Canadian Premier League

[Dub Narcotic]

That's pretty cool that TFC can carry a stigmata around with them. Bezbachenko has hidden depths.

[theaub]

4 minutes ago, Ansem said:

TFC was terrible for years. That's a stigmata they are still dragging with them even today.

What rivalry? There aren't in the same league, of course people would be supporting both. By rivalry I meant CPL team in the region competing against one another. Hamilton vs Toronto, York (North York vs Midtown) etc...

Again, the abysmal TV rating and average attendance has more to do with the marketing strategy of the teams and MLS than interest in soccer. Joey Saputo admitted being completely absent outside Montreal Island. Why wasn't this addressed early one? Why did it took Drogba to be mainstream? To their defense, MLS doesn't make it easy to get more people interested.

Boston and Montreal have one of the most heated rivalries in all sports and you'd think the league would capitalized on proven models but having the team play from outside Boston and called New England was a terrible idea. Most Montrealers don't know that the Revolution is actually a "satellite" Boston team, hence...no one cares to watch or go to these games.

You can't take easy shortcuts when analyzing what's going on like you're doing. Of course if you start with the premises that MLS and it's teams did everything perfectly and still can't sell out then of course there is cause for concern for CanPL. But MLS and their teams did PLENTY wrongs on the marketing side and there's hope to be optimistic if CanPL don't repeat them

You directly said in your last post 'Toronto can definitely support more teams and have it's own derby.'  That indicated to me that its two teams in the same city going against each other.  If we're talking a Toronto CPL derby...there's going to be enough issues drawing in one CPL team, nevermind two in the GTA.  I also disagree that Hamilton/Toronto is a true derby in the sense of the word, but that is arguable I guess.

I think you also distinctly overrate the value of marketing when it comes to sports in this city.  There is no marketing.  Fans show up when teams win, period.  The Jays and Raptors tried a million different things to market their teams when they sucked this millenium.  No one cared - no one showed up to watch true superstars Roy Halladay (or Roger Clemens before him) pitch.  No one showed up when you could upgrade your upper bowl seat at the Raptors game to a lower bowl seat for a $10 donation to the MLSE Foundation.  Some people showed up when the Jays offered $2 tickets, but it turned out that was only to get drunk and they had no interest in coming back elsewhere.  Then, all of the sudden the Raptors started winning and now there's a 3,000 person waitlist for season tickets, and the Jays started winning and overnight they went from 8,000 season ticket holders to 25,000.  And I guarantee if the Jays don't make the playoffs this year or Kyle Lowry bolts in the offseason those things will change dramatically going forward

The other thing is, MLSE has completely washed away the stink of 2007-2014 over the past couple of years.  There are some people with long memories (and a lot of them post on this board), but the vast majority of people are overjoyed that MLSE has the highest payroll in the league and are committed to putting a winning product on the field.  The tipping point was when Defoe forced his way out - MLSE could've just bailed and not found a replacement (which would've killed the franchise), but instead they doubled down by getting both Altidore and Giovinco.  Amongst my friends who most would deem as 'Euro-snobs,' that was extremely well received.  And at the exact same time, they will bail out from any association with TFC the second that team struggles again.

But perhaps I am getting mildly sidetracked.  Per the last paragraph, you mention that Toronto FC (I am ignoring Montreal here as I do not live there and thus can't provide the same level of analysis) had plenty of wrongs on the marketing side.  What did TFC do from a marketing perspective that was so egregious that it alienated a large portion of would-be fans?  I will fully agree that they did not win, which was a terrible marketing move.  But in terms of marketing to a specific region/demographic etc, I feel like they have historically done a good job.

[Ansem]

3 minutes ago, matty said:

Cutting up toronto wouldn't fly

I guess LA region and NY regions are failures too

3 minutes ago, matty said:

people are going ro resist a new central toronto team

MLSE? Sure.

Fans? No

Casual and non-fan? Why would they? Either the team/league succeed at making them fans or they just won't care

4 minutes ago, matty said:

not calling a team in the burbs toronto will cost you advertisers

Calling a team Toronto in the suburbs will be a hard sell at the gates, especially a brand new league

5 minutes ago, matty said:

varsity is shit

you and others made their point

6 minutes ago, matty said:

it's habs-bruins not montreal-boston (if you mentions red sox remember they're the fucking red sox)

It transcends sports. Missed opportunity to capitalize on it

[matty]

2 minutes ago, Ansem said:

I guess LA region and NY regions are failures too

MLSE? Sure.

Fans? No

Casual and non-fan? Why would they? Either the team/league succeed at making them fans or they just won't care

Calling a team Toronto in the suburbs will be a hard sell at the gates, especially a brand new league

you and others made their point

It transcends sports. Missed opportunity to capitalize on it

La and nyc are like double or triple the gta's population size. Also nyc is a much larger area wise (i think la is too). Btw the teams still call themselves new york and los angeles teams with the exception of the nets.

Mlse and residents pissed by the influx of people, liter and noise and a construction project

Calling the team toronto in brampton, vaughn or Scarborough would be expected. Remember Markham were gonna use toronto for their hockey team.

Glad to see you're on board here.

Not really. Montreal and Boston both have WAY bigger civic rivals in Toronto, New York and Philadelphia. You can't force a rivalry.

[Ansem]

47 minutes ago, theaub said:

You directly said in your last post 'Toronto can definitely support more teams and have it's own derby.'  That indicated to me that its two teams in the same city going against each other.  If we're talking a Toronto CPL derby...there's going to be enough issues drawing in one CPL team, nevermind two in the GTA.  I also disagree that Hamilton/Toronto is a true derby in the sense of the word, but that is arguable I guess.

A Toronto derby obviously won't happen when the league starts, but if CPL does well and grow, we never know. It's usually investors being confident in a market that steps up to make it happen. How well CPL does will dictate what happens afterwards, then again, a Toronto CPL team might adopt TFC attitude and try to block anyone from starting yet another inner city club.

So Peel and York makes sense due to overall population. Remains to be seen if a potential investor would share that opinion

47 minutes ago, theaub said:

I think you also distinctly overrate the value of marketing when it comes to sports in this city.  There is no marketing.  Fans show up when teams win, period.

No marketing? Seriously? So why do all those major league teams have departments just working on that? Sorry but for soccer in Canada, marketing the right way is vital.

47 minutes ago, theaub said:

The Jays and Raptors tried a million different things to market their teams when they sucked this millenium.  No one cared - no one showed up to watch true superstars Roy Halladay (or Roger Clemens before him) pitch.  No one showed up when you could upgrade your upper bowl seat at the Raptors game to a lower bowl seat for a $10 donation to the MLSE Foundation.  Some people showed up when the Jays offered $2 tickets, but it turned out that was only to get drunk and they had no interest in coming back elsewhere.  Then, all of the sudden the Raptors started winning and now there's a 3,000 person waitlist for season tickets, and the Jays started winning and overnight they went from 8,000 season ticket holders to 25,000.  And I guarantee if the Jays don't make the playoffs this year or Kyle Lowry bolts in the offseason those things will change dramatically going forward

There's a difference when a team actually is trying to win versus when they just want your cash. When Anthopoulous pulled his massive trade, people knew that finally the Jays were in it to win and it got people hooked. Before that, you could just tell that the team wasn't spending with the intention to win. True fan can tell.

Raptors? May I start with the name and the gimmick that made us a laughingstock in that league from the get go? What about all those stars that would rather go anywhere than Toronto? What about the horrible management in front office? Then again, Ujiri arrives and makes the Raptors "cool" with one of the most brilliant piece of marketing in sport I've seen in a very long time

WE THE NORTH!

Yet they still choked in the playoffs but people kept going, there was a buzz, management was competent and dedicated to win, hence the results. Marketing absolutely counts.

47 minutes ago, theaub said:

The other thing is, MLSE has completely washed away the stink of 2007-2014 over the past couple of years.  There are some people with long memories (and a lot of them post on this board), but the vast majority of people are overjoyed that MLSE has the highest payroll in the league and are committed to putting a winning product on the field.  The tipping point was when Defoe forced his way out - MLSE could've just bailed and not found a replacement (which would've killed the franchise), but instead they doubled down by getting both Altidore and Giovinco.  Amongst my friends who most would deem as 'Euro-snobs,' that was extremely well received.  And at the exact same time, they will bail out from any association with TFC the second that team struggles again.

Again, listen to sport radio and analyze what the media is writing about TFC. You're projecting your opinion and fandom on the rest of the city and there's the disconnect. The media was just waiting for TFC to choke instead of truly embracing their playoffs runs. TFC had to prove them wrong every time they advanced in the playoffs. So no, that loser stigmata was very real until the finals against Seattle. Yes TFC has got their act together in management and on the pitch but 1 playoff run won't erase that perception. They need to repeat to prove that last year was not a fluke.

 

47 minutes ago, theaub said:

But perhaps I am getting mildly sidetracked.  Per the last paragraph, you mention that Toronto FC (I am ignoring Montreal here as I do not live there and thus can't provide the same level of analysis) had plenty of wrongs on the marketing side.  What did TFC do from a marketing perspective that was so egregious that it alienated a large portion of would-be fans?  I will fully agree that they did not win, which was a terrible marketing move.  But in terms of marketing to a specific region/demographic etc, I feel like they have historically done a good job.

I take shots more at the league than the team but with regards with what they actually control, the mediocre years not only on the pitch but in management pretty much damaged any legitimate marketing campaign. (Defoe drama, management mess, etc...)

Also the lack of Canadians on the team was a monumental mistake and should have been used to further get people interested in them. If you're going to suck like they did all those years, might as well do so with Canadian talents if you're going to suck regardless. People would have been much more forgiving.

Harsh words, but that my friends is how most of the city think. We're collectively the exception, not the rule. What sells more in a Canadian market playing in an American League a team with lots of Canadians? Just saying... but imagine if all those years of misery would have enabled to develop sound Canadian support players to play with Giovinco instead of all those Americans we preferred?

oh well, who am I kidding. Hoping that's where CanPL will go that TFC didn't

[Ansem]

20 minutes ago, matty said:

La and nyc are like double or triple the gta's population size. Also nyc is a much larger area wise (i think la is too). Btw the teams still call themselves new york and los angeles teams with the exception of the nets.

Calling the team toronto in brampton, vaughn or Scarborough would be expected. Remember Markham were gonna use toronto for their hockey team.

 

But this is a Canadian league, not a North American League. For the other sports, yes Toronto on all the teams in the suburbs is a no brainer otherwise American markets won't care about "Markham" and the TV value drops. But for an all Canadian League, Slapping the name Toronto isn't necessary. Canadians know Mississauga and would be interested to know about York Region, Danforth, Yorkville, Surrey, Laval, etc... than the typical American who can't find England on a map. See the difference?

25 minutes ago, matty said:

Mlse and residents pissed by the influx of people, liter and noise and a construction project

That's why I talked about Downsview Park, Portlands and yes fully aware of the NYMBYism in this city. They make us go crazy in the UrbanToronto forum. There are solution/alternative sites.

[Diamondium]

2 minutes ago, Ansem said:

But this is a Canadian league, not a North American League. For the other sports, yes Toronto on all the teams in the suburbs is a no brainer otherwise American markets won't care about "Markham" and the TV value drops. But for an all Canadian League, Slapping the name Toronto isn't necessary. Canadians know Mississauga and would be interested to know about York Region, Danforth, Yorkville, Surrey, Laval, etc... than the typical American who can't find England on a map. See the difference?

That's why I talked about Downsview Park, Portlands and yes fully aware of the NYMBYism in this city. They make us go crazy in the UrbanToronto forum. There are solution/alternative sites.

I dunno about that part. I think the Toronto name still holds lots of value even in an all-Canadian league. I'd personally much rather tune into Edmonton Vs. Toronto than Edmonton Vs. Mississauga/Markham/York if I didn't know anything about the league. Like yeah, I know Missisuaga is a place that exists near Toronto, but I know a hell of a lot more about Toronto.

[matty]

11 minutes ago, Ansem said:

But this is a Canadian league, not a North American League. For the other sports, yes Toronto on all the teams in the suburbs is a no brainer otherwise American markets won't care about "Markham" and the TV value drops. But for an all Canadian League, Slapping the name Toronto isn't necessary. Canadians know Mississauga and would be interested to know about York Region, Danforth, Yorkville, Surrey, Laval, etc... than the typical American who can't find England on a map. See the difference?

That's why I talked about Downsview Park, Portlands and yes fully aware of the NYMBYism in this city. They make us go crazy in the UrbanToronto forum. There are solution/alternative sites.

I don't think playing markham would appeal to winnipeg as much as toronto. Yes we know the difference and we know when something isn't big city. League needs a big city feel man imho.

I know you said portlands which has several parks, boating clubs, various bike trails, lofts, houses on eastern ave and a nature sanctuary all around it.

Downsview is currently tfc space.

[theaub]

I think we'll agree to disagree on the marketing stuff.  WTN was a fantastic piece of marketing that certainly increased the Raptors hype at the time, but if Lowry bolts to Houston that offseason and they goes back to being a middling .500 team the staying power decreases greatly.  The Jays rebranding going into 2012 was also fantastic, but the true merchandising effects weren't felt until the next offseason when everyone bought up merchandise after the Reyes/Dickey trades.  I will 100% agree that this city does reward teams for putting in the effort - even when the Jays failed in 2006 and 2013, attendance was up across the board since people were willing to pay to watch a team that was putting in a more genuine effort to compete.

TFC definitely had a bad rep before, and there were a lot of anti-TFC references during the playoffs from MSM.  But that's also because a lot of MSM guys aren't big fans of talking about soccer in the first place, and their general fallback of 'haha TFC sucks' worked in duplicate as an actual true story and a shot at the so-called 'changing sports demographics' in the city.  There are some who will forever be afraid that if soccer becomes a true mainstream sport in the city they will no longer be employed.  On the whole the TFC press from the actual TFC beat writers was pretty positive last year.  I also think the Montreal series really changed a lot of the public perception, both because they won and because it was one of the most entertaining games of the sports year.  Unfortunately its tough to quantify the effect of the exact opposite occurring in the finals, but we'll see that play out throughout 2017.

Re: Canadians on TFC - they shot themselves in the foot from the start when they publicly said they wanted to lower the quota, but barely anyone involved from that is still here now.  I don't know if they would have got more leeway from the general public if they brought in some random Canadians.  Nor do I think there were that many to choose from.  They brought in the 'best' one as a DP (failed), the best domestic one (both sides messed it up), and a bunch of others who weren't very good.   Now, there are definitely instances where they brought in some scrub American where there were equivalent Canadians (off the top of my head, every trash backup striker before finding the legend Tosaint Ricketts and there's probably 10 more examples), but then again, how many people outside of this board had even heard of Tosaint before he signed?  

[Ansem]

7 minutes ago, Diamondium said:

I dunno about that part. I think the Toronto name still holds lots of value even in an all-Canadian league. I'd personally much rather tune into Edmonton Vs. Toronto than Edmonton Vs. Mississauga/Markham/York if I didn't know anything about the league. Like yeah, I know Missisuaga is a place that exists near Toronto, but I know a hell of a lot more about Toronto.

 

7 minutes ago, matty said:

I don't think playing markham would appeal to winnipeg as much as toronto. Yes we know the difference and we know when something isn't big city. League needs a big city feel man imho.

I see both your points, I truly do.

All I'm saying is that in CanPL context, selling tickets at the gates will be very important and having a team in Mississauga named Toronto isn't a recipe for success. It's a risks. Sure you're getting people more hyped on TV but can't do that at the expense of you're own fanbase.

The other difference is that sure a "Mississauga" team might not sound as interesting but to the point of skipping your team playing them? I don't know about that. All I'm saying, it's less likely for a Canadian to do that than an American watching some place in Canada he never heard off.

[Diamondium]

7 minutes ago, Ansem said:

 

I see both your points, I truly do.

All I'm saying is that in CanPL context, selling tickets at the gates will be very important and having a team in Mississauga named Toronto isn't a recipe for success. It's a risks. Sure you're getting people more hyped on TV but can't do that at the expense of you're own fanbase.

The other difference is that sure a "Mississauga" team might not sound as interesting but to the point of skipping your team playing them? I don't know about that. All I'm saying, it's less likely for a Canadian to do that than an American watching some place in Canada he never heard off.

It depends on who we are referencing here. If I am a pre-established fan of Edmonton for example, yeah I'd probably watch either way, but if I am just some guy who is flipping through the channels and sees the description on the channel guide for TSN, the Toronto name is more likely to draw me in. It may indeed not have a huge effect, I just wanted to make sure that aspect wasn't being forgotten about.

I will definitely agree that the in-market value of the name is far more complicated than the national value of it. I imagine there would have to be a fair bit of market research done in regards to whether the added benefit of choosing a more local identity and potentially stronger gate revenue for the team outweighs the national/regional benefit of the Toronto name.

I legitimately don't know myself which option would be better as a whole, so I'm just trying to make sure all aspects are being thought of.

[Macksam]

1 hour ago, theaub said:

You directly said in your last post 'Toronto can definitely support more teams and have it's own derby.'  That indicated to me that its two teams in the same city going against each other.  If we're talking a Toronto CPL derby...there's going to be enough issues drawing in one CPL team, nevermind two in the GTA.  I also disagree that Hamilton/Toronto is a true derby in the sense of the word, but that is arguable I guess.

I think you also distinctly overrate the value of marketing when it comes to sports in this city.  There is no marketing.  Fans show up when teams win, period.  The Jays and Raptors tried a million different things to market their teams when they sucked this millenium.  No one cared - no one showed up to watch true superstars Roy Halladay (or Roger Clemens before him) pitch.  No one showed up when you could upgrade your upper bowl seat at the Raptors game to a lower bowl seat for a $10 donation to the MLSE Foundation.  Some people showed up when the Jays offered $2 tickets, but it turned out that was only to get drunk and they had no interest in coming back elsewhere.  Then, all of the sudden the Raptors started winning and now there's a 3,000 person waitlist for season tickets, and the Jays started winning and overnight they went from 8,000 season ticket holders to 25,000.  And I guarantee if the Jays don't make the playoffs this year or Kyle Lowry bolts in the offseason those things will change dramatically going forward

The other thing is, MLSE has completely washed away the stink of 2007-2014 over the past couple of years.  There are some people with long memories (and a lot of them post on this board), but the vast majority of people are overjoyed that MLSE has the highest payroll in the league and are committed to putting a winning product on the field.  The tipping point was when Defoe forced his way out - MLSE could've just bailed and not found a replacement (which would've killed the franchise), but instead they doubled down by getting both Altidore and Giovinco.  Amongst my friends who most would deem as 'Euro-snobs,' that was extremely well received.  And at the exact same time, they will bail out from any association with TFC the second that team struggles again.

But perhaps I am getting mildly sidetracked.  Per the last paragraph, you mention that Toronto FC (I am ignoring Montreal here as I do not live there and thus can't provide the same level of analysis) had plenty of wrongs on the marketing side.  What did TFC do from a marketing perspective that was so egregious that it alienated a large portion of would-be fans?  I will fully agree that they did not win, which was a terrible marketing move.  But in terms of marketing to a specific region/demographic etc, I feel like they have historically done a good job.

I don't think you know your Jays history that well. The revival came in 2011, and that had everything to do with marketing, from the retro rebrand to targeting young professional women. The attendance steadily increased after that and the team only made the post season in 2015, 4 years after the fact. Winning pushed things over the edge in the end but marketing was the main factor for their revival.

When it comes to the Raptors, winning obviously boosts attendance. However, the Raptors have historically always drawn well, even with a losing team, one of the few NBA franchises that can say that. You can thank marketing for that.

[Ansem]

32 minutes ago, theaub said:

TFC definitely had a bad rep before, and there were a lot of anti-TFC references during the playoffs from MSM.  But that's also because a lot of MSM guys aren't big fans of talking about soccer in the first place, and their general fallback of 'haha TFC sucks' worked in duplicate as an actual true story and a shot at the so-called 'changing sports demographics' in the city.  There are some who will forever be afraid that if soccer becomes a true mainstream sport in the city they will no longer be employed.  On the whole the TFC press from the actual TFC beat writers was pretty positive last year.  I also think the Montreal series really changed a lot of the public perception, both because they won and because it was one of the most entertaining games of the sports year.  Unfortunately its tough to quantify the effect of the exact opposite occurring in the finals, but we'll see that play out throughout 2017.

To be fair, there's a reason that MSM wasn't covering TFC that much, the demand wasn't there. Sorry to say the truth but it just wasn't worth writing about based on demand. Everyone always agreed that going to a game was the best experience, but look at the TV ratings and the lackluster performance until last playoff runs. Things should change a bit going forward but I put the emphasis on how much they need to repeat or they will take a step back in public opinion. Hell, even Jeff Blair who loves soccer would talk Bundesliga way more than MLS and TFC, that's a reflection on MLS and TFC, not MSM.

32 minutes ago, theaub said:

but then again, how many people outside of this board had even heard of Tosaint before he signed?  

Do you blame them?

Our National Team are a disgrace, our MLS Clubs forgot they are Canadians. Expecting people to go out of their way to get interested in Canadian International talent when the CSA-USSF leagues-teams-programs has failed most of us, I don't blame them for that.

CSA recognized that prior to Montagliani, the organization was horrendous but find me 1 quote from MLS or the 3 teams acknowledging that they could do better for our national program...you won't...they can't do no wrong

Hence saying that CPL is needed and they have the expectation to do what those above has failed to do for decades

[theaub]

3 minutes ago, Macksam said:

I don't think you know your Jays history that well.

This is likely the most insulting thing anyone has ever said to me tbh

The Jays rebranding also came with a nice 28-ish percent bump in team payroll, and the increase in 2012 attendance mostly concentrated in late June and July, as the Jays remained in contention for the second wild card which did not exist the year before (the Jays were 50-49 in 2012 and 3.5 games out of the playoffs - with the exact same record in 2011 they were 8.5 games back).  As the Jays went into a freefall in August, attendance returned rather quickly back to 2011 levels.  The Jays finished 23rd in the league in attendance, compared to 25th the year before.  Certainly a rather meek revival.  

The increase in 2013 was once again due to a significant payroll increase bolstered by the Marlins/Mets trades, that saw payroll increase by 50% and fly by the $100M mark.  Once again, the Jays were out of contention by mid-July, but as tons of people purchased flex packs for late season games (and the STH base increased from 8,000 to around 13,000), attendance stayed strong across the board.  The Jays did not increase season ticket prices heading into the 2014 season as a token of goodwill to get fans to renew their season tickets, so while attendance dropped in 2014 it still was at 29K per game, although that was back in the lower half of the league.

On July 29, 2015 (Tulo's debut), the Jays were once again averaging a middling 29K fans per game and were 16th in the league in attendance at the time.  Then some stuff happened, and magically they finished 8th, followed by 3rd last year, and are almost guaranteed another top 5 finish this year from season ticket and game pack sales alone.

The rebrand was nice and everyone got cool hats out of it (and apparently really shitty fake jerseys from China but that's another story altogether), but it had zero noticeable impact on attendance.  The Jays marketing to young women was both corporate and sexist (fun fact: you couldn't even customize a women's jersey on JaysShop until 2015).  The Jays spending money, followed by winning, had the impact on attendance.

[matty]

When it comes to the raptors. It was winning plus drake that made them what they are now. Don't forget we the north originated with drake

[theaub]

Drake become the global ambassador at the start of the '13-'14 season.  The Raptors sold out 3 of their first 15 home games.  Then they moved beyond .500 and all of the sudden they started selling out a bunch of games.  Not a coincidence.

To rewind here a bit, and this applies to the Jays as well - I have no doubt both the rebranding and Drake did have an impact on merchandising (although if we're getting super technical here, MLB merchandising is split 30 ways down the middle as part of revenue sharing).  But that is an irrelevant argument to me, since a CPL team in Toronto will not have brand power of the old Jays logo, nor the celebrity power of one of the biggest rappers in the world.   There is no history (there is a non-zero chance that every millenial who cares about the Toronto Blizzard have read this topic).  

Marketing has to drive attendance to the magical 6K point to break even.   So it needs to get there on player quality (likely inferior to TFC so no), ticket pricing (cheap is a necessity), fan experience (I think this is way more difficult than most people think), and nationalism (lol).  And then beyond that which is difficult enough, they need to win, and win often, because to draw out any casual to this team, competitiveness is a necessity.   

[Macksam]

1 hour ago, theaub said:

This is likely the most insulting thing anyone has ever said to me tbh

I'm sorry we haven't encountered each other previously on here. I am a polarizing individual in these parts. 

[matty]

I just wanna make a few quick points about the idea of a Toronto team

1. It's a must because the league needs to look major and Toronto can help with that. The team likely will not be one of the biggest draws in the league but is still key.
2. The name "Toronto" is as important as being in the market because other cities legit have some degree of dislike for Toronto and beating Brampton, Etobicoke, Mississauga, Vaughn or Scarborough will not give them the same satisfaction as beating Toronto. Don't forget Toronto is "the centre of the universe" and "everyone hates it", only Montreal might have equal natural dislike amongst Canadians.
3. The team would likely have to play the culture card to generate the culture needed to interest casual fans (eg. signing Jamaican, Greek or Portuguese players to appeal to those demos)
4. The main city folks won't want another stadium, Varsity sucks, Lamport is off limits it seems and TFC will go to war with them if they get too close. The team will likely be in the burbs and the burbs hate spending money on shit. So this team will likely be using one of the existing stadiums outside of the city centre with expanded seating and a light reno.
5. The team will be blue
Bonus. Aside from being bad locations, Varsity and York belong to universities and if Goldhar is the owner of this team there likely will be student protests against him and the team at every game due to his Israeli links and ownership of Maccabi Tel Aviv aka a contender for the "most racist team in Israel".

[Ansem]

I would expect a deep pockets owner of a Toronto franchise to be able to replicate at the very least what Halifax is doing.

Finding land and build at the very least an Empire Field type of stadium at the beginning.

Also, Manning interview is kind of letting on that CPL are thinking Toronto itself as a landing spot, not suburbs...otherwise he wouldn't be "kind of" freaking out about the idea

[1996]

Keep dreaming with this CPL Toronto stuff, as a Toronto native born and bred TFC is where it's at in terms of pro soccer. This is Toronto we are talking about , not Regina , Edmonton , Calgary and I could go on and on. The Argos who play in a league that is backed by one of Canada's biggest sports network that bombards us with wall to wall Argo and CFL coverage , that plays in a league with all that history and yet struggles to draw fans for what only 8 home dates and who play in an all Canadian league , however, now an upstart soccer league with no name players will be able to make it in the Toronto market who will get next to no mainstream media coverage , please come on. Start a Canadian league if you have to but thinking you can put a team in Toronto and make it work ya ok! Hey are the old Toronto Lynx owners still around maybe they might want to own the new Toronto CPL team, you know the owners who stated that an MLS team in Toronto would draw flies how did that prediction work out for them lol.

[Ansem]

1 minute ago, 1996 said:

Keep dreaming with this CPL Toronto stuff, as a Toronto native born and bred TFC is where it's at in terms of pro soccer. This is Toronto we are talking about , not Regina , Edmonton , Calgary and I could go on and on. The Argos who play in a league that is backed by one of Canada's biggest sports network that bombards us with wall to wall Argo and CFL coverage , that plays in a league with all that history and yet struggles to draw fans for what only 8 home dates and who play in an all Canadian league , however, now an upstart soccer league with no name players will be able to make it in the Toronto market who will get next to no mainstream media coverage , please come on. Start a Canadian league if you have to but thinking you can put a team in Toronto and make it work ya ok! Hey are the old Toronto Lynx owners still around maybe they might want to own the new Toronto CPL team, you know the owners who stated that an MLS team in Toronto would draw flies how did that prediction work out for them lol.

Ok you TFC fan boy.  Quit trolling. 

MLS used to be irrelevant when TFC came along and people embraced it. Why can't the 4th biggest North American city after only Mexico, NYC and Los Angeles can't handle 2 soccer teams?

Oh well...

[1996]

Toronto my friend can support a second pro soccer team but only if it was a second MLS team, just like Toronto could support two NHL teams and even two NBA teams and even two NFL teams , see what I'm doing here , Toronto is North America's 4th largest market we may be a Canadian city but we really are more than just a Canadian city we compared ourselves to the NYC and Chicago and LA not Edmonton , Regina and Moosejaw of the world, that's why leagues like the CFL and this new proposes CPL does not interest us . Like I wrote on here one time , where was the CFL and the Scott Mitchel types when the old CSL was around a league that had teams from coast to coast, how come the good old CFL did not step in and try to save that league, but now when they see the MLS gaining ground and even surpassing the CFL in three of Canada's biggest cities, now they are stepping in to try and establish a Canadian soccer league , give me a break please lol.

[Ansem]

1 minute ago, 1996 said:

Toronto my friend can support a second pro soccer team but only if it was a second MLS team, just like Toronto could support two NHL teams and even two NBA teams and even two NFL teams , see what I'm doing here , Toronto is North America's 4th largest market we may be a Canadian city but we really are more than just a Canadian city we compared ourselves to the NYC and Chicago and LA not Edmonton , Regina and Moosejaw of the world, that's why leagues like the CFL and this new proposes CPL does not interest us . Like I wrote on here one time , where was the CFL and the Scott Mitchel types when the old CSL was around a league that had teams from coast to coast, how come the good old CFL did not step in and try to save that league, but now when they see the MLS gaining ground and even surpassing the CFL in three of Canada's biggest cities, now they are stepping in to try and establish a Canadian soccer league , give me a break please lol.

I like how you project yourself on the rest of the city by using the word "us" 

Get over yourself.

Also, MLS is an American Division 1 league. CPL will be a Canadian Division 1 league. 

[PJSweet]

Just now, 1996 said:

Toronto my friend can support a second pro soccer team but only if it was a second MLS team, just like Toronto could support two NHL teams and even two NBA teams and even two NFL teams , see what I'm doing here , Toronto is North America's 4th largest market we may be a Canadian city but we really are more than just a Canadian city we compared ourselves to the NYC and Chicago and LA not Edmonton , Regina and Moosejaw of the world, that's why leagues like the CFL and this new proposes CPL does not interest us . Like I wrote on here one time , where was the CFL and the Scott Mitchel types when the old CSL was around a league that had teams from coast to coast, how come the good old CFL did not step in and try to save that league, but now when they see the MLS gaining ground and even surpassing the CFL in three of Canada's biggest cities, now they are stepping in to try and establish a Canadian soccer league , give me a break please lol.

Are you a paid TFC operative who has been paid to come here and insinuate this old argument that simply puts me to sleep.

[1996]

Your young go fight the battle and sit in the stands with you and a few hundred people , been there done that for many years, I will instead go take my seat with the other 20 odd thousand at a TFC game I think after supporting every type of pro soccer team and league that has come around these parts I deserve to finally support a team and league that finally feels and looks big time I waited long enough.