Canadian Premier League

[Macksam]

1 hour ago, rob.notenboom said:

They have not being doing particularly well attendance-wise, but their situation is very muddled by an absolute ton of extenuating circumstances, not the least of which is ownership that started with absolutely zero sports management/ownership experience. This is not to throw shade at the the Fath's, only to recognize what they themselves have said ... that they made many mistakes because they were building the plane while flying it. 

They have had some partnerships with clubs where clubs attended, received discounted tickets, and got some financial benefits, but there was initially a ton of animosity between FCE and the greater Edmonton soccer community (it's a long story) so that has really hampered their attendance. However, it sounds like they might be starting to turn the corner as they have already set a season ticket sales record (admittedly it's a low bar) and they had reached that point sometime in December, so things are looking up a bit on that front. Hard to predict for sure, but FCE might end up being the perfect model for CanPL ... a committed ownership group that is willing to stick with it despite the odds and financial losses, learn from their mistakes, and eventually (hopefully) start getting solid crowds. 

That looks like something Hamilton is going to avoid so there's already room for optimism on that front.

[Levi Oakey]

1 hour ago, rob.notenboom said:

If there's one lesson that that CanPL teams better take from the old CSL of the late 80s & early 90s (actually they could take this lesson from almost any startup ever including many of the newer NASL and USL teams) it is don't paper the house. Make the tickets worth something and stick to it. That doesn't mean you can't offer incentives to clubs and groups, etc but the more you devalue your product in the market the more difficult it becomes to get anyone to bother paying for a ticket. After some sit-down interviews and conversations with people who were involved with some of the old CSL teams, some of their financial approaches and results were pretty shocking, and at the core of many of those approaches was the idea that if you could put a lot of butts in seats it would attract more paying customers due to the attraction of the scene/atmosphere. Ultimately, I think that was a failed experiment. 

Interesting. I know that there are a few of us in the GRU that are adamant that we should keep ticket prices low (like around $10) to maintain affordability and because frankly, we are supporters and I want it to be easy to bring people out.

[Macksam]

7 minutes ago, Levi Oakey said:

Interesting. I know that there are a few of us in the GRU that are adamant that we should keep ticket prices low (like around $10) to maintain affordability and because frankly, we are supporters and I want it to be easy to bring people out.

$10 for the end zones and going up to $25 tops. 

[Complete Homer]

There are smart and not so smart ways to paper the house. I agree that you've got to maintain the value of the ticket, but taking a hit in early years to get people to give it a chance is an investment in the future. Say, your kid's enrollment with X city's soccer association comes with a free pass to one game in a family section. It acts as an advertisement to every family involved in soccer in your city by reminding them you exist (partner with the local association and have a flyer/redemption code handed out at registration), maintains the value of the ticket (parents still pay), and gets the "not hardcore but still interested in soccer" a chance to get emotionally attached to a team

28 minutes ago, Levi Oakey said:

Interesting. I know that there are a few of us in the GRU that are adamant that we should keep ticket prices low (like around $10) to maintain affordability and because frankly, we are supporters and I want it to be easy to bring people out.

The idea bounced around the BSB meeting was that looking at the price of a movie ticket (at least for the cheap seats) made sure most people could afford to go on a whim but not so cheap that people perceive the tickets as basically worthless 

That said, assuming total expenses around 3 million per year, using Halifax's numbers (assuming the numbers they quoted are their expected break even), a $25 average ticket price would be what we are looking at. That sort of price point isn't bad, but maybe not quite "go on a whim"  type of money for a lot of families. Will be interesting to see 

Edit: I'm an idiots who momentarily forgot there were other sources of revenue. Maybe the ticket price will be a bit lower, but expenses could also be higher. 

[lazlo_80]

So... TSN locks up rights for MLS.

But CBC trademarks "Soccer night in Canada" and even has it appearing here and their on their website.

So if Soccer night in Canada won't be showing MLS...what will it be showing?

[GuillermoDelQuarto]

1 minute ago, lazlo_80 said:

So... TSN locks up rights for MLS.

But CBC trademarks "Soccer night in Canada" and even has it appearing here and their on their website.

So if Soccer night in Canada won't be showing MLS...what will it be showing?

They're legit 50% trolling 50% teasing us, I swear.  

[Complete Homer]

1 minute ago, lazlo_80 said:

So... TSN locks up rights for MLS.

But CBC trademarks "Soccer night in Canada" and even has it appearing here and their on their website.

So if Soccer night in Canada won't be showing MLS...what will it be showing?

I'm assuming it's a failed bid for MLS rights until proven otherwise...though I would absolutely love CBC to broadcast. Maybe if it's still up a few weeks from now we can speculate 

[Levi Oakey]

15 minutes ago, Complete Homer said:

That said, assuming total expenses around 3 million per year, using Halifax's numbers (assuming the numbers they quoted are their expected break even), a $25 average ticket price would be what we are looking at. That sort of price point isn't bad, but maybe not quite "go on a whim"  type of money for a lot of families. Will be interesting to see 

I know with one of the interviews with Montagliani he mentioned that the league would be looking beyond "bums in seats" for revenue, as they felt that attendance shouldn't be the main source of revenue.

There are European examples of this. In fact, attendance makes up less than 30% of most premier league clubs revenues. Considering how big of a league it is that is understandable. But I believe the same is true for smaller teams as well. Dinamo Zagreb for example makes most of it's money off transfers and asset sales, as well as City of Zagreb donations.

http://www.ijf.hr/upload/files/file/ENG/FISCUS/1.pdf

[Complete Homer]

13 minutes ago, Levi Oakey said:

I know with one of the interviews with Montagliani he mentioned that the league would be looking beyond "bums in seats" for revenue, as they felt that attendance shouldn't be the main source of revenue.

There are European examples of this. In fact, attendance makes up less than 30% of most premier league clubs revenues. Considering how big of a league it is that is understandable. But I believe the same is true for smaller teams as well. Dinamo Zagreb for example makes most of it's money off transfers and asset sales, as well as City of Zagreb donations.

http://www.ijf.hr/upload/files/file/ENG/FISCUS/1.pdf

That's the ideal, but I just don't see a TV deal (if one happens, it'll probably be nearly giving it away), sponsorships (which are only worth as many eyeballs are on them), and other C-SUM revenue (merchandise, cut from national team games, etc) making up much in the short term. Maybe in the long term it can transition away from a ticket-based league if it's successful 

[matty]

3 minutes ago, Complete Homer said:

That's the ideal, but I just don't see a TV deal (if one happens, it'll probably be nearly giving it away), sponsorships (which are only worth as many eyeballs are on them), and other CSUN revenue (merchandise, cut from national team games, etc) making up much in the short term. Maybe in the long term it can transition away from a ticket-based league if it's successful 

With the rumoured money that's being invested here, going at it without any tv deal would be a bad idea.

[Levi Oakey]

Just now, Complete Homer said:

That's the ideal, but I just don't see a TV deal (if one happens, it'll probably be nearly giving it away), sponsorships (which are only worth as many eyeballs are on them), and other CSUN revenue (merchandise, cut from national team games, etc) making up much in the short term. Maybe in the long term it can transition away from a ticket-based league if it's successful 

My thought isn't so much the Merch/TV but player sales, which is the backbone (beyond Dinamo's city funding) of the Croatian league. In the future the hope would be tickets/TV/merch would comprise the other portion, but selling CanPL players to MLS/Europe could bring in some revenue. 

[GuillermoDelQuarto]

/ \Really hope you're right.  I don't see why not.  We have a solid grassroots program after all, just need this stepping stone.  Especially with MLS now purchasing players (Shamit Shome anyone) it's not unreasonable to expect a certain amount of this.  

It's our job to keep the pressure on MLS to continue to find canadian content.  At this point they can afford it, there's no excuse.  

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

I suspect some of the things that are happening with Dinamo Zagreb's finances that are described in that PDF wouldn't even be legal in Canada.

[Levi Oakey]

5 minutes ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

I suspect some of the things that are happening with Dinamo Zagreb's finances that are described in that PDF wouldn't even be legal in Canada.

Yeah, Dinamo is... special. But most people actually think Mamic is stealing most of Dinamo's money, and that they make a lot more. The other clubs are good examples though. Attendances in the 3000s but most of their money is made in player transfers and other asset dealings.

[Complete Homer]

7 minutes ago, Levi Oakey said:

My thought isn't so much the Merch/TV but player sales, which is the backbone (beyond Dinamo's city funding) of the Croatian league. In the future the hope would be tickets/TV/merch would comprise the other portion, but selling CanPL players to MLS/Europe could bring in some revenue. 

Player sales would still be years away though, and uncertain enough to worry about banking on. If there's a fair number of sales 5-10 years from now the league can probably start shaping business around it, but short term at least I don't see it

[matty]

25 minutes ago, Complete Homer said:

Player sales would still be years away though, and uncertain enough to worry about banking on. If there's a fair number of sales 5-10 years from now the league can probably start shaping business around it, but short term at least I don't see it

Was about to say the same. While the boutique schools here are solid it'll still take time for their students to fully develop the skills they've learned to really attract outside buyers

[Blackdude]

1 hour ago, lazlo_80 said:

So... TSN locks up rights for MLS.

But CBC trademarks "Soccer night in Canada" and even has it appearing here and their on their website.

So if Soccer night in Canada won't be showing MLS...what will it be showing?

For the umptieth time. 

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/21-thunder-cbc-soccer-drama-1.3837861

[Blackdude]

Wish I could delete this post

[Blackdude]

Sorry for triple post

[Kent]

1 hour ago, matty said:

With the rumoured money that's being invested here, going at it without any tv deal would be a bad idea.

You do realize that even MLS paid networks to broadcast games in their early days right?

I will be (very pleasantly) shocked if CPL gets any money for TV rights in year 1. If CPL gets a free TV deal I'll still be ecstatic. If CPL has to cover some or all costs for networks putting the games on TV, then I'll still be happy that CPL games are on TV.

[matty]

2 minutes ago, Kent said:

You do realize that even MLS paid networks to broadcast games in their early days right?

I will be (very pleasantly) shocked if CPL gets any money for TV rights in year 1. If CPL gets a free TV deal I'll still be ecstatic. If CPL has to cover some or all costs for networks putting the games on TV, then I'll still be happy that CPL games are on TV.

Yes but tv also boosts what you can charge sponsors and provides you way more exposure than streaming can. I don't think a network will pay them but it'll be mega useful.

[rob.notenboom]

2 hours ago, Macksam said:

That looks like something Hamilton is going to avoid so there's already room for optimism on that front.

Yes totally agree. Looks like the relationship between the TiCats & Hamilton Soccer is pretty solid. 

Can't say the same for most other jurisdictions honestly as everything is deep under the cone of silence. 

[rob.notenboom]

2 hours ago, Levi Oakey said:

Interesting. I know that there are a few of us in the GRU that are adamant that we should keep ticket prices low (like around $10) to maintain affordability and because frankly, we are supporters and I want it to be easy to bring people out.

I've always thought an average of $20/ticket was kind of a necessity. Discounts, group buys, deals, a bit below, prime seats etc a bit above. Agree that that's a bit steeper, but I never seem to be able to go to a movie without spending almost $20/person anyway. 

On a completely different note, I was involved in a cultural festival last summer where a local craft brewery was able to supply our pavilion with a pretty good local beer that was very inexpensive. The profitability was great (I don't remember the exact numbers, but profits were in the $3-$4 per cup range) and it made the pavilion profitable for the first time in years. I think something like that could be a real financial shot in the arm for a startup soccer team. 

[Levi Oakey]

1 minute ago, rob.notenboom said:

I've always thought an average of $20/ticket was kind of a necessity. Discounts, group buys, deals, a bit below, prime seats etc a bit above. Agree that that's a bit steeper, but I never seem to be able to go to a movie without spending almost $20/person anyway. 

On a completely different note, I was involved in a cultural festival last summer where a local craft brewery was able to supply our pavilion with a pretty good local beer that was very inexpensive. The profitability was great (I don't remember the exact numbers, but profits were in the $3-$4 per cup range) and it made the pavilion profitable for the first time in years. I think something like that could be a real financial shot in the arm for a startup soccer team. 

Yeah, our though is get people in the door and then have one of the many many local craft brewers supply beer and take a cut from those sales. Generally just feel there should be better ways to go about it than cost of ticket.

In Europe, something that is rarely done here, they often have big community fundraiser events (bbqs, dances). Not directly related to the club but along the same lines. This helps keep ticket costs down and eventually builds brand assets.

[rob.notenboom]

1 hour ago, Levi Oakey said:

Yeah, our though is get people in the door and then have one of the many many local craft brewers supply beer and take a cut from those sales. Generally just feel there should be better ways to go about it than cost of ticket.

In Europe, something that is rarely done here, they often have big community fundraiser events (bbqs, dances). Not directly related to the club but along the same lines. This helps keep ticket costs down and eventually builds brand assets.

Yes I can definitely see that, but I've got an affinity for both sides of the argument. Part of me thinks that a lower entry price will encourage more attendance and then you can also make a few bucks off those people in food/beverage/merch. But another part of me thinks that you can't do much for $20 anyway and that that might not be that too high of an entry point. On the other hand, I am not a market researcher, so what do I really know?