Canadian Premier League

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

I would lean towards Bison44's figure of 10 pro quality Canadians being the lower end of what you realistically need if the stated goals of pushing domestic players is actually going to be done. If there was a league like Australia's old ethnic club oriented semi-pro NSL in place as the operation to be replaced by the new fully pro A league type setup it would be a lot more feasible to launch a new pro league.

The problem is that there is no foundation of high standard domestic semi-pro like that to build on, because things have actually moved backwards in that regard since the late 1980s when the old CSL was launched. Leagues like L1O and PLSQ are not much more than amateur and are not even close to what the old NSL type setups used to be back in the 70s and 80s, and there isn't a pro indoor scene similar to what MLS raided to a significant extent to fill out their rosters initially in the mid-1990s.

If there was less rhetoric about launching with rosters filled with the domestic players that MLS is supposedly ignoring, I would be a lot more confident that people are actually interested in making a go of something like this rather than just using it to keep up appearances of an effort being made to launch a league or fulfill a commitment made to pro soccer when stadium funding was obtained for a soccer-related event.

 

 

[SthMelbRed]

If a new domestic league is to succeed, the playing standard has to be sufficiently high that it will draw decent paying gates. If the domestic player quota is set too high, this will handicap the clubs' ability to achieve the necessary standards on the field. To be successful, the new league should start with a minimal quota, coupled with requirements for each club to establish an academy and a schedule for the gradual increase in the quota over a period of time.

I'd say each team should have 20-man first-team squads with a minimum of 7 Canadians in the squad and 3 starting each match. The qoutas could go up by one every second year until it reached the final target of a minimum 14 domestics from a roster of 20 with no minimum starting matches.

[-Hammer-]

2 hours ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

I would lean towards Bison44's figure of 10 pro quality Canadians being the lower end of what you realistically need if the stated goals of pushing domestic players is actually going to be done. If there was a league like Australia's old ethnic club oriented semi-pro NSL in place as the operation to be replaced by the new fully pro A league type setup it would be a lot more feasible to launch a new pro league.

The problem is that there is no foundation of high standard domestic semi-pro like that to build on, because things have actually moved backwards in that regard since the late 1980s when the old CSL was launched. Leagues like L1O and PLSQ are not much more than amateur and are not even close to what the old NSL type setups used to be back in the 70s and 80s, and there isn't a pro indoor scene similar to what MLS raided to a significant extent to fill out their rosters initially in the mid-1990s.

If there was less rhetoric about launching with rosters filled with the domestic players that MLS is supposedly ignoring, I would be a lot more confident that people are actually interested in making a go of something like this rather than just using it to keep up appearances of an effort being made to launch a league or fulfill a commitment made to pro soccer when stadium funding was obtained for a soccer-related event.

 

So let me understand your point here. You are stating that you need 10 quality pro Canadian players to actual push development, and think that the existing semi-pro structure (that we already have and agree is too limited and far too amateur) would be better?

However, we need less rhetoric about filling the teams with Canadians (such as saying a 10 quality pro Canadian player requirement is needed) despite that even if this league were to field 4 Canadians per team, they'd still be fielding more Canadians the MLS is, and we don't really need a pro-league that pays players and is less limited and less amateur.

I'm more with SthMelbRed on this one, although I feel that 3 starters is insufficient, but that's just number mincing. I think 5 starters and one sub on the gameday roster should be to domestic requirement, and expand it to 6 and 2 by year 20, when you should have ample players and be on sound enough financial footing.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

I think, we are not so far apart on this. If they were serious about it, I think the plan would revolve mainly around the best imports that could be brought in on a $1.5 million budget with only a core of Canadian content along the lines of what SthMelbRed is suggesting, so they could get something up and running at launch that may not necessarily be MLS quality, but would not be drastically far from it. There aren't large numbers of genuinely pro level Canadian players being ignored by MLS due to restrictive roster regulations as appears to me to be implied by the CSA and John McGrane as the rationale for a new league. The truth is they either prefer to be in Europe where the really big money is, or aren't good enough.

http://m.kitchenerpost.ca/news-story/6261090-pro-soccer-team-for-city-sees-dome-at-ticat-field-#!

"We want to Canadianize the whole league, not just the players," McGrane told The Spectator before the meeting. "We're looking at a whole culture of executives, managers and so forth. We don't want to import them."

[SthMelbRed]

48 minutes ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

 

http://m.kitchenerpost.ca/news-story/6261090-pro-soccer-team-for-city-sees-dome-at-ticat-field-#!

"We want to Canadianize the whole league, not just the players," McGrane told The Spectator before the meeting. "We're looking at a whole culture of executives, managers and so forth. We don't want to import them."

On that note, it would be great if the league owners agreed that they would each go out and hire the best first team manager and head of youth development that they could attract, regardless of nationality, with the understanding that they'd hire their remaining staff from within the Canadian football community, ensuring that we develop quality coaches, as well as quality players.

[Bison44]

I think we are picking hairs over domestic numbers, 5, 8 10 etc.  The number of teams, money available and player availability will dictate the final numbers, and it prob makes more sense to have a base number and add 1-2 more per year until you get  the CDN content up.   But Blizzard has a good point, the big plus is 8 owners, 8 GM, 8 managers, trainers...those guys need to be mainly CDN as well.  If 20-40 more guys get a chance to play pro soccer and 3-4 CDN managers etc cut their teeth in the CPL, imagine the benefits we'll reap in 5-10 years.  

[mpg_29]

If we are realistic about the quality of the league I think getting the players isn't that big of a deal.  I mean assume each team is required to have half or 10 Canadian players on it's roster.  And if the league starts with 8 teams....that's 80 players.  You mean to tell there isn't enough "quality players" in Canada to fill 80 roster positions?

[Macksam]

5 hours ago, SthMelbRed said:

19 hours ago, mpg_29 said:

 

 

5 hours ago, SthMelbRed said:

 

If a new domestic league is to succeed, the playing standard has to be sufficiently high that it will draw decent paying gates.

I don't get where this is coming from. If a high playing standard was extremely important for drawing a decent crowd like people in this thread are making it out to be, Toronto FC should have drawn only 2000 people after watching that first game against Chivas USA (quite possibly the worst professional soccer I have ever seen in my life to this point) on TV way back in 07, or after that first home game against Kansas City Wizards that same year. We all kept coming back though because we finally had a team again that looked and felt professional, which is key.

On ‎3‎/‎14‎/‎2016 at 2:54 PM, 1996 said:

Watching a sporting event with 3000 people in a 25000 seat stadium will not work been there done that, if you think it will work than ok I can't change your mind, what killed many soccer leagues in North America over the years was playing soccer in big stadiums with small attendances, even 10 000 people in a 30000 seat stadium sucks for atmosphere. I was in Ottawa last year for a family function and was able to catch a Fury game the same weekend. The game I was at had over 5000 people at TD Place a stadium that fits 24000, it was ok but playing in a stadium so big like that and staring at all those empty seats would not get me excited to go back if I lived in Ottawa. However could you imagine 5000 in a small stadium with two grand stands on both side with a capacity of say 6 to 8000 the atmosphere and the look would be so much better and would entice people to come back.  Why do you think the MLS and even CFL have built or building smaller capacity stadiums, because playing in massive stadiums with more than half the stadium empty does nothing to enhance the atmosphere. This has been done before especially here in North America, so unless we are expecting to fill these big 20 t0 30000 seat stadiums in Canada to almost capacity with this new league then yes I have no problem, however 3 to 5000 in a 25000 stadium is not going to be a great look, it's been done many many times and has never worked, starting in smaller stadiums is the way to start in the beginning if this is going to work IMO.

 

Like others have pointed out, one of the big factors to this league being proposed is CFL owners wanting to use their venues for more dates.

People shouldn't be so caught up on teams only averaging 5 to 10 thousand people for this league either. I know the NASL and "second division soccer" wants to be used as a barometer, but that wouldn't fit here as the variables are different. When MLS first started out in giant NFL stadiums, every team in the league averaged 20000 plus in attendance that first season. We have a USL Pro team that draws 20000 people on average. I'm not saying every CPL team will draw 20000 people right off the bat, but the potential is there. It all comes down to what the ownership of those respective markets want. If the ambition is there (like I think it will be in Hamilton,) with regards to heavy promotion in the local market, season ticket sales drive, inexpensive ticket prices, the team not seeming second fiddle to the football team (professional game day atmosphere, no football lines), we can have CPL teams that draw comparable to their CFL counterparts.

In the end, the three main ingredients to success that I will keep coming back to are ambitious/committed ownership groups, heavy promotion and community involvement in the local markets and professionalism when it comes to feel and atmosphere surrounding the club. These are the three things that got Toronto FC off the ground back in 2007. The same formula needs to be used by the CPL owners.

On ‎3‎/‎22‎/‎2016 at 11:46 AM, ted said:

I really wish this was true but this is such a pie-in-the-sky fantasy as to be damaging.  There is no way that sponsors, broadcasters or the general public are going to prefer CanPL games to MLS on a regular basis. Sure they can try and build up all-Canadian rivalries but it will take probably at least a decade before CanPL is seen as anything other than a minor league.

 

MLS is minor league though and does not even register when it comes to TV ratings for the most part. Regardless, ratings will be driven by the markets that are playing. That in itself will probably put it slightly over the edge when compared to an MLS game, which for the most part only features one Canadian team at a time.

 

19 hours ago, mpg_29 said:

 

It will probably get decent ratings compared to some MLS because it's going to be Canadian teams.  But will it also suffer a little from low production values and being played in smaller venues?

Considering the ownership behind this, the production values won't be low and the venues won't be small.

 

[Dub Narcotic]

6 minutes ago, mpg_29 said:

If we are realistic about the quality of the league I think getting the players isn't that big of a deal.  I mean assume each team is required to have half or 10 Canadian players on it's roster.  And if the league starts with 8 teams....that's 80 players.  You mean to tell there isn't enough "quality players" in Canada to fill 80 roster positions?

You can find an infinite number of people in this country willing to play soccer if you pay them. Can you find a lot of people willing to pay money to see those players play? Who would be on an example Hamilton team? Here's my list: Jonathan Lao, Andrea Lomardo, Emeka Ononye, Massimo Mirabelli,  Stefan Vukovic, Daniel Fabrizi, Felipe Vilela, Patrick Myksik (sp?) and maybe Nakajima-Farran or Marcel de Jong as a Canadian DP. If you had some good non-domestic signings that's probably a lower-level USL/high-level NPSL team. That's probably the strongest team I can think of, does that quality of player and lower fill a 25,000 seat stadium and draw ratings on TSN? I guess we'll find out.

[Macksam]

17 minutes ago, Dub Narcotic said:

You can find an infinite number of people in this country willing to play soccer if you pay them. Can you find a lot of people willing to pay money to see those players play? Who would be on an example Hamilton team? Here's my list: Jonathan Lao, Andrea Lomardo, Emeka Ononye, Massimo Mirabelli,  Stefan Vukovic, Daniel Fabrizi, Felipe Vilela, Patrick Myksik (sp?) and maybe Nakajima-Farran or Marcel de Jong as a Canadian DP. If you had some good non-domestic signings that's probably a lower-level USL/high-level NPSL team. That's probably the strongest team I can think of, does that quality of player and lower fill a 25,000 seat stadium and draw ratings on TSN? I guess we'll find out.

Again, it doesn't really matter who the players are.

We managed to find 20000 plus people on a consistent basis who paid money to see the likes of Chris Pozniak, Andy Welsh, Jeff Cunningham, Adam Braz, Todd Dunivant and Andrew Boyens to name a few. Unless you want to tell me these individuals were huge draws.

 

[mpg_29]

If you do some basic math around gross ticket sales using "conservative" numbers. A 6 month season (apprx 26 games) with avg attendance around 4000 and avg ticket price of around $20 that gives about $2,080,000.  So economics might be feasible.

 

[mianjo]

If Montreal,Toronto, Vancouver, Edmonton and Ottawa are not in the CPL, then you are not going to get  average crowds of 4,000 maybe 400, No tv contract.  I dont think anyone is going to pay $20.00 to see University players, non league players etc.

6 month season 26 games mean roughly 1 game per week.  26 games would mean 14 teams playing the other 13 teams twice home and away, not sure how you come up with a 26 game schedule without a balance of home and away games, eg 7 teams playing each other 4 times gives 24 games, 8 teams x 4 games = 28 games, 9 teams x 3 games = 27 games

Sorry cannot ever seeing a CPL working without the 5 main cities

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

That's the problem. If the three major media markets were still available and the Canadian content angle wasn't pushed too hard it might be doable at a break even of 4000, but once you start talking about smaller cities like Regina or Halifax, you are getting a long way away from the Canada that has the most soccer-friendly demographics into areas where it's a sport that kids started to play recreationally about twenty years ago that has never been a big part of the culture in paid spectator attendance terms. Combine that with the rhetoric about Canadian players being the lynchpin of it all and it starts to look like something that certain influential people like to talk about as a possibilitybecause it fits their agendas to have it discussed, but not necessarily something that is just around the corner. If it doesn't look like a sensible investment, chances are the people with the money to make it happen will steer well clear. MLS only survived because a couple of billionaires were willing to sink hundreds of millions of dollars into it for ego and pride reasons until they finally figured out how to make it work. Do we have a Canadian version of that available? Hope so and would love to be proved wrong, but doubt it.

[mpg_29]

1 minute ago, mianjo said:

If Montreal,Toronto, Vancouver, Edmonton and Ottawa are not in the CPL, then you are not going to get  average crowds of 4,000 maybe 400, No tv contract.

6 month season 26 games mean roughly 1 game per week.  26 games would mean 14 teams playing the other 13 teams twice home and away, not sure how you come up with a 26 game schedule without a balance of home and away games, eg 7 teams playing each other 4 times gives 24 games, 8 teams x 4 games = 28 games, 9 teams x 3 games = 27 games

Sorry cannot ever seeing a CPL working without the 5 main cities

I was just throwing out estimates. 8 teams x 4 games against each other seems most realistic (assuming there are 8 teams).

And I agree that it will be difficult with MLS in our 3 biggest cities.  At the very least I think both Ottawa and Edmonton would have to join to make it possible.

4000 avg across the league may be possible if cities like Edmonton, Calgary and Ottawa pulled out decent numbers.  Right now I think Edmonton and Ottawa get between 2500-4000 in NASL.  So a Canadian only league may draw out more. 

 

[SthMelbRed]

2 hours ago, Macksam said:

 

 

You may convince yourself that thousands of people are going to shell out money to watch players that they can watch for free right now while walking the dog. It appears, however, that you are in a very small minority in that belief.

[Macksam]

15 minutes ago, SthMelbRed said:

You may convince yourself that thousands of people are going to shell out money to watch players that they can watch for free right now while walking the dog. It appears, however, that you are in a very small minority in that belief.

I have provided logic, sound reasoning and past history as evidence why I think it can happen shera. You on the other hand just told me I'm in the minority, which is fine.

You know what, I'm just going to pull a Marshawn Lynch and when anyone cites quality of play with gate attendance, I'm going to counter with my three factors for a soccer team to draw well:

- Committed and driven ownership

- Heavy promotion and community involvement

- Professionalism

[GuillermoDelQuarto]

34 minutes ago, Macksam said:

I have provided logic, sound reasoning and past history as evidence why I think it can happen shera. You on the other hand just told me I'm in the minority, which is fine.

You know what, I'm just going to pull a Marshawn Lynch and when anyone cites quality of play with gate attendance, I'm going to counter with my three factors for a soccer team to draw well:

- Committed and driven ownership

- Heavy promotion and community involvement

- Professionalism

It has a lot to do with presentation.  I think this is sorta what you were talking about with professionalism.  If the league is presented like it's mickey mouse people will assume the quality is mickey mouse.  If it looks like the BPL in terms of presentation, people who don't know any better in terms of knowing quality soccer simply won't really know the difference.   Of course, people like us will know, but we aren't the only paying customers.

[baulderdash77]

On 2/20/2016 at 10:22 PM, baulderdash77 said:

Our total player pool is 313 pro players around the world plus 882 CIS players, 128 NCAA players, 288 players in L1O and 126 players in PQSL (maybe double counting some CIS/NCAA with L1O and PQSL)

Of the pro players that we have I figure only about 10% of them would be on a clearly higher salary than the CPL range of 40-100 CAD.  Many are toiling around at a lower level somewhere hoping for a break.

I don't think it will be that hard to find 108 existing domestics to come home and play for us. Plus with 250 graduating college seniors per year if 5% of them move to the CPL then that's 13 players every year.

We do have the talent pool to support a 6-8 team D1 league.

We discussed the player pool to death last month, but it's buried in our 46 page thread.  I think everyone concluded that there's enough player depth for 100 CPL spots if the salary range is going to be $40k to $100k CAD.  

[mianjo]

Right now I think Edmonton and Ottawa get between 2500-4000 in NASL.  So a Canadian only league may draw out more.

 

You might want to check your facts first, Fury's average last year was   5,248, their highest crowd was  9,346 . You are correct about Edmonton their average crowd was  3,083  and their highest crowd was 4,240.

The biggest difference is Ottawa plays in a 25,000 seat stadium whereas Edmonton's is  5,000. Ottawa only uses the south stand but did open up the North stand for the playoffs

[baulderdash77]

Just off the top of my head I can name a bunch of guys that would end up in the CPL that people would pay money to see.  I think the playing level could be quite reasonable to produce attractive soccer.

Anyone in the NASL or USL, Ricketts, Nakajima-Farran, Aleman, Boakai, Simeon Jackson, Haber, Edwini-Bonsu, Hainault, Clarke, Jakovic, Occean, Straith, Hume, Piette, Fisk, Stama.  Plus pretty much all our bench-warming MLS players to be honest.

There's a bunch of our regulars or semi-regular players in that pool.  I'd say most if not all of them could fit into a CPL salary structure and could be convinced to join.

[Futballer]

43 minutes ago, baulderdash77 said:

Just off the top of my head I can name a bunch of guys that would end up in the CPL that people would pay money to see.  I think the playing level could be quite reasonable to produce attractive soccer.

Anyone in the NASL or USL, Ricketts, Nakajima-Farran, Aleman, Boakai, Simeon Jackson, Haber, Edwini-Bonsu, Hainault, Clarke, Jakovic, Occean, Straith, Hume, Piette, Fisk, Stama.  Plus pretty much all our bench-warming MLS players to be honest.

There's a bunch of our regulars or semi-regular players in that pool.  I'd say most if not all of them could fit into a CPL salary structure and could be convinced to join.

From my recollection and knowledge all and every major Agents involve in Professional Soccer will be supporting the Canadian Premier League with Talented players on the League request, We had talks with agents who are very much anticipating our Launch and will assist us with top quality players.

As long as we get the seats filled with supporters, all other revenue stream will be met, Macksam is on target with his Vision, we need more visionaries not pessimist, we have had too many pessimist over the past 30 years including those whom were voted in as our CSA President in the past, while they sit in office and deliberate our game has been rotting to the core, our nation of footballers became discouraged, we see track and field Canada has developed Two world class sprinters with no effort at all, The  Canadian Premier League can and will develop a Super star soccer player before MLS Canada Does, we have these young players here and now waiting for there opportunity. CPL only needs your strong support. 

[Macksam]

4 hours ago, Futballer said:

From my recollection and knowledge all and every major Agents involve in Professional Soccer will be supporting the Canadian Premier League with Talented players on the League request, We had talks with agents who are very much anticipating our Launch and will assist us with top quality players.

As long as we get the seats filled with supporters, all other revenue stream will be met, Macksam is on target with his Vision, we need more visionaries not pessimist, we have had too many pessimist over the past 30 years including those whom were voted in as our CSA President in the past, while they sit in office and deliberate our game has been rotting to the core, our nation of footballers became discouraged, we see track and field Canada has developed Two world class sprinters with no effort at all, The  Canadian Premier League can and will develop a Super star soccer player before MLS Canada Does, we have these young players here and now waiting for there opportunity. CPL only needs your strong support. 

Indeed

7 hours ago, GuillermoDelQuarto said:

It has a lot to do with presentation.  I think this is sorta what you were talking about with professionalism.  If the league is presented like it's mickey mouse people will assume the quality is mickey mouse.  If it looks like the BPL in terms of presentation, people who don't know any better in terms of knowing quality soccer simply won't really know the difference.   Of course, people like us will know, but we aren't the only paying customers.

To add to this point. Even if the minor difference is noticed, it won't deter people from the product.

[nolbertos]

4 hours ago, Futballer said:

From my recollection and knowledge all and every major Agents involve in Professional Soccer will be supporting the Canadian Premier League with Talented players on the League request, We had talks with agents who are very much anticipating our Launch and will assist us with top quality players.

As long as we get the seats filled with supporters, all other revenue stream will be met, Macksam is on target with his Vision, we need more visionaries not pessimist, we have had too many pessimist over the past 30 years including those whom were voted in as our CSA President in the past, while they sit in office and deliberate our game has been rotting to the core, our nation of footballers became discouraged, we see track and field Canada has developed Two world class sprinters with no effort at all, The  Canadian Premier League can and will develop a Super star soccer player before MLS Canada Does, we have these young players here and now waiting for there opportunity. CPL only needs your strong support. 

I'm willing to wager and even say that the MLS academies will form the bulk of the national teams for years to come and the CPL will be mostly a feeder league.  The hypothetical CPL teams don't even have any academies set up, let alone teams.  Academies take time to churn out and all CPL teams will be in year 0 whenever they start.  Plus, the cream of the CIS will probably want to get paid higher than $40K minimum.  I remember that the Caps C team players were barely making ends meet with 25K salaries and even resorted to buying cheap food at Superstore.  As long as MLS and CPL don't collide then we're all good.  Still think the powers that be are making a mistake by not allow the USL teams.  I hope you find owners with deep pockets and willing to take bigger losses that a CPL team in Saskatoon, if you're stubborn to be based in the metro cities of Canada where MLS dominates.

[Pqhbv]

I understand some of the people who are skeptical (it can be good) but a lot of the issues being raised have been dealt with before. Eg the player pool. 

I don't know first hand what the league is going to look like or if it even comes to fruition at all, but the original reporting citing 6-8 teams in CFL stadiums looks to be a good start. From what I understand the only CFL city not in the loop is BC out in Vancouver, and Edmonton is not a sure thing at all, and the Montreal ownership group is also looking into Quebec to start. So that would be: Hamilton, Ottawa, MTL/QUE, Winnipeg, Saskatchewan, Calgary at 6 with Edmonton and Toronto being the next possible markets. 

As far as academies go, they would likely start from the existing D3 structure that exists at present and the youth leagues across the country. London Marconi or the stronger amateur organizations even look ready for supporting a strong academy base below the D3. Granted the Sask & Manitoba (I won't even discuss BC here) seem to be behind at this point in time, their pro teams could possibly start with higher profile Cdn talent in the beginning. 

Its not like the Lynx academy vanished off the face of the earth -they exist and support the blue devils in L1O- or that Larin and Laryea were products of TFC alone. I think comparing what happened to welshmen et. al, at the TFC academy to what sigma has done shows that the MLS route is not the be all and end all for player development in this country. The PLSQ has academies/reserves, Edmonton has an academy, and I'm sure those guys out in Calgary are doing more than just focusing on NCAA imports at their PDL team.

The idea that the USL could be involved is a huge mistake, it would degrade the image of the league from the get go and not bring crowds out. Even though a lot of the talent pool we have now plays there, that doesn't mean we cannot scoop them into another league for a similar salary/opportunity. I'd wager Babouli and Hamilton would have loved to play in front of crowds above several hundred at home. Playing in the CPL would not hinder your chances at being picked up by an MLS team either, TFC would not hesitate to sign a talent developed on a winnipeg CPL team that could potentially bring in TV revenue from out that way. Unless the USSF changes their domestic rule (long shot) a league like the proposed CPL would be the best thing for soccer in Canada full stop. The CPL must be a stand alone league to survive and be successful, and I have faith that the powers at be who are supposedly behind that recognize this.

As for a CIS player wanting higher than 40k minimum to play soccer, I think you've been out of the job market at that age for awhile...

No offence is meant by anything I said, please understand I'm only being critically optimistic as humbly I can.

[SthMelbRed]

2 hours ago, nolbertos said:

 I remember that the Caps C team players were barely making ends meet with 25K salaries and even resorted to buying cheap food at Superstore.  

Is shopping at RC Superstore now considered a sign of poverty?