Canadian Premier League

[ironcub14]

4 minutes ago, Kibby said:

I'm starting to feel OSEG isn't in the loop or onboard re:cpl now.

I don't think that OSEG possibly suggesting a slightly different option suggests that they are not on board.

A project as grand and ambitious as the CPL has to take all scenarios and options into account. Due dilligence is key for any large-scale business plans. 

[matty]

One of the issues with pro/rel in the CPL is that it's likely closer to 30 years from being a thing. You need to find at least 10 markets and owners willing to establish a second tier league (likely 2 leagues if the CPL in conferenced, so at least 16 owners and markets) and build up a strong presence (both locally and with some kind of TV drawing power) to make the idea of a CPL being relegated a not so bad thing.

Finding the markets could be an issue even a decade into the CPL's history. You need to have demand. Here's an article on introducing pro/rel with the A-League. I think Australia is a better representation of what might happen in Canada than the US due to a similar population. If Austalia's pro/rel is introduced and fails or succeeds it could be a good indicator for Canada. http://www.theroar.com.au/2016/09/22/promotion-relegation-league-harm-good/

Now India might be introducing pro/rel in 2022 but that's largely because there are two established first divisions there with fan bases.

[Complete Homer]

I think the CSA needs to come out and say something soon. They wanted to line things up without rumours swirling? Well they certainly are swirling around the Fury, like it or not.

With news that the academy is shutting down for 2017, I'm worried this is more of a "club descending into possible folding" than "transition to a new league" sort of shift.

The fact that this is even a possibility right now demonstrates why pro/rel isn't even close to a possibility, I don't know why it keeps coming up

[ted]

16 hours ago, matty said:

Serious question: How much does everyone here trust Futballer?

That requires a two part answer.

1) Personal honesty and integrity: I have no reason to believe he is anything but honest and trying to do exactly what he says he is doing. I disagree with him (see below) but don't know him personally and have never had any cause to not trust him in that way.

2) Judgement/decision making: having shared with me a draft of their plan I have to say I do not entirely trust his judgement.  The proposal I saw included a national league with 50% Ontario teams that would play double headers in a new, centrally located stadium - ie Teams A & B would play, followed immediately, in the same stadium, in front of the same ticket-holders, by a game between teams C & D. Now that document I saw has probably (hopefully) been consigned to the trash by now but trying to sell that model as a National League was so flawed IMO that it was not possible for me to endorse or participate in the plan.

[Ansem]

It`s possible that the Fury would rather go to USL than stay in NASL any longer. Seems like NASL really is that bad. I doubt it would be permanent as a CPL launch would most likely get them to join.

Let`s not forget that Ottawa Fury in USL can`t happen without the CSA allowing it. USL being sanctioned by the USSF means that Ottawa would have nowhere to go if they refuse to join CPL. I could see CSA allowing them to go to USL until the CPL launches or they could be de-sanctioned by the CSA. 

I don`t think there`s any reason to panic over a move to USL which is most likely temporary. But I wouldn`t want to be in Ottawa`s place right now... NASL vs USL puts them in a very bad spot. They need the CPL pretty badly at this point.

[Viruk42]

6 minutes ago, Ansem said:

I don`t think there`s any reason to panic over a move to USL which is most likely temporary. But I wouldn`t want to be in Ottawa`s place right now... NASL vs USL puts them in a very bad spot. They need the CPL pretty badly at this point.

What benefit to USL is there from Ottawa joining for a year, maybe 2? Also, as pointed out by Rollins and his podcast guests, it doesn't look good on Ottawa to be in three leagues in three years.

Ottawa, and even moreso Edmonton, needs a healthy NASL to stay in until CPL. It's not looking good.

[Complete Homer]

6 minutes ago, Ansem said:

It`s possible that the Fury would rather go to USL than stay in NASL any longer. Seems like NASL really is that bad. I doubt it would be permanent as a CPL launch would most likely get them to join.

Let`s not forget that Ottawa Fury in USL can`t happen without the CSA allowing it. USL being sanctioned by the USSF means that Ottawa would have nowhere to go if they refuse to join CPL. I could see CSA allowing them to go to USL until the CPL launches or they could be de-sanctioned by the CSA. 

I don`t think there`s any reason to panic over a move to USL which is most likely temporary. But I wouldn`t want to be in Ottawa`s place right now... NASL vs USL puts them in a very bad spot. They need the CPL pretty badly at this point.

Shutting down the academy is what has me worried more than anything. That is not a cut you make simply because you are transitioning leagues.

I still don't buy USL for one year. It has a 4 million dollar expansion fee. The speculation earlier was that the USL might be willing to waive it for Ottawa since it would hurt the NASL and NASL collapse= easy D2 sanctioning for USL. If the NASL is collapsing on its own, that motivation to waive is gone, and I doubt Ottawa is going to pay 4 million for one season in the USL if they are so desperate to cut costs that they are shutting down the academy. That sounds a lot more like potentially folding to me

[BrennanFan]

@ironcub14 Re. USL involvement in CPL, consider the following:

The CPL project has been in the works in its present form since 2014, and really even earlier than that, and during this long consultation period the CSA has considered multiple options, including partnering with NASL.  The consultation period is now over.  "Apparently" the hold up was to see if they could launch with the NASL teams.  Toronto has always been seen as a required market, so the fact that recently Montagliani stated they are moving onto the second phase of development, that the rumour of the "billionaire Toronto owner" was leaked, and the fact that suddenly MLSE wants in, all suggest that the blueprint of the league and the ownership groups including Toronto are now set and ready to go forward.

The CSA and the USSF are at odds right now over the MLS domestic quota issue, to the point of the desanctioning threat being made in the Guardian article, so the likelihood of further cooperation between the two bodies is at an all time low.

The rumoured ownership groups that have been secured but have not yet been announced due to confidentiality agreements in the negotiating processes are well above and beyond the level of the USL owners.  We are talking about NHL level deep pocket owners. This on its own should give you an expectation of what kind of league the CSA is aiming for.

Montagliani has stated several times they are planning a MLS based league central ownership model.  This necessitates the league having full control of everything, and not partnering with another league.  Similarly, Vic Mont has stated many times that the league will focus on developing and selling players in order to create revenue for the league itself through the above mentioned central ownership - again this requires having full control of the league and not partnering with other leagues or having MLS affiliate clubs in the league.     

[matty]

6 minutes ago, ted said:

That requires a two part answer.

1) Personal honesty and integrity: I have no reason to believe he is anything but honest and trying to do exactly what he says he is doing. I disagree with him (see below) but don't know him personally and have never had any cause to not trust him in that way.

2) Judgement/decision making: having shared with me a draft of their plan I have to say I do not entirely trust his judgement.  The proposal I saw included a national league with 50% Ontario teams that would play double headers in a new, centrally located stadium - ie Teams A & B would play, followed immediately, in the same stadium, in front of the same ticket-holders, by a game between teams C & D. Now that document I saw has probably (hopefully) been consigned to the trash by now but trying to sell that model as a National League was so flawed IMO that it was not possible for me to endorse or participate in the plan.

1) I do somewhat question some of his claims but feel he could be involved. His story is hard to verify (working on verifying some claims now.

2) I really am confused by some of his claims about the CPL plan. For example he was the CPL would run without a major TV deal but instead make more money of off streaming games and that the league would have a higher cap than MLS. And to be fair 50% Ontario teams does make some sense (even most rumours place 3/8 teams in Ontario)

[Complete Homer]

3 minutes ago, BrennanFan said:

@ironcub14 Re. USL involvement in CPL, consider the following:

The CPL project has been in the works in its present form since 2014, and really even earlier than that, and during this long consultation period the CSA has considered multiple options, including partnering with NASL.  The consultation period is now over.  "Apparently" the hold up was to see if they could launch with the NASL teams.  Toronto has always been seen as a required market, so the fact that recently Montagliani stated they are moving onto the second phase of development, that the rumour of the "billionaire Toronto owner" was leaked, and the fact that suddenly MLSE wants in, all suggest that the blueprint of the league and the ownership groups including Toronto are now set and ready to go forward.

The CSA and the USSF are at odds right now over the MLS domestic quota issue, to the point of the desanctioning threat being made in the Guardian article, so the likelihood of further cooperation between the two bodies is at an all time low.

The rumoured ownership groups that have been secured but have not yet been announced due to confidentiality agreements in the negotiating processes are well above and beyond the level of the USL owners.  We are talking about NHL level deep pocket owners. This on its own should give you an expectation of what kind of league the CSA is aiming for.

Montagliani has stated several times they are planning a MLS based league central ownership model.  This necessitates the league having full control of everything, and not partnering with another league.  Similarly, Vic Mont has stated many times that the league will focus on developing and selling players in order to create revenue for the league itself through the above mentioned central ownership - again this requires having full control of the league and not partnering with other leagues or having MLS affiliate clubs in the league.     

Know anything that could quell worries around Ottawa? It sounded pretty dire on today's Soccer Today! podcast

[Ansem]

6 minutes ago, Complete Homer said:

Shutting down the academy is what has me worried more than anything. That is not a cut you make simply because you are transitioning leagues.

I still don't buy USL for one year. It has a 4 million dollar expansion fee. The speculation earlier was that the USL might be willing to waive it for Ottawa since it would hurt the NASL and NASL collapse= easy D2 sanctioning for USL. If the NASL is collapsing on its own, that motivation to waive is gone, and I doubt Ottawa is going to pay 4 million for one season in the USL if they are so desperate to cut costs that they are shutting down the academy. That sounds a lot more like potentially folding to me

Perhaps we should look at another scenario.

Has it crossed anybody`s mind that the CSA & CPL wants an Ottawa based team but not the Fury owners? I`d rather have the Ottawa Senators owners involved and renting the TD Stadium at this point for the sake of stability.

This whole Fury going to USL is weird and you`re right, looks like they might be folding after all. If that`s the case, I could see CPL looking for other deep pockets to start a team in Ottawa.

[Complete Homer]

1 minute ago, Ansem said:

Perhaps we should look at another scenario.

Has it crossed anybody`s mind that the CSA & CPL wants an Ottawa based team but not the Fury owners? I`d rather have the Ottawa Senators owners involved and renting the TD Stadium at this point for the sake of stability.

This whole Fury going to USL is weird and you`re right, looks like they might be folding after all. If that`s the case, I could see CPL looking for other deep pockets to start a team in Ottawa.

Was there not chatter that OSEG was involved in the CPL discussions from the beginning? Way back when the talk was around CFL team owners getting the ball rolling

[Viruk42]

2 minutes ago, Ansem said:

Perhaps we should look at another scenario.

Has it crossed anybody`s mind that the CSA & CPL wants an Ottawa based team but not the Fury owners? I`d rather have the Ottawa Senators owners involved and renting the TD Stadium at this point for the sake of stability.

This whole Fury going to USL is weird and you`re right, looks like they might be folding after all. If that`s the case, I could see CPL looking for other deep pockets to start a team in Ottawa.

Good luck with that. Melnyk has had money problems for years and doesn't have a stadium - plus, if he did, it would be more likely out in Kanata, so say goodbye to half the fanbase. 

[Ansem]

1 minute ago, Complete Homer said:

Was there not chatter that OSEG was involved in the CPL discussions from the beginning? Way back when the talk was around CFL team owners getting the ball rolling

Yes, and that seems to have changed too. Now it's the Thomson and the Winnipeg Jets instead of the Winnipeg Blue Bombers. I`d rather have the richest family in Canada then the CFL ownership.

Same could have been happening with Ottawa. The league controls everything and it has a right to hand pick it`s owner...(NHL vs Balsillie made that crystal clear)

If the Ottawa Senators group wanted in, who would you pick?

For me, that`s not even up for the debate, I`d go with the Senators Ownership group in a heartbeat

[matty]

6 minutes ago, Complete Homer said:

Was there not chatter that OSEG was involved in the CPL discussions from the beginning? Way back when the talk was around CFL team owners getting the ball rolling

There's been talk of the Fury since back when this was NASL Canada but rumours of non-CFL ownership have become stronger. But on the " another scenario" note, is it possible they're going to be taking a year hiatus and rebranding the club totally with an ownership change?

[Viruk42]

1 minute ago, Ansem said:

If the Ottawa Senators group wanted in, who would you pick?

For me, that`s not even up for the debate, I`d go with the Senators Ownership group in a heartbeat

I was born in Ottawa in 1986 and have lived here my whole life. Would I choose the Sens ownership? Fuck no. 

[Complete Homer]

2 minutes ago, matty said:

There's been talk of the Fury since back when this was NASL Canada. But on the " another scenario" note, is it possible they're going to be taking a year hiatus and rebranding the club totally?

That still doesn't really explain shutting down the academy. I've been pretty optimistic up to this point, but I have a hard time taking that as anything but ominous news

 

As for the Sens swooping in? I imagine it is possible but I'm not going to try to convince myself that this is actually good without any evidence.

[matty]

1 minute ago, Complete Homer said:

That still doesn't really explain shutting down the academy. I've been pretty optimistic up to this point, but I have a hard time taking that as anything but ominous news

On the note of maybe a new owner/rebrand, a new owner might not view it as a strong enough tool and feels the money would be better used on partnerships with different nearby academies. I'm reaching here but maaaaaaaaaaaybe \/(*_*)\/

[Ansem]

13 minutes ago, Viruk42 said:

Good luck with that. Melnyk has had money problems for years and doesn't have a stadium - plus, if he did, it would be more likely out in Kanata, so say goodbye to half the fanbase. 

LeBreton Flats project from Melnyk

http://www.ottawasun.com/2016/04/28/senators-owner-thrilled-with-lebreton-flats-decision

The Senators have always believed the road to future success involved the construction of a downtown arena and the decision by the NCC paved the way for that to become reality as the club’s $3.5 billion bid to build at LeBreton got the green light, with a hope they’ll be able to hold Opening Night in October 2021.

 

The Senators ownership has deep pockets but the arena being located in Kanata was horrible for business. The new location is exactly what they needed and he even picked up the tab to cover the new LRT station at that location which was a factor that gave them the edge.

Also, if he would start a CPL team, they could either

• Rent TD stadium
• Build a soccer specific venue if they choose too, around LeBreton flats next to the new arena?

Were just speculating but hypothetically, I would prefer the Senators ownership over the CFL ownership. If there was remotely any interest expressed from the NHL group, I could see the CPL & CSA going their way.

And hey, the Fury can always be sold to a new owner in Ottawa or to a US group, hence Ottawa CPL team starting from scratch

[BrennanFan]

7 minutes ago, Ansem said:

Perhaps we should look at another scenario.

Has it crossed anybody`s mind that the CSA & CPL wants an Ottawa based team but not the Fury owners? I`d rather have the Ottawa Senators owners involved and renting the TD Stadium at this point for the sake of stability.

This whole Fury going to USL is weird and you`re right, looks like they might be folding after all. If that`s the case, I could see CPL looking for other deep pockets to start a team in Ottawa.

YES.  I heard that Ottawa is in, I don't know if that means the Fury as is, OSEG building a new team, or new ownership altogether.  

However, the fact that FuryFanatic on twitter, who is obviously close to the ownership of the Fury, has called the CPL a myth really unsettles me.

I feel like there is a lot of BS being thrown around along with real news.  Whether its to prevent sabotage from Futballer's group or from the MLS, or to bluff owners into signing up, who knows.  Recall, we are dealing with the same CSA that years ago received a KPMG report that told them a pro league was not viable in Canada, and then the CSA nevertheless set up the CUSL project that was doomed from the beginning but still would release BS like this into the media:

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/soccer/canada-plans-for-professional-soccer-league-1.287842

So who knows how close we really are.    

[Complete Homer]

3 minutes ago, BrennanFan said:

YES.  I heard that Ottawa is in, I don't know if that means the Fury as is, OSEG building a new team, or new ownership altogether.  

However, the fact that FuryFanatic on twitter, who is obviously close to the ownership of the Fury, has called the CPL a myth really unsettles me.

I feel like there is a lot of BS being thrown around along with real news.  Whether its to prevent sabotage from Futballer's group or from the MLS, or to bluff owners into signing up, who knows.  Recall, we are dealing with the same CSA that years ago received a KPMG report that told them a pro league was not viable in Canada, and then the CSA nevertheless set up the CUSL project that was doomed from the beginning but still would release BS like this into the media:

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/soccer/canada-plans-for-professional-soccer-league-1.287842

So who knows how close we really are.    

FuryFanatic got called out for reporting nonsense, hasn't he?

[Ansem]

6 minutes ago, BrennanFan said:

YES.  I heard that Ottawa is in, I don't know if that means the Fury as is, OSEG building a new team, or new ownership altogether.  

However, the fact that FuryFanatic on twitter, who is obviously close to the ownership of the Fury, has called the CPL a myth really unsettles me.

I feel like there is a lot of BS being thrown around along with real news.  Whether its to prevent sabotage from Futballer's group or from the MLS, or to bluff owners into signing up, who knows.  Recall, we are dealing with the same CSA that years ago received a KPMG report that told them a pro league was not viable in Canada, and then the CSA nevertheless set up the CUSL project that was doomed from the beginning but still would release BS like this into the media:

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/soccer/canada-plans-for-professional-soccer-league-1.287842

So who knows how close we really are.    

We can`t call CPL a myth anymore, MLSE meeting the CSA and MLS talking about it are clues that it`s legit.

If anything, the myth was perhaps the Fury being part of it.

[Viruk42]

1 minute ago, Ansem said:

The Senators ownership has deep pockets but the arena being located in Kanata was horrible for business. The new location is exactly what they needed.

Also, if he would start a CPL team, they could either

• Rent TD stadium
• Build a soccer specific venue if they choose too

His deep pockets have taken a great many hits in recent years. First off, the Sens, in part due to their location, are not the most profitable team (they lose something around 10mil per year). Second, his pharmaceutical company, previously named Trimel but recently changed to Acerus, hasn't reported a profit in the last 5 years. As part of that, Melnyk is no longer a billionaire, more likely having hundreds of millions, though it's uncertain because he also recently got divorced.

The whole LeBreton Flats plan includes him, of course, but it's not like he's reaching into his pockets to pay for it. For one thing, there's a number of developers involved in his bid, all of whom also are contributing money to the project, but more likely they'll all be taking out loans in order to pay up front with the expectation that they'll then be able to make the money back selling condos and the like. 

Furthermore, Melnyk likes to meddle and is a terrible owner. If you've followed the Sens at all, you'll know they've had numerous coaches (since he bought the team in 2003, they've had 7 different coaches, only one of whom has been given 3 full seasons), he's been extremely cheap for years (their star player, Erik Karlsson, called them a 'budget team' last year), he's not exactly a great person (he attacked the previous coaching staff for playing a young goalie at the start of the year, which obviously must make that goalie feel welcome in Ottawa), nor is he particularly stable (anyone remember when he started a "forensic investigation" into whether or not Matt Cooke intentionally cut Karlsson's achilles?). 

As for the stadium, TD place has a deal with OSEG, I can't see them being particularly happy if Melnyk gets to boot them out (especially when the other two teams that play there, the 67s and the RedBlacks, are also OSEG teams), and there's no room in the Lebreton Flats plan for a 2nd stadium - the arena won't even be ready for another 6+ years anyway.

So in summary: Melnyk is a terrible owner who isn't as wealthy as you might think and I don't want him anywhere near Ottawa's professional soccer.

[Ansem]

26 minutes ago, Viruk42 said:

I was born in Ottawa in 1986 and have lived here my whole life. Would I choose the Sens ownership? Fuck no. 

They`ve had more results on the ice with a bad located arena and less resources than the Toronto Maple Leafs with the bottomless money from MLSE.

At least we know they know how to manage a pro team. They just need to hire soccer people.

[Macksam]

24 minutes ago, Ansem said:

LeBreton Flats project from Melnyk

http://www.ottawasun.com/2016/04/28/senators-owner-thrilled-with-lebreton-flats-decision

The Senators have always believed the road to future success involved the construction of a downtown arena and the decision by the NCC paved the way for that to become reality as the club’s $3.5 billion bid to build at LeBreton got the green light, with a hope they’ll be able to hold Opening Night in October 2021.

 

The Senators ownership has deep pockets but the arena being located in Kanata was horrible for business. The new location is exactly what they needed and he even picked up the tab to cover the new LRT station at that location which was a factor that gave them the edge.

Also, if he would start a CPL team, they could either

• Rent TD stadium
• Build a soccer specific venue if they choose too, around LeBreton flats next to the new arena?

Were just speculating but hypothetically, I would prefer the Senators ownership over the CFL ownership. If there was remotely any interest expressed from the NHL group, I could see the CPL & CSA going their way.

And hey, the Fury can always be sold to a new owner in Ottawa or to a US group, hence Ottawa CPL team starting from scratch

Ottawa's MLS bid back in 09 revolved around building a stadium and entertainment complex next to the hockey arena in Kanata with the main objective being to turn the whole area into party area. However, now that he wants to head to LeBreton Flats, he might consider the idea to build a soccer stadium there. However, I doubt it. The MLS bid was centered around developing the Kanata area and solidifying the Senators position there. That obviously wouldn't be required in LeBreton Flats.