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Initial B

CPL League Future Format and Table Structure

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6 hours ago, mtlsab said:

Ive got a couple of concerns regarding the upcoming pyramid, Pro/Rel

Can we create a D2? (lets say 3 conferences) If yes, should we do it ASAP?
Do you believe we can handle multiple provincial leagues for D3? We already have Québec and Ontario, BC is Under construction. Can we have one for Alberta only? One for Sask, Manitoba and Northwestern Ontario? Could we have one for Maritimes only?

My hope/dream would be to build more D3 leagues and get more CPL teams. Then eventually when we hit critical mass, promote a few D3 teams per league and take any would be CPL expansion teams and put them all in a D2 league. Either national or split into two regions. Whatever looks like it might work. And the moment we get that D2 league have pro/rel for all three tiers.

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On 11/3/2019 at 7:11 PM, grasshopper1917 said:

Honestly I don't understand people who keep insisting on promotion and relegation in a North American sports league. Let alone a soccer league in Canada. I think 10 years out from now if we have 10 markets that are supporting a fully professional soccer league that will be a massive success.

Promotion and relegation in a geographically massive country like Canada is virtually impossible. No idea why people keep pushing such an idea.

The reason for promotion/relegation is to have two different levels of financial outlay for clubs. Since all clubs are individually owned, there may be points in their existence where they cannot handle the salaries and operating costs associated with that level. I've been reviewing a lot of leagues around the world on Wikipedia and you would be surprised at how many national federations have Div 1 teams that voluntarily drop to a lower division because operating costs got to be too much for them. A Div 2 would give CanPL clubs the ability to regroup and recover costs without completely folding, which is what seems to happen in North American Minor league clubs on a regular basis.

That said, one of the biggest operating costs besides player salaries is the transportation and accommodations issues that have no parallel outside North America except maybe Brazil and Russia. So a lower league would probably have to be regionalized or semi-regionalized. I would break it down as: Div 1 - Air Travel/Hotel; Div 2 - Bus Travel/Motel and some Air Travel/Hotel; Div 3 - Bus Travel/Motel.

In my dream set-up, I would want a 10-team Div 1 with the top 4 teams playing for the championship at the end of the year and the bottom two teams relegated to Div 2. These would be the elite clubs in the nation (outside of MLS) and have the resources to compete internationally as well. For Div 2,  I would want 15-21 clubs divided into 3 regional Conferences (West, Central, East) of 4-7 clubs each, where they play one game against each out-of-Conference club and the remaining games against in-Conference clubs. Top 8 clubs overall compete in end-of-season playoffs for the two vacant Div 1 spots. The relegated Div 1 clubs are placed in their local region to recover their form.  Clubs that are still too financially sick to make it at Div 2 should be allowed to drop down to a regional semi-Pro Div 3, either PLSQ (incl Atlantic Provinces), L1O, or the upcoming western Div3. Any Div 3 club can choose to join Div 2 the following season once they pay an entry fee.

Edited by Initial B

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7 hours ago, mtlsab said:

Ive got a couple of concerns regarding the upcoming pyramid, Pro/Rel

You say that like it is happening anytime soon. LOL

At the current rate of "expansion" I don't think we are talking about enough teams for a D2 for a decade or two. ;)

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16 hours ago, Initial B said:

The reason for promotion/relegation is to have two different levels of financial outlay for clubs. Since all clubs are individually owned, there may be points in their existence where they cannot handle the salaries and operating costs associated with that level. I've been reviewing a lot of leagues around the world on Wikipedia and you would be surprised at how many national federations have Div 1 teams that voluntarily drop to a lower division because operating costs got to be too much for them. A Div 2 would give CanPL clubs the ability to regroup and recover costs without completely folding, which is what seems to happen in North American Minor league clubs on a regular basis.

That said, one of the biggest operating costs besides player salaries is the transportation and accommodations issues that have no parallel outside North America except maybe Brazil and Russia. So a lower league would probably have to be regionalized or semi-regionalized. I would break it down as: Div 1 - Air Travel/Hotel; Div 2 - Bus Travel/Motel and some Air Travel/Hotel; Div 3 - Bus Travel/Motel.

Promotion/relegation and division 2 are a long way off but if we stop aiming for that we will never achieve it. 

You're right, the only way to make lower divisions work would be to have different regions and have those regions become smaller the further down the pyramid you go.  We're seeing in PLSQ right now that the financial demand of running some of these clubs is more than what owners signed up for and they are opting to move to a significantly lower level of play because of it.  

When the CPL owners feel that a division 2 level can get close to the attendance numbers that CHL teams do I think we'll see it.

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to create a D2, should we wait until we have more clubs in D1? or more clubs in D3?
I can harldy believe tha a D2 can be created after we reach a significant number of clubs in D1 (14-18), since the clubs will hardly want to lower down. I would prefer that we stop expanding in D1 to create a D2.

 

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I was just doing some thinking, and I wonder if we have the whole Pro-Rel implementation backwards. Perhaps we should consider CanPL as a Div 2 base and break it up into two or three regional conferences for the foreseeable future to keep operational costs down. Then, once the league hits about 20 teams, announce that the season will promote the top 4 teams to the single-table CanPL Elite Division that would start the following season, with another 4-6 teams being promoted through the end of season playoffs. Then at the end of the following season, the bottom 1-2 Elite Division clubs would be relegated to regular CanPL with the CanPL playoff winners being promoted in their place.  

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36 minutes ago, Initial B said:

I was just doing some thinking, and I wonder if we have the whole Pro-Rel implementation backwards. Perhaps we should consider CanPL as a Div 2 base and break it up into two or three regional conferences for the foreseeable future to keep operational costs down. Then, once the league hits about 20 teams, announce that the season will promote the top 4 teams to the single-table CanPL Elite Division that would start the following season, with another 4-6 teams being promoted through the end of season playoffs. Then at the end of the following season, the bottom 1-2 Elite Division clubs would be relegated to regular CanPL with the CanPL playoff winners being promoted in their place.  

That isn't workable IMO.

- Right now it is functioning as a national league that goes coast to coast.  It would require a significant number of additional teams to get to the point where east/west divisions (or 3 regional conferences) are even viable  - otherwise you would have teams playing the bulk of their games against only 2 or 3 other teams.  This would be a huge step backwards from a supporter perspective.

- To get to the numbers required to make this work (ie. where "in -conference" games wouldn't be cripplingly repetitive) you would have to expand to have enough numbers to support two distinct leagues anyway.  And as soon as league membership got to that point, the intent would be to stratify into two leagues on the basis of results anyway.  Thus you don't really gain anything. 

- Lastly, once you establish the upper division, the remaining teams would face either the repetitive schedule of the conference system, or the challenging travel and operational costs of a national D2. 

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40 minutes ago, Aird25 said:

How can a league possibly transition from one that charges exorbitant expansion fees to one with multiple tiers on the pyramid? It just doesn't add up to me.

By continually repeating that that is the plan

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1 hour ago, deschamp86 said:

By continually repeating that that is the plan

It is a disincentive though for a middling market if they know they are entering at the stage where a pro rel split becomes a reality.  If you are the 16th-20th team in, and recognize that your municipality will have difficulty competing financially with the 8-10 strongest markets over a sustained period, it may be a factor against paying a substantial fee to join. 

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23 minutes ago, dyslexic nam said:

It is a disincentive though for a middling market if they know they are entering at the stage where a pro rel split becomes a reality.  If you are the 16th-20th team in, and recognize that your municipality will have difficulty competing financially with the 8-10 strongest markets over a sustained period, it may be a factor against paying a substantial fee to join. 

That is fine but truth be told, none of us know the fees involved. It is all just speculation. Anyone entering into the league will know that the plan is to have pro/rel because it is consistently being brought up.

Smaller markets definitely will not have the kind of money some are speculating ($9 million). That is why I don't necessarily believe it. The dollar amount is way higher than most prospective owners would be willing to pay, and keeping it at a seven team league will not increase the values of the existing clubs either so it doesn't make sense for the existing owners either.

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Just thinking about possibilities for what @Aird25 mentioned. Perhaps when the first tier is full and teams would "expand" into the 2nd tier they could do something like this. Say the expansion fee is $10 million for the last team that got in the first tier. Maybe a team can expand into the 2nd tier for that same (or similar) $10 million price, but a portion of that is deferred to if/when they promote to the top tier. So maybe they pay $2 million to play in the 2nd tier, then 10 years later they qualify for promotion to the top tier. If they choose to accept the promotion, they pay the remaining $8 million (likely over a period of years, I imagine all these expansion fees are paid over years, just like player transfer fees tend to be).

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3 hours ago, Aird25 said:

How can a league possibly transition from one that charges exorbitant expansion fees to one with multiple tiers on the pyramid? It just doesn't add up to me.

I don't know the breakdown of the fee but clubs are buying into CSB. The more valuable is CSB, the more expensive it gets to acquire a piece of it.

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15 minutes ago, Ansem said:

I don't know the breakdown of the fee but clubs are buying into CSB. The more valuable is CSB, the more expensive it gets to acquire a piece of it.

Is this facts or speculation? Ive been reading too much speculation reports, so I don't know what is actually real. 

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14 minutes ago, Shway said:

Is this facts or speculation? Ive been reading too much speculation reports, so I don't know what is actually real. 

It's fact that clubs owns a part of CSB so new clubs must buy in to get whatever revenues CSB generates like the MediaPro deal and whatever other means they come up with. They are the business arm of the league while CPL remains solely focused on operating the league / soccer operations. It's similar to what MLS is doing.

The difference however is that clubs aren't "franchises" like MLS. Clubs owns the contracts, not the league. I don't think that the league owns "shares" of the clubs nor vice-versa like MLS.

Edited by Ansem

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On 12/6/2019 at 10:12 AM, Aird25 said:

How can a league possibly transition from one that charges exorbitant expansion fees to one with multiple tiers on the pyramid? It just doesn't add up to me.

The way I see it, MLS keeps expanding and the expansion fees keep increasing at the same pace. CanPL expansion fees will probably increase for a while, then once Pro-Rel is implemented those fees will be frozen or reduced as new clubs will enter at the bottom of the pyramid, keeping it affordable for new clubs to enter. If that seems unfair to clubs who paid at Div 1, then they should have put together a better squad that would have allowed them promotion.

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On 12/5/2019 at 1:50 PM, dyslexic nam said:

That isn't workable IMO.

- Right now it is functioning as a national league that goes coast to coast.  It would require a significant number of additional teams to get to the point where east/west divisions (or 3 regional conferences) are even viable  - otherwise you would have teams playing the bulk of their games against only 2 or 3 other teams.  This would be a huge step backwards from a supporter perspective.

- To get to the numbers required to make this work (ie. where "in -conference" games wouldn't be cripplingly repetitive) you would have to expand to have enough numbers to support two distinct leagues anyway.  And as soon as league membership got to that point, the intent would be to stratify into two leagues on the basis of results anyway.  Thus you don't really gain anything. 

- Lastly, once you establish the upper division, the remaining teams would face either the repetitive schedule of the conference system, or the challenging travel and operational costs of a national D2. 

I was assuming that CanPL would be broken into regional conferences with schedule like MLS, where each team plays a team from the opposing conferences once, and the remaining games would be played within their conference, with playoffs seeding the top 8 teams in the league. Say West: Pacific, Fraser Valley, FCE, Cavalry, Saskatoon, Winnipeg; Central: London, Kitchener-Waterloo, Forge, Mississauga, York 9; East: Ottawa, Laval, Quebec City, Moncton/Saint John, Wanderers, St John's. That would be 11-12 games out of conference and the remaining 16 games in conference. No more than 3-4 games per season against each in-conference team.

At 24 teams, you could break into an 8-team, single-table Div 1, and a 16-team, 3 Conference div 2.

Edited by Initial B

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2021 BC Tier 3:
Victoria Highlanders

TSS Rovers

Whitecaps U23

Pacific FC 2

Fraser Valley

Okanaghan Valley

 

2022 Alberta Tier 3:
FC Edmonton 2

an other Edmonton club

Red Deer

Lethbridge

Cavalry 2

Calgary Foothills

 

2023 Centre Tier 3:
Saskatoon

Regina

Valour 2

WSA Winnipeg

Thunder Bay Chill

Sudbury

 

2024 Maritimes Tier 3:
Moncton

Fredericton

Saint John (NB)

HFX Wanderers 2

Charlottetown

St. John's (NFL)

 

2025-2026 Creation of Tier 2:

3 divisions of 6-8 clubs

 

By 2026, we could have:
D1 : 10-14 clubs

D2: 3 x 6-8 clubs

D3: BC (6), Alberta (6), Centre (6), L1O, PLSQ, Maritimes (6)

After that, we can think about ProRel and MLS clubs back in Canada

Edited by mtlsab

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13 minutes ago, mtlsab said:

Tier 3:
Saskatoon

Regina

Valour 2

WSA Winnipeg

Thunder Bay Chill

Sudbury

Sudbury to Thunder Bay: 11 hours

Sudbury to Toronto: 4 hours

If Sudbury were to join a league it would be League1 Ontario. I can't imagine them wanting to join a league where the closest team is 11 hours away rather than the average team is 4 hours away

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36 minutes ago, deschamp86 said:

Sudbury to Thunder Bay: 11 hours

Sudbury to Toronto: 4 hours

If Sudbury were to join a league it would be League1 Ontario. I can't imagine them wanting to join a league where the closest team is 11 hours away rather than the average team is 4 hours away

Thanks for letting me know, I thought Sudbury was closer to Thunder Bay than Toronto

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1 hour ago, mtlsab said:

2021 BC Tier 3:
Victoria Highlanders

TSS Rovers

Whitecaps U23

Pacific FC 2

Fraser Valley

Okanaghan Valley

 

2022 Alberta Tier 3:
FC Edmonton 2

an other Edmonton club

Red Deer

Lethbridge

Cavalry 2

Calgary Foothills

 

2023 Centre Tier 3:
Saskatoon

Regina

Valour 2

WSA Winnipeg

Thunder Bay Chill

Sudbury

 

2024 Maritimes Tier 3:
Moncton

Fredericton

Saint John (NB)

HFX Wanderers 2

Charlottetown

St. John's (NFL)

 

2025-2026 Creation of Tier 2:

3 divisions of 6-8 clubs

 

By 2026, we could have:
D1 : 10-14 clubs

D2: 3 x 6-8 clubs

D3: BC (6), Alberta (6), Centre (6), L1O, PLSQ, Maritimes (6)

After that, we can think about ProRel and MLS clubs back in Canada

The only thing I would question is the need to bring Tier 3 regions online only one region per year.  In the Maritimes, if you take the level of play to be roughly equivalent to the existing top tier of amateur footy available locally (NS and NB Premier leagues - PEI fields a team in the NB league) I suspect they would be largely ready to go without much change of operation. 

The only real hiccup for the easternmost provinces is incorporating Nfld, which makes the region Atlantic (PE, NS, NB, NL)  not Maritime  (PE, NS, NB).  This adds a wrinkle though, because travel to Nfld is a lot more challenging/expensive than travel among the 3 Maritime provinces where land based options exist. 

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40 minutes ago, dyslexic nam said:

The only thing I would question is the need to bring Tier 3 regions online only one region per year.  In the Maritimes, if you take the level of play to be roughly equivalent to the existing top tier of amateur footy available locally (NS and NB Premier leagues - PEI fields a team in the NB league) I suspect they would be largely ready to go without much change of operation. 

The only real hiccup for the easternmost provinces is incorporating Nfld, which makes the region Atlantic (PE, NS, NB, NL)  not Maritime  (PE, NS, NB).  This adds a wrinkle though, because travel to Nfld is a lot more challenging/expensive than travel among the 3 Maritime provinces where land based options exist. 

It was a suggestion. I've kept Atlantic for the last since it is the only region where there is no clubs playing in the USL League 2

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4 hours ago, mtlsab said:

2021 BC Tier 3:
Victoria Highlanders

TSS Rovers

Whitecaps U23

Pacific FC 2

Fraser Valley

Okanaghan Valley

 

2022 Alberta Tier 3:
FC Edmonton 2

an other Edmonton club

Red Deer

Lethbridge

Cavalry 2

Calgary Foothills

 

2023 Centre Tier 3:
Saskatoon

Regina

Valour 2

WSA Winnipeg

Thunder Bay Chill

Sudbury

 

2024 Maritimes Tier 3:
Moncton

Fredericton

Saint John (NB)

HFX Wanderers 2

Charlottetown

St. John's (NFL)

 

2025-2026 Creation of Tier 2:

3 divisions of 6-8 clubs

 

By 2026, we could have:
D1 : 10-14 clubs

D2: 3 x 6-8 clubs

D3: BC (6), Alberta (6), Centre (6), L1O, PLSQ, Maritimes (6)

After that, we can think about ProRel and MLS clubs back in Canada

What about integrating the D3 with USports so as to have an integrated structure between the two ie

the D3 leagues play from May to August and the USports teams play from Sept-Oct.  It has already started with some teams eg. Windsor Ontario

https://golancers.ca/news/2019/2/20/mens-soccer-lancers-windsor-tfc-form-partnership.aspx

Just a thought.

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4 minutes ago, Impactsupporter said:

What about integrating the D3 with USports so as to have an integrated structure between the two ie

the D3 leagues play from May to August and the USports teams play from Sept-Oct.  It has already started with some teams eg. Windsor Ontario

https://golancers.ca/news/2019/2/20/mens-soccer-lancers-windsor-tfc-form-partnership.aspx

Just a thought.

I thought that what can be don is that the D3 starts a bit after CanPL and finish at the end of August. So some players can play in Usport and others can be loaned to CanPL for the end of the season

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