Canadian Premier League

[Gopherbashi]

39 minutes ago, dyslexic nam said:

Re the issue of Toronto, I see no reason why CPL wouldn't give it a go.  Sure, MLSE doesn't want them there.  Well no shit.  MLSE is hugely protective of its revenue streams.  

But what should that matter to CPL? With a market of that size, I find it hard to believe that a well run CPL club couldn't get 6000-8000 butts in seats in a competitive Canadian league.  TFC may not like it, but I have yet to hear anyone articulate exactly what they are going to do about it.  And there could very well be a potential owner who may just want a piece of that market, whether TFC like it or not.  

Maybe I am being naive, but if places like Regina and Halifax are realistic possibilities to support a pro footy team, surely the millions of people in Toronto could support a second one.  

If you look at soccer in isolation, then sure, Toronto could support a second team.

But soccer isn't the only sport vying for peoples' attention, and that becomes a problem when you start relying on media coverage and advertising revenue as a source of income and league sustainability.  That's the advantage to places like Regina and Halifax, where - yes, there's minor hockey teams that people hold close to their heart - there's not a lot of competition and it's easier to get publicity.

Toronto currently has 8 pro sports teams - Leafs, Jays, Raptors, Argos, TFC, Marlies (minor league "pro", but they still get 5k in attendance), Rock (lacrosse with next to no coverage, but surprisingly still get 10k in attendance), and the Wolfpack (whose long-term viability I severely question based on travel expenses alone).  CPL would bring that to 9.

Compare to New York (12 teams, including 4 in New Jersey), Chicago (6 teams), and Los Angeles (10 teams), Boston (5 teams), San Francisco (7 teams), and Philadelphia (5 teams).

In terms of population, if we're not already punching above our weight, we're certainly punching at it.  In my mind, that lessens the possibility of finding a gap for a new pro sports team to come along and flourish.

On the other hand, the attendance figures of the Rock and the Marlies are cause for optimism - even with next to no coverage, they're both holding down attendances which would either keep a CPL team afloat (Marlies) or would be considered a smashing success (Rock).

[theaub]

1 hour ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

Doubt it on the first bit as I think they'll simply sign some new big money stars as the playoff run last season will have convinced any skeptics at MLSE HQ as to whether there is money to be made in the MLS post-season. It's only really Giovinco that draws people in right now and he wasn't such a huge star with Juventus. He was more of a fringe player that saw MLS as his way to finally be the main man, which is something he maybe craved for ego reasons. I don't think Altidore and Bradley are much of a factor in box office terms, so TFC have lots of scope to do more down the road on DPs from a merchandise and ticket sales sort of angle

 

Winning is what brings people out.  The fan culture days of 2007-2009 are over - no one comes to watch Giovinco because he's specifically Sebastian Giovinco, they come because he's the best player in the league.  All the stuff about people from Woodbridge flooding down to buy season tickets or massive group packages to watch Giovinco is patently false.  

The second TFC becomes a trash team again, people will leave.  The thing is, they're leaving because the overall quality on the pitch is poor...so I'm not sure how that correlates to them going to support a CPL team.

[theaub]

1 minute ago, Gopherbashi said:

On the other hand, the attendance figures of the Rock and the Marlies are cause for optimism - even with next to no coverage, they're both holding down attendances which would either keep a CPL team afloat (Marlies) or would be considered a smashing success (CPL).

The Rock (*eyebrow*) have a fantastic in-game experience, cheap tickets and most importantly, remain the top level of lacrosse in the city.  And even then, their attendance has dropped about 40% since the glory years.

[Gopherbashi]

Bringing it back to the "usual suspects" and a Toronto CPL team.

 

[An Observer]

My theory is that BBTB is a paid stooge of the MLS to post on here to constantly misinform and try to undermine the possibility of a CPL. 

[matty]

1 minute ago, Gopherbashi said:

Bringing it back to the "usual suspects" and a CPL team.

 

Scarborough would be fucking amazing.

Brampton Kid: Yo this bitch is from Scarberia. Let's laugh at her
Scarborough Kid: You got a pro team in Brampton?
Brampton Kid: No
Scarbrough Kid: Didn't think so. 116 for life WOOP WOOP

[maccaliam]

2 hours ago, grasshopper1917 said:

Toronto does not NEED another team. Will it support another team? Not likely.

Second Tier sports have NEVER been successful in Toronto - EVER.

IMO, a major difference is TFC/MLS isn't one of the world's strongest leagues. Many people already see MLS/TFC as second (or third) tier, yet they have managed to be quite successful, so I'm not sure your points hold true. 

[Tigers]

I'm pretty sure Lamport is managed by MLSE, so probably a no-go even if the schedule did work. I'd think one of the universities would work?

Has anyone been to Lamport for an event with any kind of crowd? I went to a Canada Rugby League game last year with maybe about 100 people, and it was kinda depressing.

[Gopherbashi]

8 minutes ago, An Observer said:

My theory is that BBTB is a paid stooge of the MLS to post on here to constantly misinform and try to undermine the possibility of a CPL. 

Nah, he's just a guy who sees a different way to improve Canadian soccer.

Still really frustrating with the constant pessimism though.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

42 minutes ago, Gopherbashi said:

Bringing it back to the "usual suspects" and a Toronto CPL team.

 

The original North York Rockets already helped to kill off the credibility of one fledgeling Canadian soccer league by playing games at Esther Shiner as nothing about the CSL screamed bush league back in 1987 quite so much as seeing game highlights filmed at a low angle across a running track to a field with a strange mural thing as the backdrop rather bleachers with spectators in it. All because TSN and the CSA couldn't handle the name Toronto Italia or Croatia and blocked entry by groups that more people would have taken seriously because of very intransigent views on both sides over the ethnic name issue.

 

[Shway]

2 hours ago, grasshopper1917 said:

Toronto does not NEED another team. Will it support another team? Not likely.

Besides the Maple Leafs Toronto fans have a history of being being fickle. For close to 2 decades Blue Jay games sat 75% empty and the CFL exists but I don't think the hand full of people that go even pay for tickets. Second Tier sports have NEVER been successful in Toronto - EVER.

Right now TFC has close to the top team in the league and are spending almost 15 million on Bradley, Giovinco and Alitidore yet how many games did they actually sell out last year? Maybe a handful.I think TFC pretty well takes care of the Toronto Soccer Market its not like people are on waiting lists for season tickets. Frankly my feeling is once the big money stars are no longer there attendance will dip south of 20,000 and they will have their own struggles. 

That being said with the CFL money financing the league it is hard to imagine them trying to stick a team in Toronto since they have first hand experience trying to get people out to Argo games. When I lived in Toronto they allowed people to sit in the upperbowl  with the purchase of a bottle of gatorade. Still the upper bowl would be 90% empty despite free admission for the Argos. CPL should steer clear of Toronto.

Your name isn't grasshopper for nothing because you're definitely leaping and jumping.

TFC average attendances

Year	Reg. Season
2007	20,134
2008	20,108
2009	20,344
2010	20,453
2011	20,267
2012	18,681
2013	18,131
2014	22,086
2015	23,451
2016	26,583

Your feeling - is disdain for the city of Toronto, and not based on any facts. TFC has been drawing numbers wellllll before the big three were here. They were brought in as a result of the faithful fan base excepting utter shit and incompetence for years.

Moving on.......

Leafs - real leaf fans have been "fickle", don't be fooled by the corporate dollars & suits who fill the ACC. Perception is everything and going to a leafs game in recent years...."fans" have been hard pressed to find, or simply don't have the dollars to pay for the price of a shit team (although Matthews shows promise for the future)

Blue Jays - while you are right about attendances, but why was nobody showing up???? because they were complete utter shit for the longest time.....Now that they are doing a lot better, the stadium is full more times then empty.

Argos - wellll....the Argos, are the Argos. As a millennial, and I could speak for most - we don't give two shits about CFL football. Knowing that you can go an hour and a half to go watch the "real thing" (NFL in Buffalo) is the reason why the Argos have failed in recent years. They haven't been able to keep up with the times, and attract young fans is the reason why their a dying franchise. And also, I don't know to much people who have actually play competitive football....its either soccer, hockey, and basketball in that order. So go figure why you can get free entrance to a game with a gatorade.

Comparisons between top North American Leagues NEED TO STOP!

And I don't mean MLS, I'm talking about the NHL, NBA etc. It just doesn't make sense at all from an infrastructure, organization, culture and dollars standpoint. 

• Soccer creates thousands more professionals than the top next sport 
• Soccer is the only sport where players can go from youth player to sign professional deals with the same club
• Soccer is the number 1 played sport in North America
• Soccer is the fasting growing sport in North America

There's also some key stats I'm missing, however with all that in mind, in terms of popularity soccer remains out$ide of the NFL, NBA, MLB, and NHL.....but the stats show signs of change coming.

Now will Toronto support another team? Yes they will, because what it will do is create more opportunities for young GTA kids. It's the main reason why Bill is scared. He doesn't want to have to share the massive and wide market of young players in Ontario. Right now in Ontario, if your not in the TFC system, you better hope your in the Sigma academy....outside of that, theres no hope. But how can you justify that TFC isn't turning over every stone, examining every player. For me, there's wayyyyyy to many players who I know, who I have seen who have left the academy system and essentially have no future path to take them further in the game. The second team in Toronto will do that. This team will provide the youth players who were good enough for TFC academy, but didn't make it as a result of a numbers game or were overlooked due to a coach not liking a particular player. This team will be supported because it will be more Toronto, more Canadian then any team in the city. But again, it has to be done right!

 

 

 

[matty]

The question is where would you put a team to get 5-6k and Rollins idea is so lame

 

[theaub]

Bill Manning is scared that a bunch of Academy rejects are going to sink TFC?  Yeah sure...

There's definitely eons of local kids dreaming of choosing an academy of a team that doesn't exist in a league that doesn't exist over TFC's.

[Shway]

5 minutes ago, matty said:

The question is where would you put a team to get 5-6k and Rollins idea is so lame

 

Yea, and I don't agree with calling them Scarborough, Etobicoke, North York etc...it will isolate communities just based on name alone.

Absolutely NO to a Toronto team based in Mississauga. That shit would be tooo far for East Toronto peeps.

It's lamport or nothing...Accessibility for all is everything, and with TFC taking downsview....its Lamport or nothing.

[Shway]

5 minutes ago, theaub said:

Bill Manning is scared that a bunch of Academy rejects are going to sink TFC?  Yeah sure...

There's definitely eons of local kids dreaming of choosing an academy of a team that doesn't exist in a league that doesn't exist over TFC's.

See League 1. 

The direct path to becoming a professional is key. Not to many young players are going to be concerned about the path to a university player anymore. There's way to many options now, and school will always be there. Your opportunity to play professionally is not.

[theaub]

I fully agree with that.

But that doesn't mean there's enough support to make a second Toronto team financially viable.  League1 is great, but League1 also would fold instantly if they tried to have a $1M+ cap per team and had to get equivalent increases in attendance to make their money back.

The optimal tree would be League1 --> CPL --> MLS/Europe, with League1 still having teams operating in the GTA at rather low budgets (but hopefully with improved academy coaching as the CPL expands the level of pro coaching jobs available and makes coaching in this country a viable career path), and then CPL teams in the surrounding areas (Hamilton, K/W, Ottawa etc)

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

1 minute ago, Jahinho Guerro said:

It's lamport or nothing...Accessibility for all is everything, and with TFC taking downsview....its Lamport or nothing.

MLSE have management control over Lamport as they refurbished it as part of the deal that got grass into BMO Field. With the subway expansion the York University stadium would be the best alternative in some ways, but the massive running track makes it terrible for pro soccer as the pitch is very narrow.

https://www.google.com/maps/@43.7748327,-79.5065407,183m/data=!3m1!1e3?hl=en

[Shway]

2 minutes ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

MLSE have management control over Lamport as they refurbished it as part of the deal that got grass into BMO Field. With the subway expansion the York University stadium would be the best alternative in some ways, but the massive running track makes it terrible for pro soccer as the pitch is very narrow.

https://www.google.com/maps/@43.7748327,-79.5065407,183m/data=!3m1!1e3?hl=en

But what does that mean? They could block any future teams? 

 

Hell no to going to York U Stadium, product is everything, and the track would essentially ruin that. Andddd general citizens don't like going to that area of Toronto...if you know what I mean.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

1 minute ago, Jahinho Guerro said:

Andddd general citizens don't like going to that area of Toronto...if you know what I mean.

Always found that more than a little bit ridiculous, but there is that undertone going on for sure. Not sure what MLSE's management control over Lamport means in practice, but I'm sure they could dream up a way to use all the best dates for their USL team if the Wolfpack fold (as they almost certainly will) and there was ever any danger of a rival moving in. It's obvious from Kurt Larson's article that they wouldn't be rolling out a red carpet.

[theaub]

York is probably the best option though.  You already have the infrastructure with ample parking etc, its far enough away from downtown that you can try to draw in the market that are sick of commuting from York Region/upper Etobicoke to BMO and I mean is a track a big deal (SPS has a track and everyone shits themselves about going there).

Trying to go head to head downtown against not only TFC but the Jays is not a smart idea.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

4 minutes ago, theaub said:

York is probably the best option though.  You already have the infrastructure with ample parking etc, its far enough away from downtown that you can try to draw in the market that are sick of commuting from York Region/upper Etobicoke to BMO and I mean is a track a big deal (SPS has a track and everyone shits themselves about going there)

Check out the CSL Nova Scotia Clippers thread for what happens on a narrow field like that in terms of the midfield even when a team with lots of CMNT level talent like the 86ers was involved.

[theaub]

What are the dimensions?  I've never actually been in the new stadium but for some reason I thought the field was CFL dimensions, which would be adequate width wise for soccer.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

Just now, theaub said:

What are the dimensions?  I've never actually been in the new stadium but for some reason I thought the field was CFL dimensions, which would be adequate width wise for soccer.

Follow this link and you'll see how narrow it is between the penalty box and the sideline. Not even sure it would be seen as regulation size for pro level soccer in most countries.

https://www.google.com/maps/@43.7748327,-79.5065407,183m/data=!3m1!1e3?hl=en

[theaub]

I don't even see the new stadium there (I see the old one with the bleachers on one side and it looks like there would some room to expand the field width-wise before getting to the end of the turf).

A very good chance that I'm just not good at reading dimensions from a picture, but this seems pretty soccer field-like to me

http://wmatoronto2020.com/content/uploads/2016/03/pix-pan-am-claus-andersen-1.jpg

[Ansem]

Oh well, the gloves are off boys!

My thoughts on that article:

1-" “foolish” for the so-called Canadian Premier League to unveil a new Toronto team.": Not foolish at all. Actually, absolutely necessary in terms of potential TV Contract and exposure. "Toronto" is known internationally and CPL will need any kid of exposure to expand their brand. A team with the name Toronto helps the league domestically and internationally to expand the brand of the league. It's also essential to draw new fans in other markets to watch the league and it helps having a team like Toronto to hate! That being said, the very angry tone of Manning and the amount of time he dwells on the subject suggests that he's been told that a CPL Toronto team was happening either at start or an expansion.

2-“Why would you want to do that to yourself?” Manning wondered. “Why would you want to come into this market (and compete with Toronto FC)?”: I shouldn't do this but "told you so guys"! It's a competition and the recent moves from MLS was a reaction to CPL and CSA pressure who are supporting that league. That being said, perhaps making Canadians domestics would have avoided all of this... they did that to themselves.

He's more worried about what's going to be done to them rather than what's going to be done to CPL. He's handling this interview very poorly because I'm not sensing confidence, but panic. Joey Saputo was very honest about the state of Montreal Impact and I think it's the same with TFC. Saputo said that the club is popular at a very local level and that they are totally absent in other parts of the city and the rest of the province. In the media, they barely get the same attention as the CFL Alouettes. Same for TFC. Listen to Sportsnet Radio to get the real pulse of the population opinion of MLS and TFC is it's growing, yes but it's not on a level that Manning is trying to sell. Over 8 years of mediocrity will do that. A CPL Team can succeed indeed.

3-“If we don’t have a team in the league, we’ll still be supportive as long as you’re not competing with us,” Manning told the Toronto Sun. “There are some people who feel having a (reserve) team makes the league appear less than they want it to be. To me, I think we could add strength. “There are people who believe we could be good for the league. We’ve shown our cards. We’d like to be in the league. Do you want us in the league or not? We’ll see.”: Don't forget that Manning is first and foremost the MLS "mouthpiece". Toronto has been good to MLS and they have no interest in losing their grip on the Toronto market. I think TFC wants to be in CPL but for the wrong reasons. Reserve teams in CPL would doom that league to be second best and MLS & TFC knows that and are counting on it.

4-“A business model where they’re in some of these other cities like Hamilton and Calgary and Kitchener and these other places, that’s great,” Manning added. “That’s the perfect model. You get that community feel. You could build some good franchises.”: Thank you for pretty much confirming that Toronto, Hamilton, Calgary, Kitchener seems to be in. Also, thanks for validating the point that pro-CPL have been making on this board, that a CPL team in those markets with that model is viable

5-“I told (Mitchell): ‘We’re interested in the league.’ But we’re very protective of Toronto. This is our market. “We want to be supportive of the CPL, but we don’t want to be competitive. That’s something we don’t want to do.”: I beg to differ about Toronto being their market. The sheer incompetence of that team's management is the reason that it took so long for TFC to finally get the attention they should have had years ago. Over 8 years of mediocrity and being the joke of the league hurt the TFC brand. Granted that they have recently steer the ship in the right direction but they haven't earned that monopoly just yet. It's 2 different league, and a CPL team in the city is just as much their market as TFC

6-A second team in Toronto could be seen as a declaration of war against an MLS side that draws big crowds to BMO Field.: So be it but I know a lot of people will support CPL. I don't like the entitlement attitude as it's thanks to the CSA sanctioning that MLS are here in the first place.

7-“The league is going to happen.” Manning said. “I actually truly believe that the premise of the league is to provide more opportunities for Canadian players — so I absolutely agree with the premise. How they go about that, I think, is still a bit of a mystery — honestly. Like, who are they bringing into the league?”: Thanks for confirming that the league is happening. So no more "so call CPL, right BBTB?"

8-“They don’t want to have a team that’s taking guys from playing in League One and all of a sudden paying them, like, $100,000 a year,” Manning explained. “The good thing is that there is an unlimited player pool world wide. The bad thing is that the Canadian player pool (isn’t deep) at the professional level.”: I doubt they are that idiotic. They will most likely go in this order:

• Canadians Internationals in top leagues (D1-D2)
• National Team players
• Canadians Internationals in leagues (D3-D4)
• Canadians in MLS 
• Canadians in NASL
• Canadians in USL
• Canadians in Canada D3

See the trend? Also, the reports of a lower Canadian quota at start makes total sense. You're avoiding saturating the league with lower quality players and with more spots for international players initially, CPL could very well have a level of play above NASL at start.

9-Manning said late last year he’d pondered moving TFC III — the club’s semi-professional reserve team — into the CPL. But that semi-assertion was met with disdain from CPL backers who want Canada’s top flight to be more than a minor league.: TFC III? F*** you Manning and BRAVO CPL.

10-“For a team to come into Toronto and try and compete with TFC, have fun with that.”: Yes it will be fun, already waiting to buy my season tickets, something I never did for TFC.

11-Instead, TFC’s top boss pitched the idea of the CPL being something of a Canadian develop league, where players can be groomed for Canada’s national team and, maybe, MLS.“If they can help develop players that we can look at and eventually go to Hamilton and ask what it would take to get their player, that’s a good thing,” Manning said.: Of course because that's what MLS and TFC wants, the league to be MLS' farm. Not happening and glad to see CPL is showing some backbone. I don't know how any Canadian can support that vision MLS has for Canadian soccer, we're just a farm land of players and money for them, I don't see anything showing they care for Canadian soccer. If anything, this interview heavily highlights how much CPL is needed.

12-“You have to be major league in Toronto,” Manning finished.: You have to be a winner in Toronto. Their biggest fear? A CPL Toronto team being not only successful on the pitch but winning championships before they do. Torontonians will support a winning team, something TFC has started to do only recently.

13-“At some point, in the next five years, we’ll lose to a CPL team,” TFC president Bill Manning said.: You're damn right, and to lose to a Toronto CPL team would just push that team over the edge in term of popularity.

 

In a nutshell, a Toronto CPL team would force TFC to change how they do business. They would no longer be allowed to be the mediocrity they were all those years. They are "doomed" to win...or else. They may be forced to make more Canadians play than they did in the past. Those are some of the reasons why they dislike it so much and there's many more. He handled that interview very poorly and I sensed no confidence but lots of frustration, arrogance and anger. You know you're doing something right when that's how your competitor is reacting...especially after seeing your business model.