2016 Red Team Playoff Clinching Watch (aka Toronto FC 2016 MLS season thread)

[Grizzly]

3 hours ago, Keegan said:

Lukas Podolski played the 2004-2005 season in B2 with 24 goals in 30 league appearances and that didn't stop him from getting into Germany's 2005 Confederation Cup squad.  

Also Oliver Neuville played in the 2007-2008 B2 season (alongside Rob Friend at Gladbach) and was a member of the German squad that made it to the Euro final that summer.  

 

These were top 1st Bundesliga players whose team got relegated and they went down to B2 for one season out of loyalty to the team and to help them promote again. They had already proven their quality. There is a big difference between that and someone who was a bit player in Serie A and went to a lower level league for more money and playing time.

[Unnamed Trialist]

If you look at the few cases in Spain over the past 25 years, they all have to do with situations like what Grizzly is describing. Angel went down one season to 2nd with Celta, around 2010, and Aragonés continued to call him into the national team, he kept asking to be sold to a 1st div club early that season.

Salva Ballesta was top scorer in 2nd with At Madrid when they were down around 2001 and were leading the division to promote back up immediately, and was called into the national team. 

Then cases like the Dane-Spaniard Thomas Christiansen who was with Barcelona B in the early 1990s, like Martin Montoya more recently, Barcelona B players who had seen 1st team action but were playing in 2nd with the reserve side, but gpt called to play for the national team of Spain. 

 

[Unnamed Trialist]

BTW my favourite for the semis is TFC, for no other reason that I like how they play when they start ticking. Quite an enjoyable style, and I admit, Giovinco really is fascinating and entertaining, so I'm into watching him.

Montreal has talent in spots, but also has players I find irritating, and for me the team is speculating, they counter and control defensively, but are not as good in teamwork attacking. 

[Gian-Luca]

53 minutes ago, masster said:

I recall Massimo Maccarone being called up to the Italian National team in 2002 when playing for Empoli in Serie B. He is the only Serie B player I can recall playing for the Senior National Team in my lifetime. He only ever received 2 caps.

Yeah, I remember that - I believed he played against England in a friendly, came on late and either scored or set up the winning goal and then promptly was signed by Middlesborough to play in the EPL (where he stopped getting called to Italy's national team).  According to wikipedia he was the first player in 70 years to be called to the Italian national team from Serie B without having ever played in Serie A, so extremely rare indeed.

 

[Gian-Luca]

This article contains some different quotes from Ventura that I hadn't seen before where he indicates that he tried to sign Giovinco for two years to play for Torino, virtually opening the door himself for someone to interpret his lack of inclusion of Giovinco as a sign of bitterness for Giovinco having turned him down in the past:

http://www.mlssoccer.com/post/2016/11/09/giovincos-agent-fires-back-italy-manager-after-roster-exclusion

Giovinco's TFC teammates & coach also weigh in, including Osorio:

http://www.mlssoccer.com/post/2016/11/09/toronto-fc-defend-giovinco-after-italy-snub-ignorance-our-league

 

[Grizzly]

It bothers me when Europeans don't recognize or respect the quality of MLS as something similar to 2nd Bundesliga or Eredivisie (minus both the really strong and weak teams in that league) but for the most part I have to agree with Ventura and people overestimating MLS are just as ignorant. Ventura pretty much describes why DeRo was an MLS star but such a disappointment at the international level. And as a fan of both MLS and the Russian Premiership Giovinco's agent is completely wrong in comparing the level of the two leagues (and why did he make the comparison anyway given that the Italians in Russia were not called either). The next goal of MLS needs to be to reach the level of leagues such as Russia or France but it is still pretty far away from that. As I stated before he should have been nominated for if not the winner of MLS MVP but there is no injustice being done in his exclusion from Italy (which is better from a TFC standpoint anyway with the playoff games coming up).  

[Unnamed Trialist]

Regardless, thinking about this call-up, Italy had Liechtenstein away, not like their most difficult match.

Meaning either you could go with the regulars and make it easy, or choose to bring in new guys since the rivals are manageable. How many new or non-regular call ups are in this Italy squad anyways? Spain only called in new players for this weekend due to a bunch of injuries, Pique, Iniesta, Ramos and Diego Costa all out, don't think it was the case for Italy, who only added Zappacosta and De Rossi to the starters vs. Lichtenstein, the other 9 were the same against Macedonia in October. I think the only key changes to the entire squad was Zappacosta in, making his senior debut, and Sansone out. 

So it is not like Italy was improvising, even against an authentic minnow.

 

[TRM]

On 2016-11-10 at 1:16 PM, Grizzly said:

It bothers me when Europeans don't recognize or respect the quality of MLS as something similar to 2nd Bundesliga or Eredivisie (minus both the really strong and weak teams in that league)

And there in lies the problem. In a parity based league how do you get noticed? Unlike almost every league in Europe where you have 2-3 top teams year after year we have quite the rotation in MLS.

MLS is as you state full of mid table B2 level teams. Some teams are good for several years in a row but it is very hard to dominate. Which might lead to the attitude that if you can't totally dominate the league then how good could you be?

[Unnamed Trialist]

On 13/11/2016 at 7:31 PM, TRM said:

And there in lies the problem. In a parity based league how do you get noticed? Unlike almost every league in Europe where you have 2-3 top teams year after year we have quite the rotation in MLS.

MLS is as you state full of mid table B2 level teams. Some teams are good for several years in a row but it is very hard to dominate. Which might lead to the attitude that if you can't totally dominate the league then how good could you be?

As folks know I am in favour of seeing a team or two dominate and screw parity. I mean, in a lot of US pro sports there are parity rules, like salary caps and drafts favouring weaker teams, and still, some teams still tend to be very competitive and others regularly stink. Because some are run very well and are run to win, and others are hapless.

A dynasty in MLS would be good, simply because parity is a starting point, not an end point. I want to see a club figure out how to become a dynasty in a parity-based league. Because it'll prove they are clever as hell and top quality professionals, and they have outsmarted their rivals. Right now, MLS is like: no one is smart enough to figure out the system yet, not one owner group-coaching staff. And that's a bad sign.

 

[Mister215Guy]

Well, let's say TFC made some really smart decisions with signing Giovinco being only one of many. Just get rid of Bradley and Altidore and other stinky Americans and replace them with international quality and Canadian DP's.

[BuzzAndSting]

42 minutes ago, Mister215Guy said:

Well, let's say TFC made some really smart decisions with signing Giovinco being only one of many. Just get rid of Bradley and Altidore and other stinky Americans and replace them with international quality and Canadian DP's.

What Canadian do you think could score at about a .5/90 rate in MLS?

[paul-collins]

Get rid of Altidore.  

Yeah, right.

I think next year Johnson is looking at inheriting Bradley's role, but there isn't a Canadian ready to replace Altidore.  In a year or two, maybe Larin or (if he continues to develop) Jordan Hamilton.  

Honestly, give Hamilton another year or two behind Altidore and I think he could learn the role.

[Keegan]

1 hour ago, paul-collins said:

Get rid of Altidore.  

Yeah, right.

I think next year Johnson is looking at inheriting Bradley's role, but there isn't a Canadian ready to replace Altidore.  In a year or two, maybe Larin or (if he continues to develop) Jordan Hamilton.  

Honestly, give Hamilton another year or two behind Altidore and I think he could learn the role.

 

I agree about Jordan Hamilton, but Larin not at the level of Altidore?  I'd disagree and say Larin is a better striker in this league than Altidore, I don't think many could argue that aside from Kurt Larson.  Let's be real here, Altidore has had a good past few months and if not for that this wouldn't even be an argument.  

What do you think Larin could do on TFC?  I think he would be deadly.  Larin is much better dribbling with the ball at pace, imagine him and Giovinco on breaks.  He also seems to be a better finisher, he has really had some class finishes in these last 2 years, it honestly looks like he's trolling the defenders/keeper with his finishes he doesn't seem to try at all.  Altidore seems to be more of a scrappy/power them in type. 

That said, I wouldn't risk screwing up a good thing.  I was one of the most vocal critics of Altidore but in his form I'm more than happy.  He is a very unintelligent player/person but with his physical gifts he's a nightmare for defenders, that's exactly what he's here for.  I cringe every time I see him lose his temper or try to make a "finesse" play... sometimes I wonder, who does he think he is?  Stick to your role.  

[Havoc88]

I'm a Larin homer but I think after this season you have to admit he still has a ways to go to be on the same level as Altidore. I think if we look at the whole season, despite him not being productive always with goals, Altidore still had a large influence in the game from holding up the ball, winning aerial challenges, and his technical ability linking up with Gio (albeit brief in the first half of the season). Also, Altidore has been clutch - something we have yet to see from Larin. From that, I think you're right you don't screw up a good thing. And I'm also in the same boat as you re criticism but personally I thought he has an awesome season and showed what he's really made of.

[Levi Oakey]

I am the opposite of a Larin homer. I questioned him from the start but he is honestly as good as Altidore in my opinion. I am more on board now.

And Larin isn't clutch? Orlando was really bad this year (the fired Heath halfway through the season), and he was their bright spark. Kept them in games and gave them chances. He was the eighth highest scorer in MLS with 14. Teams surrounded him as they realized him and Kaka were the danger men.

Not only that, for TFC he would be amazing. Larin's best skill is his in the box movement. He causes defenders fits. So often when I watch TFC and Giovinco picks up the ball. I just see Altidore staring at him. I think Larin would get so many nice little tap-in's from Gio's work.

Oh yeah, and the kid is 21. 

EDIT: I mentioned the NY RB game, but I think I got that wrong.
MLS Analyst also does a good breakdown: http://www.mlssoccer.com/post/2016/09/23/armchair-analyst-larin-leads-pack-more-radar-week-29

[Gian-Luca]

Nice to see TFC-Montreal getting plugged a lot on tonight's Leaf game telecast by TSN. A couple of promos for the game and it looked like most, if not the entire squad was at the ACC - shots of Giovinco and Chapman standing next to each other in one of the private boxes (with Bono also in shot), then Johnson & Bradly clapping in the stands and then a short interview with Drew Moor dressed in a Leaf sweater in the 2nd period, just before the Leafs 4th goal (with a shot of him celebrating the goal after the interview ended as they had just finished talking to him (in fact the interview was still happening as the play leading to the 4th goal had started).

A shame though that the first leg is on TSN 1 & TSN 3, rather than TSN 4. That will hurt ratings.

[Kent]

9 hours ago, Gian-Luca said:

A shame though that the first leg is on TSN 1 & TSN 3, rather than TSN 4. That will hurt ratings.

Um, what? TSN 1 is the main channel, isn't that were the biggest ratings come from? What is TSN 4? I mean, I know TSN 3, 4, and 5 are some kind of regional channels, and I get the channel, but I don't know what region it is for. I've always been a bit fuzzy on the regional channel designation.

[Blackdude]

35 minutes ago, Kent said:

Um, what? TSN 1 is the main channel, isn't that were the biggest ratings come from? What is TSN 4? I mean, I know TSN 3, 4, and 5 are some kind of regional channels, and I get the channel, but I don't know what region it is for. I've always been a bit fuzzy on the regional channel designation.

Not really, TSN1 is a regional channel like TSN 3,4,5. If you`re someone from Southern Ontario that has basic cable with only one TSN and one Sportsnet channel, you wouldn`t get the game.

TSN1 is BC, Alberta, Yukon

TSN3 is Sasktoba NWT and  maybe Ontario West of Thunder Bay

TSN 4 is Ontario excluding Ottawa region (Maybe Ontario West of Thunder Bay)

TSN 5 is Ottawa region, Quebec and the Maritiemes

So, if you have basic cable (I mean the one where you can`t get 5 TSN and 6 Sportsnet channels with your TV provider), you`re pretty much screwed.

[Gian-Luca]

Blackdude is correct - TSN 4 is the main channel in the Toronto area and most of Ontario, population-wise. I know lots of people in the area who do not have access to the other regional variants like TSN1 or TSN3. That's why I think it will hurt ratings to have it only on those two channels rather than TSN4. Not sure what TSN4 will be showing - presumably a Leaf or Raptor game.

[Kent]

1 hour ago, Blackdude said:

Not really, TSN1 is a regional channel like TSN 3,4,5. If you`re someone from Southern Ontario that has basic cable with only one TSN and one Sportsnet channel, you wouldn`t get the game.

TSN1 is BC, Alberta, Yukon

TSN3 is Sasktoba NWT and  maybe Ontario West of Thunder Bay

TSN 4 is Ontario excluding Ottawa region (Maybe Ontario West of Thunder Bay)

TSN 5 is Ottawa region, Quebec and the Maritiemes

So, if you have basic cable (I mean the one where you can`t get 5 TSN and 6 Sportsnet channels with your TV provider), you`re pretty much screwed.

My mind is blown. Thanks for this Blackdude and Gian-Luca.

[Free kick]

Meanwhile, in Quebec, RDS have move the Tuesday match onto their primary network and are putting Habs vs Ottawa hockey game onto RDS2.  

This highlights what has always the problem with the GTA.  In other Canadian cities additional pro sports teams are welcomed by the local media because the more content and stories, the better. Here its seen as threat. 

[Unnamed Trialist]

16 hours ago, Free kick said:

Meanwhile, in Quebec, RDS have move the Tuesday match onto their primary network and are putting Habs vs Ottawa hockey game onto RDS2.  

This highlights what has always the problem with the GTA.  In other Canadian cities additional pro sports teams are welcomed by the local media because the more content and stories, the better. Here its seen as threat. 

You'd think Toronto area press would welcome a playoff opportunity where it is actually not frowned on for fans to get drunk in the stands and throw things at players.

Sorry, couldn't resist.

[Blackdude]

On 19/11/2016 at 8:57 PM, Free kick said:

Meanwhile, in Quebec, RDS have move the Tuesday match onto their primary network and are putting Habs vs Ottawa hockey game onto RDS2.  

This highlights what has always the problem with the GTA.  In other Canadian cities additional pro sports teams are welcomed by the local media because the more content and stories, the better. Here its seen as threat. 

The problem is that TSN can't put the Leafs on another channel unless they're giving the Leafs game away to Sportsnet. TSN4 is the only TsN channel allowed to show Leafs game. RDS is one of the 3 RDS channels allowed to show Habs games.

Let's be honest, if I had to choose between giving away a Leafs game away or having to put TFC on other regional channels, I think the answer is clear.

 

If TSN could have showed the TFC game on TSN4 and kept the Leafs game at another TSN channel, they would have done that, but they just can't.

[paul-collins]

re Larin vs Altidore:

My few times watching Larin live, I've not been impressed as much as his line suggested I should be.  Of course, most of that is watching the Nats, and I'm sure better service and work around him in Orlando makes him better.

Altidore definitely benefits from his team (and I'm not just saying Gio).

Anyway, the "get rid of Altidore" talk is ridiculous simply because you're not going to get rid of him and easily find a replacement.

Orlando wouldn't swap Larin out anyway, and that's the only Nat option I see.

I am a big fan of Altidore on his current form, and I believe Larin is on that path.  I think it's great that it's even a debate - it shows Kyle is going to be *that guy* for the Nats.  I'd be happy with a swap, any day.

[dyslexic nam]

Get rid of Bradley and Altidore?  After the season they have had (and are having)?

That is where the anti-Americansim moved from theoretically amusing to utterly ridiculous.