Canadian Premier League

[Levi Oakey]

I was doing a bit of a background check on Bez. Did you guys know that he helped broker deals between USSF and the CSA in 2013? 

"He also served as a liaison with the US Soccer Federation and the Canadian Soccer Association."

Interesting.

[Ansem]

12 hours ago, Bison44 said:

For Ansem. check Sandors CDN power rankings on Plastic pitch site, they are acurate as far as I can see.  He has 104 total CDN players getting min in USL in 2016, 22 of them on American teams.  11 of the top 25 are on US clubs.  

That's exactly what I was saying. My point was that outside USL Canadian clubs, the spots are very limited elsewhere in USL for our players

[Ansem]

12 hours ago, Jahinho Guerro said:

The league ABSOLUTELY needs another Toronto team. If it doesn't I can't see how this can be considered serious.

I love the fact that TFC is concerned about this, but the reality of the Toronto market, is that its big enough to support two soccer teams, its big enough to have two competing youth academies, its big enough to sustain revenue in dollars....as a TFC fan, Manning can fuck off bout putting TFC III in the league. They missed out on monopolizing the market by not putting TFC II downtown. 

 

So now I hope theres willing owners who will be brave enough to start a project right downtown at Lamport Stadium.

It just show how bad TFC was managed until the last few years. They missed out big time by putting TFC II in Vaughan instead of Lamport or Varsity.

Speaking of Varsity stadium, best non-BMO Field location. Next the touristic rich Yorkville, ROM and with 2 subway lines, millions of Torontonians are around 45 minutes or less away from the stadium. It's an easier trek than BMO Field for Torontonians

[dyslexic nam]

Ansem - please don't take this as a dig, because it totally is intended with good intentions...

I tend not to read a lot of your posts simply due to length.  When I see a post that long, I will do a bit of skimming, but often won't plough through it all.  That doesn't just apply to you, it goes for any really lengthy post - but I notice you tend to have the most... voluminous posts, so you are most frequently the victim of my lazy forum reading habits.  In a thread of 274 pages, I can be a bit selective.

Anywho, don't let me change your style.  I just suspect there may be others who have a similar reading style, and it would be a shame if folks miss some of your more salient points as a result of the length.

Again, not trying to be a dick - just offering a heads up.

[Diamondium]

Just now, dyslexic nam said:

Ansem - please don't take this as a dig, because it totally is intended with good intentions...

I tend not to read a lot of your posts simply due to length.  When I see a post that long, I will do a bit of skimming, but often won't plough through it all.  That doesn't just apply to you, it goes for any really lengthy post - but I notice you tend to have the most... voluminous posts, so you are most frequently the victim of my lazy forum reading habits.  In a thread of 274 pages, I can be a bit selective.

Anywho, don't let me change your style.  I just suspect there may be others who have a similar reading style, and it would be a shame if folks miss some of your more salient points as a result of the length.

Again, not trying to be a dick - just offering a heads up.

To counter this, I welcome a nice long post.

When I see a new post, I get excited, and somewhat disappoitned if it's a short one-sentence post. Give me a nice lengthy post to sink into over the course of a minute or so.

They have really good structure as well rather than just being long blocks of text, which I appreciate.

[Ansem]

4 hours ago, grasshopper1917 said:

Right now TFC has close to the top team in the league and are spending almost 15 million on Bradley, Giovinco and Alitidore yet how many games did they actually sell out last year? Maybe a handful.I think TFC pretty well takes care of the Toronto Soccer Market its not like people are on waiting lists for season tickets. Frankly my feeling is once the big money stars are no longer there attendance will dip south of 20,000 and they will have their own struggles. 

8 years of being the joke of the league has hurt TFC credibility in Toronto. This city will always support winning teams, not losers (except the leafs but 100 years of history makes them an exception, not the rule) and at losing, TFC deserve a medal. Their recent success is just that: RECENT. People are starting to see that MAYBE this team is for real and are starting to get interested in it so I understand their frustration a CPL putting a team right there and capitalize on this city awakening in professional soccer.

That being said, TFC pretty much did that to themselves and they will have to live with those consequences which is a very viable competitor and god forbid that team wins and get the cup...ouch

As for $15M on the 3 DPs, Giovinco is the only one who's worth that salary, just my personal opinion

[theaub]

Hold up

I haven't been very active in this thread, but how in any way is a CPL team in Toronto going to be a viable competitor to TFC?

Or moreso, are we deeming 'viable competitor' as 'is able to compete in conjunction with TFC' or 'takes away parts of the fanbase of TFC.'  Because the latter is crazy talk IMO.

[matty]

4 minutes ago, Ansem said:

Speaking of Varsity stadium, best non-BMO Field location. Next the touristic rich Yorkville, ROM and with 2 subway lines, millions of Torontonians are around 45 minutes or less away from the stadium. It's an easier trek than BMO Field for Torontonians

Varsity is a really bad stadium for this. A side from looking like total shit and having a terrible set up, it's in an extremely loud area. I think a GTA team needs to have an awesome atmosphere and I don't think that could be achieved at Varsity.

I also think York and Lamport are basically no gos as well.

A GTA team would likely be better off going into the burbs to a smaller stadium while keeping the Toronto name. The Toronto team doesn't need to be the blockbuster team in terms of attendance. Having a 4500 seat stadium that's packed every week would be a great experience for fans. I know that 4500 in under the 5000 goal but I'm sure there will be flexibility.

[Ansem]

3 hours ago, dyslexic nam said:

Re the issue of Toronto, I see no reason why CPL wouldn't give it a go.  Sure, MLSE doesn't want them there.  Well no shit.  MLSE is hugely protective of its revenue streams.  

But what should that matter to CPL? With a market of that size, I find it hard to believe that a well run CPL club couldn't get 6000-8000 butts in seats in a competitive Canadian league.  TFC may not like it, but I have yet to hear anyone articulate exactly what they are going to do about it.  And there could very well be a potential owner who may just want a piece of that market, whether TFC like it or not.  

Maybe I am being naive, but if places like Regina and Halifax are realistic possibilities to support a pro footy team, surely the millions of people in Toronto could support a second one.  

That's why for a Toronto team, you need someone with the deepest pockets to be able to:

• rival the marketing machine of TFC
• Put a winner on the pitch
• Get the right location for the right stadium (My preference is an expanded Varsity)
• Experience in International soccer. Most metropolis have multiple soccer clubs in the same city and they all thrive. That owner needs to know what he's doing and it can succeed

[matty]

5 minutes ago, Ansem said:

 

• Get the right location for the right stadium (My preference is an expanded Varsity)

As I just said no to varsity. It would suck there

[Ansem]

13 minutes ago, theaub said:

Hold up

I haven't been very active in this thread, but how in any way is a CPL team in Toronto going to be a viable competitor to TFC?

Or moreso, are we deeming 'viable competitor' as 'is able to compete in conjunction with TFC' or 'takes away parts of the fanbase of TFC.'  Because the latter is crazy talk IMO.

CPL doesn't need 20k fans to break even. Most likely around 6-8k. I doubt the number of fans completely abandoning TFC for CPL will be that great, most likely marginal. The bulk of the fans will go see/support both.

[Ansem]

13 minutes ago, matty said:

Varsity is a really bad stadium for this. A side from looking like total shit and having a terrible set up, it's in an extremely loud area. I think a GTA team needs to have an awesome atmosphere and I don't think that could be achieved at Varsity.

I also think York and Lamport are basically no gos as well.

A GTA team would likely be better off going into the burbs to a smaller stadium while keeping the Toronto name. The Toronto team doesn't need to be the blockbuster team in terms of attendance. Having a 4500 seat stadium that's packed every week would be a great experience for fans. I know that 4500 in under the 5000 goal but I'm sure there will be flexibility.

I think a Toronto team in the suburb would make it a dud. People won't care to travel that far for it. Perhaps having the Halifax approach is preferable until they figure out a preferable spot.

My suggestion?

The Portlands

There's LOTS of land to be redevelop by the city and only half of the Portlands have a definitive plan. A SSS stadium would be a great addition. Right now, accessible by car and bus service but the TTC have plans to bring the streetcar into the Portlands.

 

Long term plans

 

It would be immediately south of the new West Donlands, East Bayfront districts new neighbourhoods and East Harbour that will be Toronto's 2nd business centre in the next decade. A subway station and GO Station will be added as well so it would be a perfect location for a CPL SSS.

 

[theaub]

You would need a hell of a committed owner to be able to buy up enough property there to create a new SSS.  Probably run you $50-75M for the land alone plus stadium construction costs.  No way the city gives up that land at any discount for a sports stadium.

 

[Ansem]

6 minutes ago, theaub said:

You would need a hell of a committed owner to be able to buy up enough property there to create a new SSS.  Probably run you $50-75M for the land alone plus stadium construction costs.  No way the city gives up that land at any discount for a sports stadium.

 

Wouldn't be at a discount but the city is already selling that land with a movie studio expanding in the area and condo developers lining up for land. Saputo Stadium cost $47M to build by the way.

[theaub]

I can't tell from the Wiki article if that $47M includes land.

If you're paying $50M for the land and lets say $20M to build a stadium, that's a very big commitment.  At least the other viable cities will likely either use existing infrastructure or get some government help since it will be a bigger deal to those cities.

[matty]

18 minutes ago, Ansem said:

I think a Toronto team in the suburb would make it a dud. People won't care to travel that far for it. Perhaps having the Halifax approach is preferable until they figure out a preferable spot.

I think it if it's done correctly a team in Mississauga or Brampton could be a success and even some of the pure burbs like Scarborough could also pull it off at this level. The issues facing a more central team go beyond tfc and fans.

[Ansem]

7 minutes ago, theaub said:

I can't tell from the Wiki article if that $47M includes land.

If you're paying $50M for the land and lets say $20M to build a stadium, that's a very big commitment.  At least the other viable cities will likely either use existing infrastructure or get some government help since it will be a bigger deal to those cities.

A market like Toronto usually attracted investors with deeper pockets. Based on potential, it's worth the investment if the team, marketing etc... is done right

[Marc]

Putting aside that a CPL team in Toronto proper is a bit goofy given TFC, Varsity is a great location but the stadium with the track and the open stand and nothing on the ends, is not longer good for a soccer experience.  Plus, residents would flip if a pro team located there.

[Macksam]

15 hours ago, matty said:

http://m.torontosun.com/2017/02/16/tfc-prez-thinks-it-would-be-foolish-for-cpl-to-put-a-team-in-to

headline

TFC prez thinks it would be 'foolish' for CPL to put a team in T.O.

Battle lines are drawn I guess.

14 hours ago, nolbertos said:

I'll ask thr pro-CPL this question, if Toronto can support two teams, why aren't there 2 NHL, CFL, NBA, MLS or MLB teams nowadays?? I'm sure their billionaire owners out there, but nobody has stepped up to plate.  Regarding TFC, the new CPL league has no choice but to play with MLSE.  Look at what happened to the Lynx when MLS came a calling, they wisely lowered themselves to D3 status, and operated it as a charity.  Same situation will happen in Montreal or Vancouver if the CPL wants to compete against MLS.  It'll be a costly war that won't benefit nobody and might do the CPL more harm then good.

Are you serious? 

10 hours ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

If the last bit is a mystery it begs the question of how he is so sure about the first bit.

He's had discussions with league and they told him it's happening.

 

16 minutes ago, matty said:

I think it if it's done correctly a team in Mississauga or Brampton could be a success and even some of the pure burbs like Scarborough could also pull it off at this level. The issues facing a more central team go beyond tfc and fans.

This. GTA west would be a great market for them to go into. It's far for east end individuals but Mississauga/Brampton is a million plus people, and that doesn't even factor in the communities further west like Milton, Burlington and Oakville.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

21 minutes ago, Marc said:

Putting aside that a CPL team in Toronto proper is a bit goofy given TFC, Varsity is a great location but the stadium with the track and the open stand and nothing on the ends, is not longer good for a soccer experience.  Plus, residents would flip if a pro team located there.

Was OK for soccer back in the day, but a portion of the UofT community appears to be dead set against pro sports. Otherwise that could easily have been where the 2007 U20 World Cup stadium would have been built. MLSE first got interested based on that location then backed out due to all the opposition from people at UofT. Think the reality is that there are no easy options in the GTA for a team competing with TFC in a league that expects 8,000 or so spectators per game. Only Lamport really fits the bill as things stand, and is less than ideal and may not even be available.

[Ansem]

1 minute ago, matty said:

I think it if it's done correctly a team in Mississauga or Brampton could be a success and even some of the pure burbs like Scarborough could also pull it off at this level. The issues facing a more central team go beyond tfc and fans.

Oh I believe in a future/near future Peel Region Team, but to call them Toronto would be a mistake. Look at the Chicago Fire. What a missed opportunity. They went in the suburbs and called themselves "Chicago". Imagine if you copied the Cubs vs. White Sox vibe and contrarily to MLB have them play in the same league? That rivalry would be out of control. Look at the London derby, Madrid, Barcelona, Manchester, Liverpool, Milan and Lisbon. Proximity rivalry works and we should chose that approach instead of having a "market approach"

Toronto can definitely support more teams and have it's own derby. The key will be location, marketing, investor's involvement, team quality, management and the scope of the league. With the league saying that 6-8k would make the teams break even I don't see why the following markets that have over a million people wouldn't meet that mark

• Midtown or Danforth on the subway can support a team.
• North York + York Region (1.2M people) from York U or Dowsview Park can support a team. The subway and GO Barrie Line goes to Downsview Park while the Vaughan Subway opens this fall.
• Peel+Halton Regions(Over 1.2M people)
• Portlands (east downtown?) Perhaps

 

• Montreal Downtown? Yes, but Quebec City needs to be there first or at the same time. A Quebec City vs.Montreal rivalry out of McGill Stadium would be a sell out every time.
• Laval? over 400k with subway access? I can see it. A Laval vs. Montreal (Battle of the Islands) would be gold

That's why we have to avoid falling on the trap of using Major North American League logic to what CanPL is trying to do. If 6-8k is enough to break even, then the community/European approach makes way more sense than the Major NA league "Market" approach that requires way more attendance and lots of those teams actually "don't" break even. It also make for more fiercest rivalries.

Breaking even that early in a league's life cycle is truly amazing and with a fraction of MLS investment and operating costs. Then those teams just build on that.

[theaub]

Who are the people solely supporting a second Toronto team?  To have a true rivalry, there needs to be some level of animosity between the two teams and fanbases.  If we take the White Sox/Cubs, its very distinct - south side vs north side, something that's existed for over 100 years.

The general consensus is that the majority of fans of a second Toronto team would still remain TFC fans and support both.  So where is the rivalry?  Are there going to be 2K people in the northeast upper level of BMO signing songs insulting themselves when there's a V's Cup game between the two teams?  Are Toronto II fans going to start calling people who support TFC and not CPL unpatriotic (a tried and tested way of alienating any support for a league)? 

If there are people who willingly give up their TFC fandom to support a Toronto CPL and don't return when TFC makes a deep playoff run, then perhaps there is a chance for a true rivalry to be created.  But I'll believe it when I see it.

As such, the business model for a second Toronto team has to be in conjunction with MLS.  Not working with MLS (as clearly that probably won't happen), but to market yourself as an additional soccer option, not the soccer option.  Whether or not that will be successful remains to be seen.  As I have noted multiple times in here, I doubt it.  It remains far harder than some people are giving credit for to find a committed base of 6-8K people.  TFC has 19K SSH, a fantastic number and yet they rarely sell out the additional 10K seats needed for a sellout.  The appetite for live soccer in this city is still not very high IMO.

[Complete Homer]

2 hours ago, theaub said:

Hold up

I haven't been very active in this thread, but how in any way is a CPL team in Toronto going to be a viable competitor to TFC?

Or moreso, are we deeming 'viable competitor' as 'is able to compete in conjunction with TFC' or 'takes away parts of the fanbase of TFC.'  Because the latter is crazy talk IMO.

Your right, depends how you define competitor

They are going to have to compete for part of the Toronto market share regardless, so even if they stay out of each other's way, they still "compete". I doubt a huge portion of the TFC faithful are going to up and leave, but even buying a CPL scarf or hat likely subtracts from spending that would have been otherwise spent on TFC, so I can understand TFC's protectionist reaction. Most people want to support both, but supporting both still takes dollars out of MLSE's pockets 

If we are talking about a full NASLvsMLS-esque soccer war, I hope not. That will just end badly for everyone, especially CPL

A Goldhar-type owner, if actually real, could compete reasonably in terms of marketing if he chose to, and could make a team with 1.5M capable of at least pushing TFC in the V-Cup while drawing sub 10k crowds. I think that's the best we can hope for. 

[Ansem]

6 minutes ago, theaub said:

Who are the people solely supporting a second Toronto team?  To have a true rivalry, there needs to be some level of animosity between the two teams and fanbases.  If we take the White Sox/Cubs, its very distinct - south side vs north side, something that's existed for over 100 years.

The general consensus is that the majority of fans of a second Toronto team would still remain TFC fans and support both.  So where is the rivalry?  Are there going to be 2K people in the northeast upper level of BMO signing songs insulting themselves when there's a V's Cup game between the two teams?  Are Toronto II fans going to start calling people who support TFC and not CPL unpatriotic (a tried and tested way of alienating any support for a league)? 

If there are people who willingly give up their TFC fandom to support a Toronto CPL and don't return when TFC makes a deep playoff run, then perhaps there is a chance for a true rivalry to be created.  But I'll believe it when I see it.

As such, the business model for a second Toronto team has to be in conjunction with MLS.  Not working with MLS (as clearly that probably won't happen), but to market yourself as an additional soccer option, not the soccer option.  Whether or not that will be successful remains to be seen.  As I have noted multiple times in here, I doubt it.  It remains far harder than some people are giving credit for to find a committed base of 6-8K people.  TFC has 19K SSH, a fantastic number and yet they rarely sell out the additional 10K seats needed for a sellout.  The appetite for live soccer in this city is still not very high IMO.

TFC was terrible for years. That's a stigmata they are still dragging with them even today.

What rivalry? There aren't in the same league, of course people would be supporting both. By rivalry I meant CPL team in the region competing against one another. Hamilton vs Toronto, York (North York vs Midtown) etc...

Again, the abysmal TV rating and average attendance has more to do with the marketing strategy of the teams and MLS than interest in soccer. Joey Saputo admitted being completely absent outside Montreal Island. Why wasn't this addressed early one? Why did it took Drogba to be mainstream? To their defense, MLS doesn't make it easy to get more people interested.

Boston and Montreal have one of the most heated rivalries in all sports and you'd think the league would capitalized on proven models but having the team play from outside Boston and called New England was a terrible idea. Most Montrealers don't know that the Revolution is actually a "satellite" Boston team, hence...no one cares to watch or go to these games.

You can't take easy shortcuts when analyzing what's going on like you're doing. Of course if you start with the premises that MLS and it's teams did everything perfectly and still can't sell out then of course there is cause for concern for CanPL. But MLS and their teams did PLENTY wrongs on the marketing side and there's hope to be optimistic if CanPL don't repeat them

[matty]

@Ansem you're going a bit over board here. Cutting up toronto wouldn't fly, people are going ro resist a new central toronto team, not calling a team in the burbs toronto will cost you advertisers, varsity is shit, it's habs-bruins not montreal-boston (if you mentions red sox remember they're the fucking red sox)

That said gta can work for cpl