Garber hints at change to 'Canadians as internationals' rule.

[narduch]

Thanks for that post Copes.

[ted]

Hamilton is close enough to Toronto to be consider in same market.  TFC has huge chunk of fans coming from west end including Hamilton.  Also, don't forget if there's another stadium built in GTA (there's interest out there), then don't be surprised to see "Toronto" team in Canadian NASL league.  Toronto/GTA is big enough market to support another soccer team. 

 

MLS doesn't even crack 100K in Canadian TV ratings for most of time, but if we got two Canadian markets playing against each other, ratings have possibly to be higher than MLS especially if one of major networks (like TSN) broadcast their games.  Given CFL ties to this Canadian league, there's possibly that we will see games on TSN.  

 

OK, pick one.

 

1. "Toronto/GTA is big enough market to support another soccer team."
2. MLS is right to fear losing attendance to a lower division team in GTA.

It seems to me you are arguing both at once when they are, to my eye, contradictory ideas.

 

I would argue that the GTA is big enough for two teams in the same division with another two teams in a lower division (D2 and/or D3). I think MLS has no reason to be concerned about a new team in Hamilton.

[Tuscan]

Let's all look at this from the perspective that MLS actually is quite nervous about a new Canadian top flight. Why would they be nervous? $$$ not going to them and Soccer United Marketing any longer. That's the bottom line. And quite frankly, I say fuck em, we need the top flight. MLS is going to do what they do best - take a strategic approach to try and make sure as much money keeps flowing into their coffers as possible. If that means dropping the Canadians as Internationals rule then they'll do it. If it means making Canadians internationals on Canadian-based MLS teams, they'll do it. Let's let go of our MLS teet-sucking and have a go ourselves.

[Trillium]

Let's all look at this from the perspective that MLS actually is quite nervous about a new Canadian top flight. Why would they be nervous? $$$ not going to them and Soccer United Marketing any longer. That's the bottom line. And quite frankly, I say fuck em, we need the top flight. MLS is going to do what they do best - take a strategic approach to try and make sure as much money keeps flowing into their coffers as possible. If that means dropping the Canadians as Internationals rule then they'll do it. If it means making Canadians internationals on Canadian-based MLS teams, they'll do it. Let's let go of our MLS teet-sucking and have a go ourselves.

The Don knows that if a credible NASL Canada Division exists, second teams in NASL Canada will arrive in his MLS Vancouver and in Toronto.

He cannot be sure Saputo would stay in if they can move the Franchise to a US market and use the presence to market cheese under a unified Saputo brand name.

If MLS franchises can be sold for 250 million in five years and you bought in at 20 million,and can open up in the same business using same trademarks and names, that is a persuasive financial reality.

So the risk of NASL Canada to the Don is if three MLS franchises are repatriated to US markets, he cannot sell those markets at 500 to 1,000 million combined dollars in five or seven years.

So a Saint Louis, Cleveland, San Diego markets lost to MLS / SUM.

If giving a possible 34 jobs to Canadian players gets the CSA to back off a domestic Div 2 league, cheap price to pay.

At an average salary of 50k, it is $1,600,000 dollars a year and that of course is not an incremental cost just a shift of who gets the cash.

The NASL Canada option in my opinion is best for Canadian soccer, for players, coaches and referees it may not happen because the CSA leadership is prone to be satisfied with a sure thing, which would be the MLS giving 34 more spots to Canadian players if they can make the team.

[TFC07]

OK, pick one.

 

1. "Toronto/GTA is big enough market to support another soccer team."
2. MLS is right to fear losing attendance to a lower division team in GTA.

It seems to me you are arguing both at once when they are, to my eye, contradictory ideas.

 

I would argue that the GTA is big enough for two teams in the same division with another two teams in a lower division (D2 and/or D3). I think MLS has no reason to be concerned about a new team in Hamilton.

 

I am saying both.

 

With Hamilton team, TFC now can't afford to mess up like they have in the past (both on-field and off-field) or else risk losing some of their fanbase who might go with cheaper option near their neighborhood to watch live soccer especially if they're Ti-cat SSH who can get tickets even cheaper as part of their benefit being Ti-cat SSH.  

 

But at same time, GTA is huge and filled with a lot of soccer fans that if one of 905 cities (say Mississauga as an example) build a stadium and end up with NASL team, then it wouldn't have any problems supporting it.  Obviously this more concern for MLS and TFC than Hamilton NASL team.  

 

Right now, there isn't much option to go watch live soccer and there's plenty of TFC haters in GTA who either former fans who got priced out or part of Ontario soccer community who have been disrespected by TFC in the past to point that they're telling  talented soccer players to avoid playing for TFC and their academy teams. Let's not forget that a lot of people hate traveling to downtown Toronto (traffic and how expensive everything is in downtown Toronto) that they will be more open to support a soccer team closer to their neighborhood.   

[lazlo_80]

The Don knows that if a credible NASL Canada Division exists, second teams in NASL Canada will arrive in his MLS Vancouver and in Toronto.

If giving a possible 34 jobs to Canadian players gets the CSA to back off a domestic Div 2 league, cheap price to pay.

At an average salary of 50k, it is $1,600,000 dollars a year and that of course is not an incremental cost just a shift of who gets the cash.

The NASL Canada option in my opinion is best for Canadian soccer, for players, coaches and referees it may not happen because the CSA leadership is prone to be satisfied with a sure thing, which would be the MLS giving 34 more spots to Canadian players if they can make the team.

 

 

I can't speak to Vancouver but with respect to Toronto I really don't think there's as many fans as people think that would be interested in leaving D1 MLS for D2 NASL.  Toronto wasn't a strong soccer market with the Lynx because it wasn't top tier...it's the same reason the argos are one of the least stable teams despite being in a huge market, Torontonians want the best and biggest and aren't as interested in supporting something simply because it's canadian.

 

Secondly, I encourage you to listen to the latest episodes of " the two solitudes" podcast as there's some pretty interesting political maneuvers involved here that impact the 2026 bid. Long story short, the MLS changing this rule and the NASL Canadian league are two separate things that won't affect each other.

 

Back to the original topic, clearly this is a good move and really for the MLS is a low risk move. I doubt there will be a sudden mass influx of Canadian players, and if anything, allows MLS teams to consider poaching players from unaffiliated academies in Canada.

[lazlo_80]

oops, double post

[Trillium]

I can't speak to Vancouver but with respect to Toronto I really don't think there's as many fans as people think that would be interested in leaving D1 MLS for D2 NASL.  Toronto wasn't a strong soccer market with the Lynx because it wasn't top tier...it's the same reason the argos are one of the least stable teams despite being in a huge market, Torontonians want the best and biggest and aren't as interested in supporting something simply because it's canadian.

 

 

 

Secondly, I encourage you to listen to the latest episodes of " the two solitudes" podcast as there's some pretty interesting political maneuvers involved here that impact the 2026 bid. Long story short, the MLS changing this rule and the NASL Canadian league are two separate things that won't affect each other.

 

Back to the original topic, clearly this is a good move and really for the MLS is a low risk move. I doubt there will be a sudden mass influx of Canadian players, and if anything, allows MLS teams to consider poaching players from unaffiliated academies in Canada.

 

First off the market for fans for soccer in Toronto is bigger then you think and a club in NASL with right marketing, stadium atmosphere, close supportive ties to the supporters culture can have a solid following that produces income at the gate to cover operating costs. To compare an under capitalized Lynx Club  to what the standard for a club and marketing is today.. well I just do not think it is credible argumente.

 

The Argos have been a swish of something circling a drain for a long long time one can argue that they are in fact behind the Marlies of AHL in status in the market if not behind the Toronto Rock of box lacrosse.

 

2026 World cup bid.. geez get a grip, and the boys on the podcast are crazy if they think just cause we hosted U19 girls and drew big crowds and shipped a couple of thousands dollars to FIFA that that garners votes for a World Cup bid... Men's World Cup bids get won by delivering cheques to National FA presidents so they can spend it on development projects in their respective countries, the CSA has no access to slush funds to do that, and the Government is not going to give it to them. If the city's wanting in on hosting have to cut a million  two million dollar cheque to the CSA to fund the bid, that is eight citys times a million or two,  the public in those cities will be properly outraged.

 

The assertion on the podcast that the Women's World Cup is garnering cudos from FIFA is nice, but the bar was set by the Germans who sold out stadia in 2011 and sent a ton of money to FIFA, I was there and paid to see the final and other games, Germany proved WWC can make money and not by giving away tickets at five dollars a pop in group sales as was done for the U19 final in Edmonton.

 

Canada has pulled back on all sorts of development money in Africa and in Caribbean, where we might hope to have some political pull with the Ministers of Sports in those government s ( and be sure in those countries the Ministry of Sport is funding the Football Federations ) we do not have the diplomatic cache to pile up significant vote tally's.

 

CONCACAF can have Mexico bid or the US bid and both bids out of the box are better then Canada can propose on its own. USA has stadia, reasonable broadcast times for Europe, and made most money for FIFA in World Cup History. Mexico can argue that by 2026 they will have dealt with domestic violence ( and remember folks were afraid to come to Brasil in 2016 and afraid of South Afirca in 2012 ) they have a top domestic league clubs and infrastructure, oh and a government which can and will use cash to get votes in South America and CONCACAF.

 

The CSA bid is a way for the current leadership to justify more trips to Europe and around the World until the bid results are announced it is about entitlement not about growing the game in Canada.

 

World Cup teams are average age of 26 to 27 years old, the 2026 Cup is 12  years out, Identify to me the cadre of players from age 12 to 18 who will be 24 to 30 in 2026 who can hope to score a goal in round robin play ?

 

Show me the development program for such a cadre of players to develop them into solid professionals to be able to qualify on merit for spot in the 2026 World Cup. 

[lazlo_80]

First off the market for fans for soccer in Toronto is bigger then you think and a club in NASL with right marketing, stadium atmosphere, close supportive ties to the supporters culture can have a solid following that produces income at the gate to cover operating costs. To compare an under capitalized Lynx Club  to what the standard for a club and marketing is today.. well I just do not think it is credible argumente.

 

The Argos have been a swish of something circling a drain for a long long time one can argue that they are in fact behind the Marlies of AHL in status in the market if not behind the Toronto Rock of box lacrosse.

 

2026 World cup bid.. geez get a grip, and the boys on the podcast are crazy if they think just cause we hosted U19 girls and drew big crowds and shipped a couple of thousands dollars to FIFA that that garners votes for a World Cup bid... Men's World Cup bids get won by delivering cheques to National FA presidents so they can spend it on development projects in their respective countries, the CSA has no access to slush funds to do that, and the Government is not going to give it to them. If the city's wanting in on hosting have to cut a million  two million dollar cheque to the CSA to fund the bid, that is eight citys times a million or two,  the public in those cities will be properly outraged.

 

The assertion on the podcast that the Women's World Cup is garnering cudos from FIFA is nice, but the bar was set by the Germans who sold out stadia in 2011 and sent a ton of money to FIFA, I was there and paid to see the final and other games, Germany proved WWC can make money and not by giving away tickets at five dollars a pop in group sales as was done for the U19 final in Edmonton.

 

Canada has pulled back on all sorts of development money in Africa and in Caribbean, where we might hope to have some political pull with the Ministers of Sports in those government s ( and be sure in those countries the Ministry of Sport is funding the Football Federations ) we do not have the diplomatic cache to pile up significant vote tally's.

 

CONCACAF can have Mexico bid or the US bid and both bids out of the box are better then Canada can propose on its own. USA has stadia, reasonable broadcast times for Europe, and made most money for FIFA in World Cup History. Mexico can argue that by 2026 they will have dealt with domestic violence ( and remember folks were afraid to come to Brasil in 2016 and afraid of South Afirca in 2012 ) they have a top domestic league clubs and infrastructure, oh and a government which can and will use cash to get votes in South America and CONCACAF.

 

The CSA bid is a way for the current leadership to justify more trips to Europe and around the World until the bid results are announced it is about entitlement not about growing the game in Canada.

 

World Cup teams are average age of 26 to 27 years old, the 2026 Cup is 12  years out, Identify to me the cadre of players from age 12 to 18 who will be 24 to 30 in 2026 who can hope to score a goal in round robin play ?

 

Show me the development program for such a cadre of players to develop them into solid professionals to be able to qualify on merit for spot in the 2026 World Cup. 

 

I don't doubt the market of soccer fans is big in Toronto. I just don't think the market for a D2 soccer team in Toronto is all that big. The market for a D2 team that has a D1 team playing in the same city? Even smaller. Tie into the fact it would likely be one of the few teams in this D2 league without CFL marketing cash in a city flush with options for your entertainment dollar. Again, just my opinion.

[madmonte]

I enjoyed that post from Copes.

 

Right now, with only 5 teams, I can say, reasonably, that I follow all 5.  However, even four years ago, I was only following Whitecaps a bit (which was difficult) and TFC, so TFC got a LOT of my attention.  When the Caps joined the MLS, I was planning to switch my allegiance, but TFC was playing more Canadians, and it's hard to turn that on and off.  So I ended up following both.  With Edmonton in the NASL, I had an option MUCH closer to home to me, and ended up following them too, and they are currently my favorite team, but I still follow TFC, Caps, Montreal, and now Ottawa as well.

 

As someone following 5 teams, what do I think having an all Canadian league at the D2 (let's be real) level mean to me?  It will mean that I won't be following every Canadian player as hardcore, I won't be trying (or able) to follow all of the action in Canada at the pro level.  And THAT is SWEET!  Especially if they are playing a lot of Canadians.

 

 

I don't doubt the market of soccer fans is big in Toronto. I just don't think the market for a D2 soccer team in Toronto is all that big. The market for a D2 team that has a D1 team playing in the same city? Even smaller. Tie into the fact it would likely be one of the few teams in this D2 league without CFL marketing cash in a city flush with options for your entertainment dollar. Again, just my opinion.

 

Perception is everything.  Don't have it right in downtown Toronto, as has been alluded to by others, it's the GTA that can be taken advantage of.  Take the earlier example of Mississauga.  If you call it Mississauga Eagles, or whatever, then the interest builds from the fans from that area, more than if you called it the Toronto Lynx.

 

At least I hope so.  I'm not too sure it's working that well for the Orange County Blues, who DID take that advice, and stopped calling themselves the LA Blues, but they are still only averaging less than 1000 per game.

 

For some reason, though, I truly feel the market in Mississauga would be more receptive than the market in Orange County.  Could just be dreaming though, but the point remains...

 

I'd market it as Mississauga, NOT Toronto, right in the name.

[ted]

I am saying both.

 

That makes no fucking sense. If there is enough support (sponsors and fans) to go around why is the idea of a second team in GTA a threat to their very existence?

Of course the real question is why are you complaining if the perception of competition (if not the reality) gets Garber to do what we wanted in the first place?

[TFC07]

That makes no fucking sense. If there is enough support (sponsors and fans) to go around why is the idea of a second team in GTA a threat to their very existence?

Of course the real question is why are you complaining if the perception of competition (if not the reality) gets Garber to do what we wanted in the first place?

 

It's threat because TFC can no longer mess up and treat their fans like crap like they have in the past.  There's no more monopoly for TFC/MLS anymore!  Does this mean TFC will become money losing team? Of course not, but it means that TFC might not make much money as they want to.  

 

To your second point, I am not complaining about it.  Maybe you need to read better!  I said MLS feels threaten by competition and now countering with counting Canadians as domestic with USA clubs now.  

[ted]

^ fair enough, it read as if you were suggesting it was a bad thing. My fault.

 

I think it would be great if TFC/MLSE were somehow forced to do things better.

[Trillium]

^ fair enough, it read as if you were suggesting it was a bad thing. My fault.

I think it would be great if TFC/MLSE were somehow forced to do things better.

Only the market place can do that, I did a commercial property for sale search in GTA earlier this year.

Two properties turned up right on GO train lines that had space for a tidy 10 to 20k soccer specific stadia at about six to ten million price for land if I remember correctly.

So rapid transit access both parcels were west of downtown TO one in Hazel country near the lake the other in west TO near lake. Build an 8k stand design on one side and two four k design stands in end zones, these could be done at half those numbers and have last side as a four teer standing room only supporters section with roof and you have a great second division stadia.

Allow flares, flags, TIFOS ... And make it intimidating for visiting V Cup derby's with the fancy MLSE corporate types.

Hire Jamie to do marketing and you have sell outs in a 8k plus to 16k plus stadia. Up and running at under 40 million.

Toronto can support a team called the Blizzard, or perhaps call them Hearts of Ontario, and usurp the province as your market. If Toronto gave MLS in stadia atmosphere with streamers...now killed by the fun killers, perhaps the metro area can give soccer fans a viable option, with upside of V Cup and CCL play.

[jpg75]

Allow flares, flags, TIFOS ... And make it intimidating for visiting V Cup derby's with the fancy MLSE corporate types.

Hire Jamie to do marketing and you have sell outs in a 8k plus to 16k plus stadia. Up and running at under 40 million.

Toronto can support a team called the Blizzard, or perhaps call them Hearts of Ontario, and usurp the province as your market. If Toronto gave MLS in stadia atmosphere with streamers...now killed by the fun killers, perhaps the metro area can give soccer fans a viable option, with upside of V Cup and CCL play.

Don't stop there Doug. If you gave out free beer and brought some strippers down the GO line from Montreal you could probably sell out a 50k seat stadium. Burn the place down with illegal fireworks and rebuild it every week to get the economy going in Southern Ontario....

[Yohan]

http://www.sportsnet.ca/soccer/mls-toronto-fc-tfc-ryan-nelsen-tim-bezbatchenko/

 

Canadian MLS clubs also lobbying to change the rules to count Canadians as domestics

[Dub Narcotic]

Kind of strange in some ways for the Canadian teams to lobby for this because it is actually an advantage for them the way it is now. However, on-field results and the poor quality of Canadian players in general have shown in not to be an actual benefit in reality.

[madmonte]

I think it's rather long sighted of the Canadian clubs to take this approach, and I'm sure a lot of this reaction is brought about by conversation with the heads of their respective academies.

[Cheeta]

I think you're giving the clubs too much credit.  If Vancouver is "lobbying" anybody in MLS to do anything they must have a gun pointed at their head.  

 

Wonder who it is and what sort of gun.

[Obinna]

Kind of strange in some ways for the Canadian teams to lobby for this because it is actually an advantage for them the way it is now. However, on-field results and the poor quality of Canadian players in general have shown in not to be an actual benefit in reality.

I'm confused, or perhaps I am missing something, but how is it strange for Canadian teams to lobby for this? How are things currently more advantageous?

 

Wouldn't it be better for the Canadians at TO, MTL and VAN to be considered "domestics" in the USA? I can envision TFC shipping out Morgan to some yank team in exchange for a draft pick or something. As things are now, no team is going to waste an international spot on him, but I bet several teams would line up to take him as a domestic. Morgan gets to play, TFC gets roster flexibility, what is not to like?

 

I would wager that all 3 of our MLS teams are in the top 10 for producing home grown players. Exporting some of those to the US can give our teams some much needed flexibility. Plus it would be great for the CMNT of course

[tmcmurph]

Ah Cheeta you never fail to disappoint me with your obligatory gutter snipe routine. The fact that you have zero to back up your claim just makes it that much more amusing.

 

You might want to check out Obina's angle as I think he is very correct. Now add in a Vancouver academy that sends Clarke to Germany when I'm sure a few MLS teams would take a chance on him if he were domestic and you can see very easily him being traded for some other position we don't have a lot of. We are very heavy at the striker position right now. If anyone stood to gain from this it would be the Caps. 

[finchster]

I'm confused, or perhaps I am missing something, but how is it strange for Canadian teams to lobby for this? How are things currently more advantageous?

 

Wouldn't it be better for the Canadians at TO, MTL and VAN to be considered "domestics" in the USA? I can envision TFC shipping out Morgan to some yank team in exchange for a draft pick or something. As things are now, no team is going to waste an international spot on him, but I bet several teams would line up to take him as a domestic. Morgan gets to play, TFC gets roster flexibility, what is not to like?

 

I would wager that all 3 of our MLS teams are in the top 10 for producing home grown players. Exporting some of those to the US can give our teams some much needed flexibility. Plus it would be great for the CMNT of course

This is probably the correct answer, instead of the illogical "MLS is afraid of NASL" 

 

 

Ah Cheeta you never fail to disappoint me with your obligatory gutter snipe routine. The fact that you have zero to back up your claim just makes it that much more amusing.

 

You might want to check out Obina's angle as I think he is very correct. Now add in a Vancouver academy that sends Clarke to Germany when I'm sure a few MLS teams would take a chance on him if he were domestic and you can see very easily him being traded for some other position we don't have a lot of. We are very heavy at the striker position right now. If anyone stood to gain from this it would be the Caps. 

Let's get rid of Omar Salgado for a cheese sandwich. 

[rob.notenboom]

Let's get rid of Omar Salgado for a cheese sandwich.

Is he worth that much?

[Gordon]

And you believe that Vancouver just figured this out after 3, 4 years? I can just see it...The Duze, shaking Mrs. Duze awake in the early morn' and proclaiming his epiphany: Dagnamitic Deanne! I've been such a dunderhead! Been hurting the 'caps all along!

[finchster]

Is he worth that much?

I start by asking for a grilled ham and cheese sandwich on mulitgrain bread with fresh mozzarella,  my bottom price is a processed cheese sandwich on nearly expired white bread