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Initial B

CPL League Future Format and Table Structure

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to create a D2, should we wait until we have more clubs in D1? or more clubs in D3?
I can harldy believe tha a D2 can be created after we reach a significant number of clubs in D1 (14-18), since the clubs will hardly want to lower down. I would prefer that we stop expanding in D1 to create a D2.

 

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I was just doing some thinking, and I wonder if we have the whole Pro-Rel implementation backwards. Perhaps we should consider CanPL as a Div 2 base and break it up into two or three regional conferences for the foreseeable future to keep operational costs down. Then, once the league hits about 20 teams, announce that the season will promote the top 4 teams to the single-table CanPL Elite Division that would start the following season, with another 4-6 teams being promoted through the end of season playoffs. Then at the end of the following season, the bottom 1-2 Elite Division clubs would be relegated to regular CanPL with the CanPL playoff winners being promoted in their place.  

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36 minutes ago, Initial B said:

I was just doing some thinking, and I wonder if we have the whole Pro-Rel implementation backwards. Perhaps we should consider CanPL as a Div 2 base and break it up into two or three regional conferences for the foreseeable future to keep operational costs down. Then, once the league hits about 20 teams, announce that the season will promote the top 4 teams to the single-table CanPL Elite Division that would start the following season, with another 4-6 teams being promoted through the end of season playoffs. Then at the end of the following season, the bottom 1-2 Elite Division clubs would be relegated to regular CanPL with the CanPL playoff winners being promoted in their place.  

That isn't workable IMO.

- Right now it is functioning as a national league that goes coast to coast.  It would require a significant number of additional teams to get to the point where east/west divisions (or 3 regional conferences) are even viable  - otherwise you would have teams playing the bulk of their games against only 2 or 3 other teams.  This would be a huge step backwards from a supporter perspective.

- To get to the numbers required to make this work (ie. where "in -conference" games wouldn't be cripplingly repetitive) you would have to expand to have enough numbers to support two distinct leagues anyway.  And as soon as league membership got to that point, the intent would be to stratify into two leagues on the basis of results anyway.  Thus you don't really gain anything. 

- Lastly, once you establish the upper division, the remaining teams would face either the repetitive schedule of the conference system, or the challenging travel and operational costs of a national D2. 

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40 minutes ago, Aird25 said:

How can a league possibly transition from one that charges exorbitant expansion fees to one with multiple tiers on the pyramid? It just doesn't add up to me.

By continually repeating that that is the plan

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1 hour ago, deschamp86 said:

By continually repeating that that is the plan

It is a disincentive though for a middling market if they know they are entering at the stage where a pro rel split becomes a reality.  If you are the 16th-20th team in, and recognize that your municipality will have difficulty competing financially with the 8-10 strongest markets over a sustained period, it may be a factor against paying a substantial fee to join. 

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23 minutes ago, dyslexic nam said:

It is a disincentive though for a middling market if they know they are entering at the stage where a pro rel split becomes a reality.  If you are the 16th-20th team in, and recognize that your municipality will have difficulty competing financially with the 8-10 strongest markets over a sustained period, it may be a factor against paying a substantial fee to join. 

That is fine but truth be told, none of us know the fees involved. It is all just speculation. Anyone entering into the league will know that the plan is to have pro/rel because it is consistently being brought up.

Smaller markets definitely will not have the kind of money some are speculating ($9 million). That is why I don't necessarily believe it. The dollar amount is way higher than most prospective owners would be willing to pay, and keeping it at a seven team league will not increase the values of the existing clubs either so it doesn't make sense for the existing owners either.

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Just thinking about possibilities for what @Aird25 mentioned. Perhaps when the first tier is full and teams would "expand" into the 2nd tier they could do something like this. Say the expansion fee is $10 million for the last team that got in the first tier. Maybe a team can expand into the 2nd tier for that same (or similar) $10 million price, but a portion of that is deferred to if/when they promote to the top tier. So maybe they pay $2 million to play in the 2nd tier, then 10 years later they qualify for promotion to the top tier. If they choose to accept the promotion, they pay the remaining $8 million (likely over a period of years, I imagine all these expansion fees are paid over years, just like player transfer fees tend to be).

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3 hours ago, Aird25 said:

How can a league possibly transition from one that charges exorbitant expansion fees to one with multiple tiers on the pyramid? It just doesn't add up to me.

I don't know the breakdown of the fee but clubs are buying into CSB. The more valuable is CSB, the more expensive it gets to acquire a piece of it.

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15 minutes ago, Ansem said:

I don't know the breakdown of the fee but clubs are buying into CSB. The more valuable is CSB, the more expensive it gets to acquire a piece of it.

Is this facts or speculation? Ive been reading too much speculation reports, so I don't know what is actually real. 

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14 minutes ago, Shway said:

Is this facts or speculation? Ive been reading too much speculation reports, so I don't know what is actually real. 

It's fact that clubs owns a part of CSB so new clubs must buy in to get whatever revenues CSB generates like the MediaPro deal and whatever other means they come up with. They are the business arm of the league while CPL remains solely focused on operating the league / soccer operations. It's similar to what MLS is doing.

The difference however is that clubs aren't "franchises" like MLS. Clubs owns the contracts, not the league. I don't think that the league owns "shares" of the clubs nor vice-versa like MLS.

Edited by Ansem

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On 12/6/2019 at 10:12 AM, Aird25 said:

How can a league possibly transition from one that charges exorbitant expansion fees to one with multiple tiers on the pyramid? It just doesn't add up to me.

The way I see it, MLS keeps expanding and the expansion fees keep increasing at the same pace. CanPL expansion fees will probably increase for a while, then once Pro-Rel is implemented those fees will be frozen or reduced as new clubs will enter at the bottom of the pyramid, keeping it affordable for new clubs to enter. If that seems unfair to clubs who paid at Div 1, then they should have put together a better squad that would have allowed them promotion.

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On 12/5/2019 at 1:50 PM, dyslexic nam said:

That isn't workable IMO.

- Right now it is functioning as a national league that goes coast to coast.  It would require a significant number of additional teams to get to the point where east/west divisions (or 3 regional conferences) are even viable  - otherwise you would have teams playing the bulk of their games against only 2 or 3 other teams.  This would be a huge step backwards from a supporter perspective.

- To get to the numbers required to make this work (ie. where "in -conference" games wouldn't be cripplingly repetitive) you would have to expand to have enough numbers to support two distinct leagues anyway.  And as soon as league membership got to that point, the intent would be to stratify into two leagues on the basis of results anyway.  Thus you don't really gain anything. 

- Lastly, once you establish the upper division, the remaining teams would face either the repetitive schedule of the conference system, or the challenging travel and operational costs of a national D2. 

I was assuming that CanPL would be broken into regional conferences with schedule like MLS, where each team plays a team from the opposing conferences once, and the remaining games would be played within their conference, with playoffs seeding the top 8 teams in the league. Say West: Pacific, Fraser Valley, FCE, Cavalry, Saskatoon, Winnipeg; Central: London, Kitchener-Waterloo, Forge, Mississauga, York 9; East: Ottawa, Laval, Quebec City, Moncton/Saint John, Wanderers, St John's. That would be 11-12 games out of conference and the remaining 16 games in conference. No more than 3-4 games per season against each in-conference team.

At 24 teams, you could break into an 8-team, single-table Div 1, and a 16-team, 3 Conference div 2.

Edited by Initial B

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2021 BC Tier 3:
Victoria Highlanders

TSS Rovers

Whitecaps U23

Pacific FC 2

Fraser Valley

Okanaghan Valley

 

2022 Alberta Tier 3:
FC Edmonton 2

an other Edmonton club

Red Deer

Lethbridge

Cavalry 2

Calgary Foothills

 

2023 Centre Tier 3:
Saskatoon

Regina

Valour 2

WSA Winnipeg

Thunder Bay Chill

Sudbury

 

2024 Maritimes Tier 3:
Moncton

Fredericton

Saint John (NB)

HFX Wanderers 2

Charlottetown

St. John's (NFL)

 

2025-2026 Creation of Tier 2:

3 divisions of 6-8 clubs

 

By 2026, we could have:
D1 : 10-14 clubs

D2: 3 x 6-8 clubs

D3: BC (6), Alberta (6), Centre (6), L1O, PLSQ, Maritimes (6)

After that, we can think about ProRel and MLS clubs back in Canada

Edited by mtlsab

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13 minutes ago, mtlsab said:

Tier 3:
Saskatoon

Regina

Valour 2

WSA Winnipeg

Thunder Bay Chill

Sudbury

Sudbury to Thunder Bay: 11 hours

Sudbury to Toronto: 4 hours

If Sudbury were to join a league it would be League1 Ontario. I can't imagine them wanting to join a league where the closest team is 11 hours away rather than the average team is 4 hours away

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36 minutes ago, deschamp86 said:

Sudbury to Thunder Bay: 11 hours

Sudbury to Toronto: 4 hours

If Sudbury were to join a league it would be League1 Ontario. I can't imagine them wanting to join a league where the closest team is 11 hours away rather than the average team is 4 hours away

Thanks for letting me know, I thought Sudbury was closer to Thunder Bay than Toronto

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1 hour ago, mtlsab said:

2021 BC Tier 3:
Victoria Highlanders

TSS Rovers

Whitecaps U23

Pacific FC 2

Fraser Valley

Okanaghan Valley

 

2022 Alberta Tier 3:
FC Edmonton 2

an other Edmonton club

Red Deer

Lethbridge

Cavalry 2

Calgary Foothills

 

2023 Centre Tier 3:
Saskatoon

Regina

Valour 2

WSA Winnipeg

Thunder Bay Chill

Sudbury

 

2024 Maritimes Tier 3:
Moncton

Fredericton

Saint John (NB)

HFX Wanderers 2

Charlottetown

St. John's (NFL)

 

2025-2026 Creation of Tier 2:

3 divisions of 6-8 clubs

 

By 2026, we could have:
D1 : 10-14 clubs

D2: 3 x 6-8 clubs

D3: BC (6), Alberta (6), Centre (6), L1O, PLSQ, Maritimes (6)

After that, we can think about ProRel and MLS clubs back in Canada

The only thing I would question is the need to bring Tier 3 regions online only one region per year.  In the Maritimes, if you take the level of play to be roughly equivalent to the existing top tier of amateur footy available locally (NS and NB Premier leagues - PEI fields a team in the NB league) I suspect they would be largely ready to go without much change of operation. 

The only real hiccup for the easternmost provinces is incorporating Nfld, which makes the region Atlantic (PE, NS, NB, NL)  not Maritime  (PE, NS, NB).  This adds a wrinkle though, because travel to Nfld is a lot more challenging/expensive than travel among the 3 Maritime provinces where land based options exist. 

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40 minutes ago, dyslexic nam said:

The only thing I would question is the need to bring Tier 3 regions online only one region per year.  In the Maritimes, if you take the level of play to be roughly equivalent to the existing top tier of amateur footy available locally (NS and NB Premier leagues - PEI fields a team in the NB league) I suspect they would be largely ready to go without much change of operation. 

The only real hiccup for the easternmost provinces is incorporating Nfld, which makes the region Atlantic (PE, NS, NB, NL)  not Maritime  (PE, NS, NB).  This adds a wrinkle though, because travel to Nfld is a lot more challenging/expensive than travel among the 3 Maritime provinces where land based options exist. 

It was a suggestion. I've kept Atlantic for the last since it is the only region where there is no clubs playing in the USL League 2

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4 hours ago, mtlsab said:

2021 BC Tier 3:
Victoria Highlanders

TSS Rovers

Whitecaps U23

Pacific FC 2

Fraser Valley

Okanaghan Valley

 

2022 Alberta Tier 3:
FC Edmonton 2

an other Edmonton club

Red Deer

Lethbridge

Cavalry 2

Calgary Foothills

 

2023 Centre Tier 3:
Saskatoon

Regina

Valour 2

WSA Winnipeg

Thunder Bay Chill

Sudbury

 

2024 Maritimes Tier 3:
Moncton

Fredericton

Saint John (NB)

HFX Wanderers 2

Charlottetown

St. John's (NFL)

 

2025-2026 Creation of Tier 2:

3 divisions of 6-8 clubs

 

By 2026, we could have:
D1 : 10-14 clubs

D2: 3 x 6-8 clubs

D3: BC (6), Alberta (6), Centre (6), L1O, PLSQ, Maritimes (6)

After that, we can think about ProRel and MLS clubs back in Canada

What about integrating the D3 with USports so as to have an integrated structure between the two ie

the D3 leagues play from May to August and the USports teams play from Sept-Oct.  It has already started with some teams eg. Windsor Ontario

https://golancers.ca/news/2019/2/20/mens-soccer-lancers-windsor-tfc-form-partnership.aspx

Just a thought.

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4 minutes ago, Impactsupporter said:

What about integrating the D3 with USports so as to have an integrated structure between the two ie

the D3 leagues play from May to August and the USports teams play from Sept-Oct.  It has already started with some teams eg. Windsor Ontario

https://golancers.ca/news/2019/2/20/mens-soccer-lancers-windsor-tfc-form-partnership.aspx

Just a thought.

I thought that what can be don is that the D3 starts a bit after CanPL and finish at the end of August. So some players can play in Usport and others can be loaned to CanPL for the end of the season

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Assuming we get to 12 with Fraser Valley, SK, Quebec, and A.N. Other Ontario team (Mississauga or K-W), I could see geography used for scheduling but maintaining the single table.

You play everybody else twice (22 games), the remaining 5 teams in your "conference" once further each, and one more game against your local rival.

Yes, you'd only be playing teams on the other side of the Great Lakes twice overall, and your local rivals 4 times. Those rivalries like Pacific vs Fraser Valley (Juan de Fuca Plate redux?) save on travel and can be hyped up twice each half-season.

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I'd rather you play 22 and then break into 3 group of 4, playing 6 more home and away. The 3 group winners join the highest seed in the table in a semi final.

It's like a season, a league cup, and a playoff, but stays at the current number of matches. I don't think we can schedule many more in this country.

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The worry I have is that due to population density, there will eventually be a majority of teams concentrated in the Golden Horseshoe, which will provide an economic advantage over clubs that are more isolated as they could take a team bus to and from away games without requiring accommodations, saving tens of thousands of dollars per match. It might get to the point where those isolated clubs can't keep up with the Ontario clubs and we end up with all the teams in Ontario like the CSL (but hopefully at least without the match-fixing). The only way I can see to level the playing field is for CanPL to take on the responsibility for all travel and accomodation arrangements for teams from a central fund that all clubs pay into each season. Some clubs might use it more than others and that would be fine, but at least it would level the economic playing field.

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2 hours ago, Initial B said:

The worry I have is that due to population density, there will eventually be a majority of teams concentrated in the Golden Horseshoe...

Well d'uh. That is one of the reasons for the salary cap, to maintain some sort of parity.

Some sort of travel pool might be helpful but that could be dealt with by good airline sponsor deals I would think.

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