theaub Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 The better question is, has there ever been a 'second tier' team that has excelled in this city when a 'first tier' team also exists? And the answer is a resounding no - the only team that's had a modicum of "success" is the Marlies, and they are only in Toronto because MLSE realized its a lot cheaper to drive guys across Lakeshore than fly them to Newfoundland Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rheo Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 North American sports respect boundaries traditionally. Teams moving into a market when it rarely happens always pay a huge price. It's not like European soccer where many teams exist in the same market. The countries are so big and have so many under (or not) served markets it doesn't make sense to oversaturate markets Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matty Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 I wonder what MLSE would view as too close? Think the GTA as a whole would be viewed by them as off-limits? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theaub Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 4 minutes ago, Rheo said: North American sports respect boundaries traditionally. Teams moving into a market when it rarely happens always pay a huge price. It's not like European soccer where many teams exist in the same market. The countries are so big and have so many under (or not) served markets it doesn't make sense to oversaturate markets This is also correct. The last league to actually succeed and not totally crash and burn while going head to head with a more well-known league was the...WHA? And take a quick look at their Wiki page if you want to see how the teams who went H2H in NHL cities fared (not to mention that Bobby Hull certainly isn't walking through that door). I'm somewhat shocked this is a controversial article. The CPL can definitely succeed in this country, but it would also be immensely stupid to try to take any territory from MLS right at the start. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shway Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 I can't say I'm complete pro-CPL, but I'm not against it. I am pro a second team in Toronto though, and one thing I know for sure is that we can't compare is NHL, NBA, or NFL to the MLS. The reality of those leagues is that there way over established, and embedded with history. As old (21yrs) is the MLS, its still fairly young, along with the fact that TFC is still very young as well. Also those leagues (NHL,NBA,NFL are operating off WAYYYYY higher league salaries (meaning revenue is higher to sustain) then the MLS. So to say that another D2 or lower team can't compete with an MLS team is inaccurate considering the fact that the MLS Salary cap hasn't reached 4 million. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rheo Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 9 minutes ago, theaub said: I'm somewhat shocked this is a controversial article. The CPL can definitely succeed in this country, but it would also be immensely stupid to try to take any territory from MLS right at the start. I think the controversy is more on how blunt they were. They shouldn't be threatened by a lower division league yet they are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shway Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 23 minutes ago, matty said: Yes there must be a team in Toronto or the GTA but I feel this needs to be said: Lamport belongs to the Wolfpack now. They're the main tenant and their schedule set-up makes a CPL team sharing it very, very difficult. Lamport belongs to the Wolfpack......Belongs is a strong word, but I understand they are the main tenant. However I feel this needs to be stressed: They play at Lamport (Turf Field) 11 times from May to September on a turf field. Its completely feasible and possible to have another tenant play there, and work with their schedule. It might even make sense that there would be two teams playing there, as it poses an opportunity to share the stadium upgrades costs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matty Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 13 minutes ago, theaub said: This is also correct. The last league to actually succeed and not totally crash and burn while going head to head with a more well-known league was the...WHA? And take a quick look at their Wiki page if you want to see how the teams who went H2H in NHL cities fared (not to mention that Bobby Hull certainly isn't walking through that door). I'm somewhat shocked this is a controversial article. The CPL can definitely succeed in this country, but it would also be immensely stupid to try to take any territory from MLS right at the start. I agree but for image reasons going into the GTA would be a fair move. The league can get away with one market but not several and in that market it needs to act as an alternative not a competitor. I'm actually very pleased that the CPL appears to be avoiding the aggressiveness of the WHA, ABA and XFL. Just now, Jahinho Guerro said: Lamport belongs to the Wolfpack......Belongs is a strong word, but I understand they are the main tenant. However I feel this needs to be stressed: They play at Lamport (Turf Field) 11 times from May to September on a turf field. Its completely feasible and possible to have another tenant play there, and work with their schedule. It might even make sense that there would be two teams playing there, as it poses an opportunity to share the stadium upgrades prices. I think it could be done but the fact they're going to be playing in blocks rather than single weeks will make it very difficult and I don't see them giving up weekends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shway Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 Just a thought, if there can be 2-4 teams in NY, and LA. There definitely can be 2 professional teams in Toronto. The main issue is quality and professionalism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shway Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 3 minutes ago, matty said: I think it could be done but the fact they're going to be playing in blocks rather than single weeks will make it very difficult and I don't see them giving up weekends. They play on Saturdays,....the occasional Sunday game isn't bad. TFC does it...no? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matty Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 39 minutes ago, Jahinho Guerro said: They play on Saturdays,....the occasional Sunday game isn't bad. TFC does it...no? I don't think such little space would give the Wolfpack the ability to meet all the RFL's rules Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shway Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 Just now, matty said: I don't think such little space would give the Wolfpack the ability to meet all the RFL's rules hmmm...what rules? and how would a second Toronto team playing the day after, affect them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matty Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 11 minutes ago, Jahinho Guerro said: hmmm...what rules? and how would a second Toronto team playing the day after, affect them? The RFL has rules in place about scheduling. I might be misunderstanding the rule but it seems you need to be able to handle any changes to the schedule as they come in and not exit the round. eg. TV wants your game on Sunday instead of Saturday, you do it without a fuss. The rule seems fairly fickle btw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
An Observer Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 I thought this was the most interesting quote from Manning: “The league is going to happen.” Manning said. “I actually truly believe that the premise of the league is to provide more opportunities for Canadian players — so I absolutely agree with the premise. How they go about that, I think, is still a bit of a mystery — honestly. Like, who are they bringing into the league?” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackTheBlizzard Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 4 hours ago, Gopherbashi said: Honestly, the most important part of this whole article for me is that there's a CPL official who exists to refuse comment. Not really, when we all know his name and that he posts on here as mlsintoronto. http://www.torontosun.com/2017/02/16/tfc-prez-thinks-it-would-be-foolish-for-cpl-to-put-a-team-in-to “A business model where they’re in some of these other cities like Hamilton and Calgary and Kitchener and these other places, that’s great,” Manning added. “That’s the perfect model. You get that community feel. You could build some good franchises.” Good news for the K/W guys? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackTheBlizzard Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 20 minutes ago, An Observer said: I thought this was the most interesting quote from Manning: “The league is going to happen.” Manning said. “I actually truly believe that the premise of the league is to provide more opportunities for Canadian players — so I absolutely agree with the premise. How they go about that, I think, is still a bit of a mystery — honestly. Like, who are they bringing into the league?” If the last bit is a mystery it begs the question of how he is so sure about the first bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Levi Oakey Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 3 hours ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said: If the last bit is a mystery it begs the question of how he is so sure about the first bit. It's because he didn't get much from Scott Mitchell, at least that he is saying on record. Which makes me think, like the mention of Kitchener, that he honestly doesn't have much of a clue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grasshopper1917 Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 7 hours ago, Jahinho Guerro said: The league ABSOLUTELY needs another Toronto team. If it doesn't I can't see how this can be considered serious. Toronto does not NEED another team. Will it support another team? Not likely. Besides the Maple Leafs Toronto fans have a history of being being fickle. For close to 2 decades Blue Jay games sat 75% empty and the CFL exists but I don't think the hand full of people that go even pay for tickets. Second Tier sports have NEVER been successful in Toronto - EVER. Right now TFC has close to the top team in the league and are spending almost 15 million on Bradley, Giovinco and Alitidore yet how many games did they actually sell out last year? Maybe a handful.I think TFC pretty well takes care of the Toronto Soccer Market its not like people are on waiting lists for season tickets. Frankly my feeling is once the big money stars are no longer there attendance will dip south of 20,000 and they will have their own struggles. That being said with the CFL money financing the league it is hard to imagine them trying to stick a team in Toronto since they have first hand experience trying to get people out to Argo games. When I lived in Toronto they allowed people to sit in the upperbowl with the purchase of a bottle of gatorade. Still the upper bowl would be 90% empty despite free admission for the Argos. CPL should steer clear of Toronto. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Complete Homer Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 7 hours ago, Jahinho Guerro said: 104...I don't even need to check to know thats bullshit. Matter fact the math ain't even right. Check the list, it's correct, he records their minutes each game. But it's not quite what was wrong discussed, it includes those playing on Canadian USL teams Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gopherbashi Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 4 hours ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said: Not really, when we all know his name and that he posts on here as mlsintoronto. He represents "a swathe of the ownership". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackTheBlizzard Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 58 minutes ago, grasshopper1917 said: ...Frankly my feeling is once the big money stars are no longer there attendance will dip south of 20,000 and they will have their own struggles. That being said with the CFL money financing the league it is hard to imagine them trying to stick a team in Toronto since they have first hand experience trying to get people out to Argo games... Doubt it on the first bit as I think they'll simply sign some new big money stars as the playoff run last season will have convinced any skeptics at MLSE HQ as to whether there is money to be made in the MLS post-season. It's only really Giovinco that draws people in right now and he wasn't such a huge star with Juventus. He was more of a fringe player that saw MLS as his way to finally be the main man, which is something he maybe craved for ego reasons. I don't think Altidore and Bradley are much of a factor in box office terms, so TFC have lots of scope to do more down the road on DPs from a merchandise and ticket sales sort of angle. As for the second bit, I don't think we really know that for sure if it is all still a big mystery. Why would the CFL want to help a competing sport that has already arguably eclipsed them in three of their nine markets? Individual owners are clearly interested in the shape of the Hamilton and Ottawa ownership groups as they see which way the wind is blowing, but I seriously doubt that there would ever be a concerted effort by the CFL as a whole to fund pro soccer. Beyond that it is worth bearing in mind that two/thirds of the TFC I/Os are also the Argos ownership, so Bill Manning is effectively speaking on their behalf as well on this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackTheBlizzard Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 22 minutes ago, Gopherbashi said: He represents "a swathe of the ownership". True, which is the "CPL" swathe as Victor Montagliani basically reasserted the CSA's control over the overall process of forming a domestic pro league by reminding people who ultimately does the sanctioning, which I suspect is why the usual suspects on this stuff suddenly went quiet around about the turn of the year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dyslexic nam Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 Re the issue of Toronto, I see no reason why CPL wouldn't give it a go. Sure, MLSE doesn't want them there. Well no shit. MLSE is hugely protective of its revenue streams. But what should that matter to CPL? With a market of that size, I find it hard to believe that a well run CPL club couldn't get 6000-8000 butts in seats in a competitive Canadian league. TFC may not like it, but I have yet to hear anyone articulate exactly what they are going to do about it. And there could very well be a potential owner who may just want a piece of that market, whether TFC like it or not. Maybe I am being naive, but if places like Regina and Halifax are realistic possibilities to support a pro footy team, surely the millions of people in Toronto could support a second one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Complete Homer Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 Checking Larson's twitter is... Interesting. Seems like and Alt-righter at times Overall, I think it's good news that TFC is worried enough to put out an article like this, you don't get worried over fictional threats, but it sounds like TFC is willing to go soccer wars 2.0 over a CPL franchise in Toronto. That's pretty worrying Edit: @dyslexic nam I think a smear campaign via Larson-types could be damaging to a new league. Bob McGowan and the Sportsnet team has done a reasonable job convincing Toronto commuters that the Argos aren't worth their time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matty Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 17 minutes ago, Complete Homer said: Checking Larson's twitter is... Interesting. Seems like and Alt-righter at times All that's missing is dank memes, MDE, swearing and a sense of "LOL I don't care about what I stand for" On that note: Larson pro or anti CPL? I always get a weird semi-neutral vibe when he talks about it. He certainly thinks it'll be shit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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