CPL League Future Format and Table Structure

[Initial B]

On 12/8/2018 at 9:12 PM, Impactsupporter said:

Maybe it would be better to have a regional CPL (similar to Junior Hockey) as suggested by Carlo Corazzin   East Central West, national playoffs.

https://twitter.com/thecanplhub/status/865661688632266752

Just a thought.

 

On 12/9/2018 at 12:36 AM, Bison44 said:

Good thought, but like some others have commented on, you would need 6-8 teams per east/west/central.  And I dont know if we have 20-25 soccer towns that will bring in the 5 to 10g fans needed to have a decent product on the field even with restricted travelling with 3 regional conferences.  I still think if we can get 10-12 bigger centers with deeper pockets and larger fans bases being the entire CPL we should be happy.  And hopefully below that we can still have thriving L1ON, PQ league with the addition of a western and maritime circuit.  10-20 years down the road, HAHA.  

You know, perhaps we're going about this all wrong trying to create a hierarchical Div1/2/3 system. Maybe regionalism is the way to go. In my research, both Cuba and Congo DR have regional round-robins for the first half of the season, with the top teams from each region competing nationally. If you look at Congo specifically, they have 3 regional groups of 8-10 clubs that play a fall season. The top 4 clubs from each region then go on to play in a 12 team spring season to crown the top teams that will go on to play in the Continental competitions.

So what if the CPL was structured like this:

The Spring (Sorting) Season: The CPL is divided into 3 regions; West (31.9% of the population Incl. the territories), Central (just Ontario w/ 38.7% of the population), and East (Quebec and Maritimes w/ 29.4% of the population), all with a variable number of clubs within them (Some number between 8-12). The season takes place from the beginning of April until mid-June (about 10 weeks), with each region plays the number of games they think they need to determine the top clubs within their respective leagues (at least 10-12 games).  Transportation will be expected to be by bus between cities, but clubs can chose to fly is they wish. The top 3 teams from the Central and West and the top 2 teams of the East get promoted into Division 1 for the Fall Season.

The Inter-Seasonal Break: This period occurs from mid-June to mid-July to allow for the Gold Cup, World Cup, and other international summer events to occur. It also gives clubs a chance to bolster their rosters for the upcoming season and rest/heal their players while the club FOs can sell more tickets.

The Fall (Championship) Season: The top 8 Division 1 teams in CPL play a round-robin home and away schedule of 14 games to determine the league champion and which teams get into the CONCACAF competitions. Travel by aircraft is mandatory for games between inter-regional teams. The remaining teams in each of the 3 regions will continue to play regionally with travel by bus, with the winner getting the fall season regional trophy. In the case of there being fewer than 5 teams in each region, perhaps the regional Div 3 Semi-pro leagues could synchronise their schedule with the CPL and have their top teams be promoted for the season to play with the CPL clubs. Once all the fall seasons are complete, all teams revert back to their original regions and the off season begins.

The advantage of this model would be that teams would settle each season to their comfortable level without too large of a capital outlay for airfares and other operational costs. 

[Complete Homer]

When I think about what the biggest growth demographic for CPL will be, I think of the under 40 person who grew up playing soccer at the recreational level but never had a local team or family connection to a team from the home country. They never followed the sport as a fan outside of the Olympics or the World Cup because there was no team to connect to, so they aren't familiar with some of these norms in the wider soccer world.

That is a pretty big demographic that is only growing (~30% of 18 year old Canadians who played organized sports played soccer, ~40% of 13 year old Canadians). They are soccer literate, and have a connection to the game, but no connection to a fandom. They are more important to CPL than lifelong purists just because they are so much more numerous

The goal should be to make that transition as easy as possible. Obviously the most important step is giving them a local club and supporting anything that creates a sense of community, but it should also mean that the competition should be relatable and recognizable to people not steeped in soccer fandoms. The lack of playoffs is already a blow to that, I think an apertura/clausera setup or multi-step regionalized leagues is confusing and damaging to the potential fanbase. It doesn't help to save a bit of money on travel if you are hurting the growth of your audience.

Make it simple and make it clean. Short of a conference system with playoffs like the NHL, a straight single table is about as simple as it gets and wouldn't alienate new fans as much

[kacbru]

1 hour ago, Initial B said:

 

You know, perhaps we're going about this all wrong trying to create a hierarchical Div1/2/3 system. Maybe regionalism is the way to go. In my research, both Cuba and Congo DR have regional round-robins for the first half of the season, with the top teams from each region competing nationally. If you look at Congo specifically, they have 3 regional groups of 8-10 clubs that play a fall season. The top 4 clubs from each region then go on to play in a 12 team spring season to crown the top teams that will go on to play in the Continental competitions.

So what if the CPL was structured like this:

The Spring (Sorting) Season: The CPL is divided into 3 regions; West (31.9% of the population Incl. the territories), Central (just Ontario w/ 38.7% of the population), and East (Quebec and Maritimes w/ 29.4% of the population), all with a variable number of clubs within them (Some number between 8-12). The season takes place from the beginning of April until mid-June (about 10 weeks), with each region plays the number of games they think they need to determine the top clubs within their respective leagues (at least 10-12 games).  Transportation will be expected to be by bus between cities, but clubs can chose to fly is they wish. The top 3 teams from the Central and West and the top 2 teams of the East get promoted into Division 1 for the Fall Season.

The Inter-Seasonal Break: This period occurs from mid-June to mid-July to allow for the Gold Cup, World Cup, and other international summer events to occur. It also gives clubs a chance to bolster their rosters for the upcoming season and rest/heal their players while the club FOs can sell more tickets.

The Fall (Championship) Season: The top 8 Division 1 teams in CPL play a round-robin home and away schedule of 14 games to determine the league champion and which teams get into the CONCACAF competitions. Travel by aircraft is mandatory for games between inter-regional teams. The remaining teams in each of the 3 regions will continue to play regionally with travel by bus, with the winner getting the fall season regional trophy. In the case of there being fewer than 5 teams in each region, perhaps the regional Div 3 Semi-pro leagues could synchronise their schedule with the CPL and have their top teams be promoted for the season to play with the CPL clubs. Once all the fall seasons are complete, all teams revert back to their original regions and the off season begins.

The advantage of this model would be that teams would settle each season to their comfortable level without too large of a capital outlay for airfares and other operational costs. 

It would be one hell of a bus ride when York 9 visits the Thunder Bay Chill.

[Ams1984]

4 hours ago, Initial B said:

 

You know, perhaps we're going about this all wrong trying to create a hierarchical Div1/2/3 system. Maybe regionalism is the way to go. In my research, both Cuba and Congo DR have regional round-robins for the first half of the season, with the top teams from each region competing nationally. If you look at Congo specifically, they have 3 regional groups of 8-10 clubs that play a fall season. The top 4 clubs from each region then go on to play in a 12 team spring season to crown the top teams that will go on to play in the Continental competitions.

So what if the CPL was structured like this:

The Spring (Sorting) Season: The CPL is divided into 3 regions; West (31.9% of the population Incl. the territories), Central (just Ontario w/ 38.7% of the population), and East (Quebec and Maritimes w/ 29.4% of the population), all with a variable number of clubs within them (Some number between 8-12). The season takes place from the beginning of April until mid-June (about 10 weeks), with each region plays the number of games they think they need to determine the top clubs within their respective leagues (at least 10-12 games).  Transportation will be expected to be by bus between cities, but clubs can chose to fly is they wish. The top 3 teams from the Central and West and the top 2 teams of the East get promoted into Division 1 for the Fall Season.

The Inter-Seasonal Break: This period occurs from mid-June to mid-July to allow for the Gold Cup, World Cup, and other international summer events to occur. It also gives clubs a chance to bolster their rosters for the upcoming season and rest/heal their players while the club FOs can sell more tickets.

The Fall (Championship) Season: The top 8 Division 1 teams in CPL play a round-robin home and away schedule of 14 games to determine the league champion and which teams get into the CONCACAF competitions. Travel by aircraft is mandatory for games between inter-regional teams. The remaining teams in each of the 3 regions will continue to play regionally with travel by bus, with the winner getting the fall season regional trophy. In the case of there being fewer than 5 teams in each region, perhaps the regional Div 3 Semi-pro leagues could synchronise their schedule with the CPL and have their top teams be promoted for the season to play with the CPL clubs. Once all the fall seasons are complete, all teams revert back to their original regions and the off season begins.

The advantage of this model would be that teams would settle each season to their comfortable level without too large of a capital outlay for airfares and other operational costs. 

No thanks. I’d much rather a single season with a boring old table, and the club who amassed the most points by season’s end deserves to be champion. I’m really not interested in what Congo or Cuba do about anything to be honest, I don’t think we need to take our cues from them, instead we should look to the EPL and La Liga etc... they’re the best in the world, and it makes more sense to look to the best. 

[Alex D]

2 hours ago, Ams1984 said:

No thanks. I’d much rather a single season with a boring old table, and the club who amassed the most points by season’s end deserves to be champion. I’m really not interested in what Congo or Cuba do about anything to be honest, I don’t think we need to take our cues from them, instead we should look to the EPL and La Liga etc... they’re the best in the world, and it makes more sense to look to the best. 

It's hard to make that format exciting unless we have pro rel and multiple CCL spots. The first few years they will have to be creative to maintian fan interest but I agree that single table with a leauge champion should be the goal. It's what most Canadian soccer fans are used to watching. 

[Ams1984]

38 minutes ago, Alex D said:

It's hard to make that format exciting unless we have pro rel and multiple CCL spots. The first few years they will have to be creative to maintian fan interest but I agree that single table with a leauge champion should be the goal. It's what most Canadian soccer fans are used to watching. 

Agreed. I wonder if there will be a Concacaf Champions League spot and a Concacaf League spot available to the CPL? Or will it instead be that there’s a Concacaf Champions League spot available via the Voyageurs Cup, and a Concacaf League spot available to the Premier League champ? 

[Initial B]

13 hours ago, Ams1984 said:

Agreed. I wonder if there will be a Concacaf Champions League spot and a Concacaf League spot available to the CPL? Or will it instead be that there’s a Concacaf Champions League spot available via the Voyageurs Cup, and a Concacaf League spot available to the Premier League champ? 

I think at first it would be the later option that makes the most sense. You want Canada's soccer profile to be growing on the world stage and for the forseeable future the MLS clubs will probably be the strongest clubs to carry that banner. We want our CPL clubs to get in more games for the Canadian Players so it would make sense for the CPL clubs to play in the Concacaf League to gain international experience.

16 hours ago, Ams1984 said:

No thanks. I’d much rather a single season with a boring old table, and the club who amassed the most points by season’s end deserves to be champion. I’m really not interested in what Congo or Cuba do about anything to be honest, I don’t think we need to take our cues from them, instead we should look to the EPL and La Liga etc... they’re the best in the world, and it makes more sense to look to the best. 

You could say that the boring old table and single season is the Fall Season. Or you could call them the playoffs. Or don't even call them seasons, but instead call them Stages or Rounds in a single season. I suppose it all depends on what the league feels would provide the best marketing angle. I agree that a Single Table, Single Season would be the ideal endgame, but for financial stability purposes it might be better to build from the bottom up. In a sense, you are 'promoting' teams to first division, allowing clubs to find their level. If a team does better than they expect in the Spring Season and don't think that they can afford the additional operating expenses, then they could defer the promotion to the next team in line in the regional table. If all the teams below them in the table decline the opportunity, then the Div 1 spots would be offered to the other Regional Divisions until you have your 8 teams. I'm sure that there will be at least 8 teams that can afford the cross-country air travel - Cavalry, Valour, Forge, FCE, and Fury (when they join) should all be expected to be able to handle those costs and will probably be perennial contenders. Probable contenders for me would include York, Quebec City, Laval, Regina and Halifax. Less probable Div 1 sustainable clubs would be Pacific FC, London, K-W, Saskatoon, Mississauga and Moncton. Cities that could probably sustain Div 2 teams would be Nanaimo, Surrey, Langley, Abbotsford, Kelowna, Red Deer, Lethbridge, Thunder Bay, Niagara, Windsor, Niagara, Brampton, Oakville, Sudbury, Kingston, Gatineau, Sherbrooke, Saguenay, and Trois Rivieres. That's 34 municipalities right there.

One of my main concerns is having enough teams concentrated out west to sustain a Division 2 Regional league. I don't think places like Kamloops, Prince George, Medicine Hat, Moose Jaw or Brandon would be able to handle the fiscal weight, but if they had a prairie regional Div 3 league, hopefully they could build a sustainable business plan.

19 hours ago, kacbru said:

It would be one hell of a bus ride when York 9 visits the Thunder Bay Chill.

Ottawa to Thunder Bay would be even longer, and Winnipeg to Vancouver would be longer still. A team in St John's would pretty much have no choice but fly to all their away games save maybe Halifax and Moncton. But financial sustainability is crucial at this stage of league development.

[Kent]

3 hours ago, Initial B said:

Ottawa to Thunder Bay would be even longer, and Winnipeg to Vancouver would be longer still. A team in St John's would pretty much have no choice but fly to all their away games save maybe Halifax and Moncton. But financial sustainability is crucial at this stage of league development.

So that addresses the intra-regional games. About the inter-regional games you said "Travel by aircraft is mandatory for games between inter-regional teams." I think this would probably happen naturally, and shouldn't be made mandatory. If it's mandatory then you would be forcing Ottawa to fly to a game in Montreal, which I would argue doesn't make sense to be forced onto a team.

[Kent]

17 hours ago, Ams1984 said:

Agreed. I wonder if there will be a Concacaf Champions League spot and a Concacaf League spot available to the CPL? Or will it instead be that there’s a Concacaf Champions League spot available via the Voyageurs Cup, and a Concacaf League spot available to the Premier League champ? 

In my opinion it would make 0 sense for the CPL to be awarded it's own spot directly into the CCL right off the bat. Apologies for the broken record I've become on the topic, but I'd like to see a CONCACAF League spot if not in year 1, soon after. Then I want to see a mechanism using the CONCACAF Club Index that allows for spots to promote and relegate between CONCACAF League and CONCACAF Champions League (and for new spots to be berthed into CONCACAF League). That way CPL can find its appropriate level in continental competitions.

[grande]

Agreed with Kent on this.

V-Cup: CONCACAF Champions League
CPL Winner: CONCACAF League

[Unnamed Trialist]

36 minutes ago, grande said:

Agreed with Kent on this.

V-Cup: CONCACAF Champions League
CPL Winner: CONCACAF League

We'd need the CSA to finance Concacaf League participation then--or else does the region help teams? I don't know. 

Edit: it's a qualifying round for the Champions League so would make no sense to use it as a prize for the CPL winner.  Apart, it's set up for minimum travel by Caribbean and Central American teams. No good for us.

Makes more sense for CPL winners to get byes into deeper VCUP rounds the following year. 

Edited December 12, 2018 by Unnamed Trialist

[Ansem]

CPL League Future Format and Table Structure

My opinion

Canadian Premier League - Division I

• 16-20 teams
• Single table from coast from coast
• CPL Champion goes to Champions League*
• 2nd place goes to CONCACAF League

*I understand those having the cautious approach of putting "training wheels" on CPL by just putting them in CONCACAF League, however, if our goal is to develop the league and our domestic players, CCL is a valuable tool to achieve that goal. Having to face much tougher opposition and different style of play will accelerate their development...also having to play in CONCACAF region. I'm not saying we'll win it or play a good as the top clubs but guys...are we seriously saying that we'll be any worse than some CFU clubs that have competed before??? I strongly disagree there. If we could get CCL instead of CL, we should collectively aim for that and if CL is all we get that's fine...as long as we did try to get CCL.

Also, the CCL experience might encourage the league and owners to grow better rosters faster as well. Who can argue that MLS' obsession at catching up to Liga MX didn't make them better and accelerated their investment to further grow the product? This could have the same effect on CPL trying to catch up to Central American leagues so they can advance or compete in the tournament. "training wheels + isolation" might make the league comfortable and provoke a much slower growth in my opinion.

• Relegation Playoffs
• The V Cup final should be held after the CPL Season & Championship promotion playoffs to help elevate the prestige of the tournament.

 

Championship - Division II

• 16-20 teams
• Single table from coast from coast
• Championship winner promotes to CPL
• Relegation playoffs, losers are relegated to their respective area Division III league
• After the CPL season, Promotion playoffs

 

National League

• Replication of a developmental model that has endured the test of time, by Canadians, for Canadians - Soccer version of the Canadian Hockey League which produces the best hockey players in the world. Not saying that it will do the same for soccer but it should help us become more competitive within our region.
• 4 League One (Pacific - Prairies - Ontario - Quebec & Maritime)
• The Champion of each respective leagues meets in a "Memorial Tournament" with the winner promoting to Championship
• Lower divisions and Universities feed into this league

Edited December 12, 2018 by Ansem

[Ansem]

21 hours ago, Kent said:

In my opinion it would make 0 sense for the CPL to be awarded it's own spot directly into the CCL right off the bat.

Do you believe that a CPL team would be any worse than the CFU clubs or Belize that have participated thus far?

I think not.

Edited December 12, 2018 by Ansem

[Kent]

4 hours ago, Ansem said:

Do you believe that a CPL team would be any worse than the CFU clubs or Belize that have participated thus far?

I think not.

No, that's not what I'm getting at. Your previous post goes on and on about how to make CCL and CL best serve CPL specifically, and at the expense of other federations. My position is for a more CONCACAF centric point of view. I think that right now CPL has done nothing to earn that CCL spot over other federations. I also feel that the Caribbean hasn't done enough to keep their CCL spot, and that El Salvador hasn't done enough to get a spot in CCL over a second Panamanian or Costa Rican spot, and I think if USA's results drop enough that they shouldn't have an eternal birthright to having 4 spots, etc.

I'm just advocating for a UEFA coefficient style system that will take the politics out of deciding which nations get how many spots in which competitions. Let the results determine it!

5 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Edit: it's a qualifying round for the Champions League so would make no sense to use it as a prize for the CPL winner.  Apart, it's set up for minimum travel by Caribbean and Central American teams. No good for us.

That's not my take on it. My take is that it is our version of the Europa league. It's the 2nd tier of continental competition in CONCACAF. Just like the Europa league, the champions get a spot in the Champions League, but it's still it's own competition and the point (I believe) is to have similar level teams compete against each other.

As for whether the region gives financial assistance to teams in this competition, I have no idea on that.

[Unnamed Trialist]

21 minutes ago, Kent said:

That's not my take on it. My take is that it is our version of the Europa league. It's the 2nd tier of continental competition in CONCACAF. Just like the Europa league, the champions get a spot in the Champions League, but it's still it's own competition and the point (I believe) is to have similar level teams compete against each other.

As for whether the region gives financial assistance to teams in this competition, I have no idea on that.

It'd be great if you were right, I am not sure.

Perhaps the only two questions would be this: would a CPL club be willing to travel to Jamaica, then to Nicaragua, then Costa Rica, then Panama, four long trips like that on the way to a final? And likewise for those clubs? Would Concacaf fund this? And would fans come out to watch from late July to late October, midweek, to see Arabe Unido or Herediano, teams that do not seem to be big draws in spite of having a certain name in the region?

I see that those qualifying do indeed qualify in ways similar to Europa League. For example, the 2nd and 3rd of the Caribbean club championship qualify, and there is a playoff for the fourth. Meaning, potentially, most Caribbean nations have a shot at it, along with the designated slots for the more powerful nations. Right now it is 13 for Central America and three for the Caribbean. As we stand, there is only one Champions League slot for the Caribbean, for the winner of their club tourney.

So it is like Europa, in general, with the sole exception of not letting Mexico, the US or Canada have teams in. Perhaps, indeed, to avoid seeing MX and MLS dominating and then simply qualifying yet another of their clubs for the Champions. So it is partially protected for this reason. 

But if you are right we could request a spot for CPL as you say, and it could be interesting. But worth it?

[Ansem]

1 hour ago, Kent said:

No, that's not what I'm getting at. Your previous post goes on and on about how to make CCL and CL best serve CPL specifically, and at the expense of other federations. My position is for a more CONCACAF centric point of view. I think that right now CPL has done nothing to earn that CCL spot over other federations. I also feel that the Caribbean hasn't done enough to keep their CCL spot, and that El Salvador hasn't done enough to get a spot in CCL over a second Panamanian or Costa Rican spot, and I think if USA's results drop enough that they shouldn't have an eternal birthright to having 4 spots, etc.

I'm just advocating for a UEFA coefficient style system that will take the politics out of deciding which nations get how many spots in which competitions. Let the results determine it!

Looking at the coefficient, Canada does indeed deserve better representation in that competition for multiple reasons. Now that we have more clubs and a top tier, it makes even more sense now. It isn't CPL making the request to CONCACAF but it's the CSA who's submitting such request, sure most likely at CPL's request but how is that any different than MLS asking USSF on their behalf to get more berth & perks?

Does MLS deserved 4 spots in CCL while having a very accommodating format for years to help them stay in the competition longer despite a one sided domination by Liga MX? They got what they ask / fought for. Same for the CFU zones who clearly holds the bulk of the votes.

It isn't always about what you deserve but about what you can get, especially in the FIFA world.

 Such a berth attached to a CPL cup significantly increases it's importance in Canada and if that helps making it more successful, we should look forward to that. There's nothing outrageous for our champion to go to CPL and the runner up going to CONCACAF League. I just don't understand that "moral high ground" that the CSA-CPL should walk on and I don't get how it benefits us in the grand scheme of things to be... humble & nice

 

Edited December 12, 2018 by Ansem

[Kent]

4 hours ago, Ansem said:

Looking at the coefficient, Canada does indeed deserve better representation in that competition for multiple reasons. Now that we have more clubs and a top tier, it makes even more sense now. It isn't CPL making the request to CONCACAF but it's the CSA who's submitting such request, sure most likely at CPL's request but how is that any different than MLS asking USSF on their behalf to get more berth & perks?

Does MLS deserved 4 spots in CCL while having a very accommodating format for years to help them stay in the competition longer despite a one sided domination by Liga MX? They got what they ask / fought for. Same for the CFU zones who clearly holds the bulk of the votes.

It isn't always about what you deserve but about what you can get, especially in the FIFA world.

 Such a berth attached to a CPL cup significantly increases it's importance in Canada and if that helps making it more successful, we should look forward to that. There's nothing outrageous for our champion to go to CPL and the runner up going to CONCACAF League. I just don't understand that "moral high ground" that the CSA-CPL should walk on and I don't get how it benefits us in the grand scheme of things to be... humble & nice

 

None of what I am suggesting is about CSA/CPL taking a moral high ground or us being humble and nice. I am talking about things that aren’t in the CSA’s control, but rather CONCACAF’s. I am talking about CONCACAF cleaning up their act. They have already made some baby steps. They no longer have the ridiculous rule about not allowing Mexican and American teams drawing each other in the first round, and they have created the CONCACAF Club Index for determining pots instead of having them politically decided.

As I have said in other threads, the math behind how CONCACAF Club Index points are awarded in CCL and CL seems to point to me that they want a scoring system that is weighted to be able to compare teams/countries across both competitions. So I firmly hope and believe CONCACAF will implement the changes I am talking about. And if these changes are done it will allow for things like Canada growing to the point where we have 4 teams in CCL. So I am not trying to say we should be meek or subservient. I am saying we shouldn’t be afraid of competition and a system where we have to earn our own way.

[Kent]

5 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

It'd be great if you were right, I am not sure.

Perhaps the only two questions would be this: would a CPL club be willing to travel to Jamaica, then to Nicaragua, then Costa Rica, then Panama, four long trips like that on the way to a final? And likewise for those clubs? Would Concacaf fund this? And would fans come out to watch from late July to late October, midweek, to see Arabe Unido or Herediano, teams that do not seem to be big draws in spite of having a certain name in the region?

I see that those qualifying do indeed qualify in ways similar to Europa League. For example, the 2nd and 3rd of the Caribbean club championship qualify, and there is a playoff for the fourth. Meaning, potentially, most Caribbean nations have a shot at it, along with the designated slots for the more powerful nations. Right now it is 13 for Central America and three for the Caribbean. As we stand, there is only one Champions League slot for the Caribbean, for the winner of their club tourney.

So it is like Europa, in general, with the sole exception of not letting Mexico, the US or Canada have teams in. Perhaps, indeed, to avoid seeing MX and MLS dominating and then simply qualifying yet another of their clubs for the Champions. So it is partially protected for this reason. 

But if you are right we could request a spot for CPL as you say, and it could be interesting. But worth it?

It’s very possible that you are right about cost cutting being at least part of the rationale behind CL and how the teams are split across the two competitions. I thought it was more because when those teams played against MLS and Lisa MX teams, the bigger teams didn’t take it seriously and the fans didn’t care. So they concentrated the competition at the top level but still gave some meaningful international games to the next tier of teams (and perhaps you are right about helping them avoid a trip far up north to play in front of few fans only to lose anyways).

Either way, I am excited for the journey ahead of us. I can’t wait to see how CPL in CONCACAF evolves

[juicy sushi]

I would strongly suggest looking to the J-League as the model to emulate.

They started off as a single-tier and build the clubs up over a decade and a half while encouraging the amateur game as much as possible.  After that decade and a half of growth, they introduced a second tier, and eventual promotion and relegation.  After another decade of growth a third professional tier is now there, with soccer-specific stadiums increasingly becoming the norm. 

The key issues are patience in building the first tier and letting it grow, and then only expanding after the demand for growth has become clear.  It's a slow burn, but has proven viable.

So, I guess slowly build the CPL to a 16-20 team league, and then look at several years after that, adding on a C2.  And another decade at least after that, C3.  We're a small population in a very big country, it's going to take a long time before 3 tiers of professional soccer are economically viable.

[Initial B]

I like the J-league model of growth too, but remember that Japan covers an area the size of the Quebec City-Windsor corridor with 10 times the population. Bullet trains can get teams to and from away stadiums the same day. I think looking at how countries of a similar surface area and population to Canada run things should be explored first.

Edited December 14, 2018 by Initial B

[juicy sushi]

7 minutes ago, Initial B said:

I like the J-league model of growth too, but remember that Japan covers an area the size of the Quebec City-Windsor corridor with 10 times the population. Bullet trains can get teams to and from away stadiums the same day. I think looking at how countries of a similar surface area and population to Canada run things should be explored first.

It’s a 4-hour flight from the furthest north team to the farthest south.  Not quite Canada, not quite western Europe.  Also, lower-league teams are running on budgets not dissimilar to what the CanPL is looking at.  

My point was more that slow, long-term growth was what the league needs to focus on.  Expanding too fast would be fatal.

There are very few places we can really look to as examples for us.  Maybe Chile in some ways as their north-south geography is similar to our thin, east-west band of habitation near the US border.  

[Initial B]

I did some playing around with possible locations of teams based on their population and existing non-MLS teams in Canada. How does this look for a possible structure? I think we have enough players that we could have a good-quality 10-team First Division, with a second division of varying quality. Div 3 will pretty much be U-23 development. What do you think? How would you organize the league so that it's sustainable and viable? 

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

On 12/13/2018 at 2:27 PM, juicy sushi said:

I would strongly suggest looking to the J-League as the model to emulate...

A lot of the older J League clubs grew out of corporate teams dating back to the 1960s like Yanmar Diesel, so not sure that really works. We also don't have anything like the JFL national amateur league that can serve as an incubator for new pro teams. The biggest thing to learn from the J League in my opinion would be how to get fan groups to get chants going properly across an entire end, but that's a story for another thread.

[Impactsupporter]

19 hours ago, Initial B said:

I did some playing around with possible locations of teams based on their population and existing non-MLS teams in Canada. How does this look for a possible structure? I think we have enough players that we could have a good-quality 10-team First Division, with a second division of varying quality. Div 3 will pretty much be U-23 development. What do you think? How would you organize the league so that it's sustainable and viable? 

I think this makes sense for D1 and D3.  I am ambivalent about D2 because I am not sure that some of these teams in that division will be able to withstand travel costs from coast to coast.  In a recent interview with Alex Bunbury he stated that he sees the CPL at 20 teams and he himself is ambivalent about pro-rel because of the money investors have put in.  Maybe if they used a split format as they do in Scotland for the SPL that could simulate relegation.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/1596665-scottish-premier-league-in-defence-of-the-split

 

Just a thought.

 

[juicy sushi]

16 hours ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

A lot of the older J League clubs grew out of corporate teams dating back to the 1960s like Yanmar Diesel, so not sure that really works. We also don't have anything like the JFL national amateur league that can serve as an incubator for new pro teams. The biggest thing to learn from the J League in my opinion would be how to get fan groups to get chants going properly across an entire end, but that's a story for another thread.

I think the L1O experience has been a useful short term incubator, although I think your other points are valid.  My point was more about going forward.  They started with J1, and only introduced a J2, and then a J3, when it had become sustainable.  That kind of long term patience is what a CPL will need.