Vancouver Whitecaps 2021 Season

[BearcatSA]

3 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Indulge me for a second: if we'd beaten SKC last week, we'd be playing a home game to Real Salt Lake this weekend at BC Place. Is that right?

Yes, we have the lottery component in play with one legged playoffs in a salary capped league and the two top conference sides now being out.

[narduch]

2 minutes ago, BearcatSA said:

Yes, we have the lottery component in play with one legged playoffs in a salary capped league and the two top conference sides now being out.

New England will go 23 days between matches. Wouldn't surprise me if they get knocked out too

[BearcatSA]

1 minute ago, narduch said:

New England will go 23 days between matches. Wouldn't surprise me if they get knocked out too

Wow!  That's ridiculous.

If they go down, Donnyboo and his minions will be taking another look at the league's playoff format.

[narduch]

Just now, BearcatSA said:

Wow!  That's ridiculous.

If they go down, Donnyboo and his minions will be taking another look at the league's playoff format.

Easy solution is to have the top 8 make the playoffs and no longer give the #1 seed a bye.

[BearcatSA]

28 minutes ago, narduch said:

Easy solution is to have the top 8 make the playoffs and no longer give the #1 seed a bye.

Yes, but in this salary cap league the very best regular season teams are never quite as dominant as perceived and I still believe are more prone to upset in these one off playoffs at the end of a summer league regular season, even if playing at home.  The analytics crowd will probably disagree, however, and I don't have any numbers to back it up but I tend to prefer two legged playoffs until the final.

[BearcatSA]

And...SKC is out in a one off lottery.  All credit to RSL and their tight shape and game plan.

[narduch]

Looks like they are announcing Sartini's extension tomorrow.

 

[Big_M]

from d8 italy to here

 

[Watchmen]

Just a 2 year contract. Makes me think the club isn't totally sold on him long term (I'm not either) but didn't want to ruin the goodwill he'd built up with the late season run. 

[knibby]

mid season fire?

[BearcatSA]

30 minutes ago, knibby said:

mid season fire?

Schuster's firewall:  I think the TD's influence with the selection and tactics has probably become more pronounced in this arrangement, way more so then with MDS.  If things really go south (which I optimistically believe is doubtful), then it's the charismatic Italian on the firing line.

Speaking of optimism, I used to always bug Beaver 2.0 when he would say that the club had "finally turned the corner" (and I would retort that the turn was at the start of going off a cliff, Thelma and Louise style!), but now I do feel that the club has a proper football foundation in place, especially now that some of the FO antagonists are on paid leave and getting quietly shuffled out of the decidion making.

"Andiamo!" indeed, or should we be saying the German equivalent?

[Free kick]

On 11/27/2021 at 10:33 AM, BearcatSA said:

Wow!  That's ridiculous.

If they go down, Donnyboo and his minions will be taking another look at the league's playoff format.

They had better.  i have always said, a one game single knockout will mean that some mediocre teams will win it all.

[Watchmen]

42 minutes ago, Free kick said:

They had better.  i have always said, a one game single knockout will mean that some mediocre teams will win it all.

They had better leave it as it is. A one game playoff is more entertaining. And they had mediocre teams win it under the old format too.

[knibby]

1 hour ago, BearcatSA said:

Schuster's firewall:  I think the TD's influence with the selection and tactics has probably become more pronounced in this arrangement, way more so then with MDS.  If things really go south (which I optimistically believe is doubtful), then it's the charismatic Italian on the firing line.

Speaking of optimism, I used to always bug Beaver 2.0 when he would say that the club had "finally turned the corner" (and I would retort that the turn was at the start of going off a cliff, Thelma and Louise style!), but now I do feel that the club has a proper football foundation in place, especially now that some of the FO antagonists are on paid leave and getting quietly shuffled out of the decidion making.

"Andiamo!" indeed, or should we be saying the German equivalent?

I am glad you saw things in him that I did not.  That playoff game sent me down the same rabbit hole. 

[Free kick]

1 hour ago, Watchmen said:

They had better leave it as it is. A one game playoff is more entertaining. And they had mediocre teams win it under the old format too.

With two legs, you cant park the bus with 9 men behind the ball for 90 minutes hoping to take the game to penalties.    But you can surely do this when there is single knockout game.   

Want an example?  watch what Cincinnati did in the MLS is back tournament.  

 

PS.:  a team like Cincinnati could win it all with this format

Edited November 30, 2021 by Free kick

[Watchmen]

21 minutes ago, Free kick said:

With two legs, you cant park the bus with 9 men behind the ball for 90 minutes hoping to take the game to penalties.    But you can surely do this when there is single knockout game.   

Want an example?  watch what Cincinnati did in the MLS is back tournament.  

 

PS.:  a team like Cincinnati could win it all with this format

What you get in 2 legs is one team playing 9 men behind the ball for the first game because they're terrified of giving up the away goal, so the first league winds up usually being pretty terrible. 

And your example of Cincinnati went out in the round of 16 in the MLS is Back tournament. 

This year we currently have the #4 Portland vs #7 Salt Lake (and you know MLS doesn't mind Portland being in it still) and #2 Philadelphia vs either #1 New England or #4 NYCFC. So the east is basically exactly what you want and the west gives them the league the opportunity to point to Salt Lake and say "see? Anyone could do it!" because they also want to push parity.

[BearcatSA]

29 minutes ago, Free kick said:

With two legs, you cant park the bus with 9 men behind the ball for 90 minutes hoping to take the game to penalties.    But you can surely do this when there is single knockout game.   

Want an example?  watch what Cincinnati did in the MLS is back tournament.  

 

PS.:  a team like Cincinnati could win it all with this format

The problem with a two legged affair is that it puts the lower ranking team on a more equal footing because it gets a home game.  You need to have an advantage for being good in the regular season, so the one-off match advantage is home cooking.

[Free kick]

1 hour ago, BearcatSA said:

The problem with a two legged affair is that it puts the lower ranking team on a more equal footing because it gets a home game.  You need to have an advantage for being good in the regular season, so the one-off match advantage is home cooking.

But the higher seeded team gets the second leg.  which is already a big advantage

1 hour ago, Watchmen said:

What you get in 2 legs is one team playing 9 men behind the ball for the first game because they're terrified of giving up the away goal, so the first league winds up usually being pretty terrible. 

And your example of Cincinnati went out in the round of 16 in the MLS is Back tournament. 

This year we currently have the #4 Portland vs #7 Salt Lake (and you know MLS doesn't mind Portland being in it still) and #2 Philadelphia vs either #1 New England or #4 NYCFC. So the east is basically exactly what you want and the west gives them the league the opportunity to point to Salt Lake and say "see? Anyone could do it!" because they also want to push parity.

if you want to see more proof of how single game knockout produces very boring defensive soccer?  Go take a look at the World cups results up until and including 1982 versus 1986 and onwards.  In 1986 they eliminated the second group stage in favor of a round of 16.  Previously they had a second group stage whereby the each of the four winners would go to the semi finals.  But if you look at all the scores from R16 onward since 1986 you will almost exclusively see score lines  that look like this: 

1-0

0-0 aet 5-4

0-1 

0-0 et 1-0

1-0

0-1

0-0 aet 3-4

and so on and so on and so on.   At most WC's now the best soccer is played in the group stages. single knockout makes defensive soccer the winning formula.

 

PS.:  some of the best soccer games I ever saw were in the second group stage at the WC when it was around (eg.: 1982).  Granted, there were other problems with that formulae 

Edited November 30, 2021 by Free kick

[BearcatSA]

1 hour ago, Watchmen said:

What you get in 2 legs is one team playing 9 men behind the ball for the first game because they're terrified of giving up the away goal, so the first league winds up usually being pretty terrible. 

The first leg in this league used to be the lower ranked team's home fixture.  The Caps' prior last playoff appearance (vs Seattle under Robbo) was a grim defensive affair at BC Place, in part because the Sounders didn't want to concede, either. For the second leg, Vanouver hung on in the same manner but finally got dispatched in the end by two second half Dempsey goals.  I think it takes a lot more effort to pull off a smash and grab over two legs.

You could possibly argue that SKC's very recent earlier loss in Vancouver served as kind of a first leg because it gave them the intel on how to expose the opponent (less tikka takka deep build up suseptible to the Caps' press and more route one and long diagonal switches to expose the space behind the wingbacks).  And for me, that is another advantage for a higher ranked team in a two legged affair. 

 

 

 

[Watchmen]

52 minutes ago, Free kick said:

But the higher seeded team gets the second leg.  which is already a big advantage

if you want to see more proof of how single game knockout produces very boring defensive soccer?  Go take a look at the World cups results up until and including 1982 versus 1986 and onwards.  In 1986 they eliminated the second group stage in favor of a round of 16.  Previously they had a second group stage whereby the each of the four winners would go to the semi finals.  But if you look at all the scores from R16 onward since 1986 you will almost exclusively score lines  that look like this: 

1-0

0-0 aet 5-4

0-1 

0-0 et 1-0

1-0

0-1

0-0 aet 3-4

and so on and so on and so on.   At most WC's now the best soccer is played in the group stages. single knockout makes defensive soccer the winning formula.

 

PS.:  some of the best soccer games I ever saw were in the second group stage at the WC when it was around (eg.: 1982).  Granted, there were other problems with that formulae 

Well now we're discussing something a bit different - exciting soccer vs "Cincinnati winning".

1) The World Cup has been with the single game elimination format since 1986. Please find me the example of the "Cincinnati winning" that you're concerned about (ie a non-top ranked team winning the World Cup).

2) I went back to the 2018 World Cup. Of the 15 knockout games that mattered (ie no 3rd place game), only 2 ended 1-0. 3 more were 1-1 and went to penalties.

[Free kick]

Record breaking season down the drain for NE.    They lose on PK's to a team that finished 22 pts behind in the standings over a nine month period.   And, the other conference leader is also out.  Thats what happens when you have one game take all.  Anybody can win one game.  NZ, even though they have no where near the talent Canada has, can beat Canada in one game.  At least with a two leg tied and over 180 minutes, the better talent has time to surface to the top and make difference in the ultimate result.

But in one game,  you could lose and be eliminated  on penalties, on bad call from the ref, one accidental slip... etc.   You cant convince me that NYCFC are a better team than NE.   NE are a better team.   when trophies are awarded i want to see them awarded to a good team.   Not a team that just got hot or lucky over a 3-4 game period.   

Edited December 1, 2021 by Free kick

[Watchmen]

32 minutes ago, Free kick said:

Record breaking season down the drain for NE.    They lose on PK's to a team that finished 22 pts behind in the standings over a nine month period.   And, the other conference leader is also out.  Thats what happens when you have one game take all.  Anybody can win one game.  NZ, even though they have no where near the talent Canada has, can beat Canada in one game.  At least with a two leg tied and over 180 minutes, the better talent has time to surface to the top and make difference in the ultimate result.

But in one game,  you could lose and be eliminated  on penalties, on bad call from the ref, one accidental slip... etc.   You cant convince me that NYCFC are a better team than NE.   NE are a better team.   when trophies are awarded i want to see them awarded to a good team.   Not a team that just got hot or lucky over a 3-4 game period.   

The Supporters Shield winner has made it to the MLS final once in 10 years. So, the two-legged method didn't get you what you wanted either.

Edited December 1, 2021 by Watchmen

[BearcatSA]

18 hours ago, Free kick said:

Record breaking season down the drain for NE.    They lose on PK's to a team that finished 22 pts behind in the standings over a nine month period.   And, the other conference leader is also out.  Thats what happens when you have one game take all.  Anybody can win one game.  NZ, even though they have no where near the talent Canada has, can beat Canada in one game.  At least with a two leg tied and over 180 minutes, the better talent has time to surface to the top and make difference in the ultimate result.

But in one game,  you could lose and be eliminated  on penalties, on bad call from the ref, one accidental slip... etc.   You cant convince me that NYCFC are a better team than NE.   NE are a better team.   when trophies are awarded i want to see them awarded to a good team.   Not a team that just got hot or lucky over a 3-4 game period.   

NYCFC weren't parking a bus.  They wanted to play their own offensive game (having the league leading scorer and high expected goals stats) and it showed.  However, NER weren't on song this evening and were rather lucky to get extra time.

Edited December 1, 2021 by BearcatSA

[RJB]

8 hours ago, Free kick said:

But if you look at all the scores from R16 onward since 1986 you will almost exclusively see score lines  that look like this: 

1-0

0-0 aet 5-4

0-1 

0-0 et 1-0

1-0

0-1

0-0 aet 3-4

In the knockout rounds at the 2018 world cup there were only two games matching the scorelines above (1-0). In 2014 there were five (1-0, 0-0). In 2010 there were five (1-0, 0-0). So in the last three tournaments only 12 of 48 knockout games ended 1-0 or 0-0. That hardly qualifies as 'almost exclusively.'

[Unnamed Trialist]

Back to Sartini. I like how the Whitecaps press release gives a detailed explanation of the improvements for the Caps from the very second MDS is relieved of his duties. 

I find it a bit tendentious, as the team was already improving, and the only glitch in the previous month to the firing was the V-Cup match in Langford. I take it that he built properly on a tendency already in motion. He made no wholesale changes, there were no new player revelations, the tactics were quite similar. 

But back to that press release: it was meticulously researched to help the club justify his continuity.

I am pleased he was rehired, don't get me wrong. It is right to give him a chance, and although we knew little about him, he has a strong bio, has risen slowly but surely, has some details that are very positive (scouting, tactics, varied pro experience). 

I suspect he'll surprise us by making changes in spots we might not expect to be shuffled around too much. Has Vancouver announced their protected players before the Expansion Draft? Who is expected to be moved on? Clearly announcing this now gives his staff time to prepare that list, as a first priority.