include that sort of provision AFAIK.  If you put it in their contract and they agree to the clauses/conditions and sign off, it seems like it is possible.  And it isn’t like it is a permanent prohibition - it would just be a protective measure in advance of 2026 given our very specific circumstances.  

Right but with international coaching we are talking about multiple jurisdictions. It's not some closed loop. I guess you could take them to court and sue them? But does the CSA really want to get involved with that?

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

5 minutes ago, InglewoodJack said:

Everton might be looking at him too. Lost their first 3 games, almost got relegated last year, and if they fumble their cup game later this week, Marsch might be coaching them before Labour Day. Regardless, I think the offers will be there. Maybe he makes his way back to MLS and goes to NYCFC to climb up the City Group ladder like he did with Red Bull. Probably a more attractive offer for him than Canada to be honest.

The fact that Sean Dyche is the manager in trouble there says to me that younger and really up and coming managers see something rotten in the state of blue Merseyside.

Fat Frank was desperate enough to take it. See about Marsch, I guess. 

[InglewoodJack]

8 minutes ago, dyslexic nam said:

I will preface this with the usual caveat that I am no lawyer, but I think you can structure an employment contract that explicitly prohibits a contractee from moving immediately to a direct competitor.  I know corporate contracts may be a bit different but it isn’t unprecedented to include that sort of provision AFAIK.  If you put it in their contract and they agree to the clauses/conditions and sign off, it seems like it is possible.  And it isn’t like it is a permanent prohibition - it would just be a protective measure in advance of 2026 given our very specific circumstances.  

I'm not sure how enforceable corporate NC clauses are though. You'd have to prove in court that you can deny someone's right to find gainful employment and usually that's pretty difficult to do. Marsch is a soccer coach, you couldn't argue that he can just go and do something else. He'd probably be under a pretty strict NDA to not share CANMNT tactics with the USMNT in any case, so I don't know how you can argue that him taking the American job would harm us other than it hurts our feelings, unfortunately.

[Obinna]

12 minutes ago, SpursFlu said:

Watching TSN last night I heard an interesting name. Not because I want him. Don't hit me over the head but I do think he has good relationship with Phonzie which was brought up a few times yesterday that maybe Herdman and Alphonso didn't see eye to eye on everything. I could almost guarantee he'll be applying for the job

Carl Robinson 

Strikes me as one of the people who probably texted KJ on how to apply.

All power to him if he throws his hat in the ring. He could present himself has the solution to getting the best out of Phonzie should he get an interview. Not my number one choice but certainly a worthy candidate. 

[mpg_29]

4 minutes ago, InglewoodJack said:

I'm not sure how enforceable corporate NC clauses are though. You'd have to prove in court that you can deny someone's right to find gainful employment and usually that's pretty difficult to do. Marsch is a soccer coach, you couldn't argue that he can just go and do something else. He'd probably be under a pretty strict NDA to not share CANMNT tactics with the USMNT in any case, so I don't know how you can argue that him taking the American job would harm us other than it hurts our feelings, unfortunately.

Right which is why the only real legitimate deterrent is substantial timed bonuses. There would be some of that anyway with the WC presumably.

[dyslexic nam]

11 minutes ago, InglewoodJack said:

I'm not sure how enforceable corporate NC clauses are though. You'd have to prove in court that you can deny someone's right to find gainful employment and usually that's pretty difficult to do. Marsch is a soccer coach, you couldn't argue that he can just go and do something else. He'd probably be under a pretty strict NDA to not share CANMNT tactics with the USMNT in any case, so I don't know how you can argue that him taking the American job would harm us other than it hurts our feelings, unfortunately.

That’s sort of the point though - you can’t possibly enforce an NDA about tactics if he is coaching the US against Canada.  It is a nonsensical concept to think that he wouldn’t use his info about the Canadian system when figuring out how to beat us.   

The non-competition clauses are generally in place for people who have access to information of exactly the sort a head coach would have - specific tactical information that would give your direct competitor and advantage. 

Anyway, just speculation.  But I would hope that some of the recent contractual mis-steps by the CSA recently would make them at least explore what is possible.  

 

Edited August 29, 2023 by dyslexic nam

[SpursFlu]

1 minute ago, Obinna said:

Strikes me as one of the people who probably texted KJ on how to apply.

All power to him if he throws his hat in the ring. He could present himself has the solution to getting the best out of Phonzie should he get an interview. Not my number one choice but certainly a worthy candidate. 

Checks a couple of boxes

Knows Canada, Speaks English, "good" relationship with star player, also knows a few others I think, decent resume?(where's our Australian Vancouverite on this one?), knows international football, wasn't he the captain of Wales? On budget for sure, clearly looking right now

I'm just saying if you factor in everything. I bet he'll be in the conversation in a real way

[Cadeau]

I've wondered about Phonzie and Herdman's relationship. LIke Herdman has answered that Eustaquio was the best CANMNT player when asked...I just think that its probably best to answer that question like a politician as opposed to naming a name.

[InglewoodJack]

1 minute ago, dyslexic nam said:

That’s sort of the point though - you can’t possibly enforce and NDA about tactics if he is coaching the US against Canada.  It is a nonsensical concept to think that he wouldn’t use his info about the Canadian system when figuring out how to beat us.   

The non-competition clauses are generally in place for people who have access to information of exactly the sort a head coach would have - specific tactical information that would give your direct competitor and advantage. 

Anyway, just speculation.  But I would hope that some of the recent contractual mis-steps by the CSA recently would make them at least explore what is possible.  

 

You could- Canada could take the case up with FIFA courts, show game tape that shows that the USMNT is using tactics Canada used, and that they didn't use before they got our coach, etc., but I don't know how you'd build a strong case unless you could seize a USB stick with a folder called "SECRET CANADA TACTICS STRENGTHS AND WEAKNESSES" and also prove that that information isn't stuff you could learn by just watching CAMNT tape. And even if you do prove that, what would happen? Probably a very light slap on the wrist.

If Marsch wanted to coach us, take all our info and then go and coach the USMNT, he probably could, in all likelihood. There probably isn't an amount of money we could throw at him to dissuade him from moving either. I don't think he even wants this job, so all of this is moot, but if he did, I think we'd have to just accept the risk. Herdman could've moved to the US hypothetically too.

[Obinna]

1 minute ago, SpursFlu said:

Checks a couple of boxes

Knows Canada, Speaks English, "good" relationship with star player, also knows a few others I think, decent resume?(where's our Australian Vancouverite on this one?), knows international football, wasn't he the captain of Wales? On budget for sure, clearly looking right now

I'm just saying if you factor in everything. I bet he'll be in the conversation in a real way

This alone would put him ahead of someone like MDS, who has a similar resume. Both were the head coach of the Whitecaps and both are currently MLS assistants (DCU and LAFC respectively).

I guess the other thing is that Robinson knows international football as a player, as you say, and that would be another thing which puts him ahead of MDS. 

[dyslexic nam]

Just now, InglewoodJack said:

You could- Canada could take the case up with FIFA courts, show game tape that shows that the USMNT is using tactics Canada used, and that they didn't use before they got our coach, etc., but I don't know how you'd build a strong case unless you could seize a USB stick with a folder called "SECRET CANADA TACTICS STRENGTHS AND WEAKNESSES" and also prove that that information isn't stuff you could learn by just watching CAMNT tape. And even if you do prove that, what would happen? Probably a very light slap on the wrist.

If Marsch wanted to coach us, take all our info and then go and coach the USMNT, he probably could, in all likelihood. There probably isn't an amount of money we could throw at him to dissuade him from moving either. I don't think he even wants this job, so all of this is moot, but if he did, I think we'd have to just accept the risk. Herdman could've moved to the US hypothetically too.

Yeah that just doesn’t make sense to me.  If he is coaching a team playing against us, I have no idea how you could differentiate between effective coaching and using “insider info”.  

[mpg_29]

I mean Biello is going to be the coach for the Nations League games in Oct/Nov and that's also determining Copa America qualification. So there are actually some big stakes right away...

[Obinna]

I don't know if anyone brought him up yet earlier in the thread, but.....Wilfred Nancy?

Has a good thing going with the Crew so I doubt he leaves, but I wonder how that fit would look. Has coached Johnston, Miller, Waterman, ZBG, Piette, Kone, Choniere, Pantemis, Russell-Rowe, and Farsi. That's a sizable chunk of the pool (or potential pool in the case of Farsi).