jpg75 Posted July 9, 2014 Share Posted July 9, 2014 Of course both those players who had other options chose Vancouver. Why? Because the Caps have a first rate development system. That's not the point, you're taking credit for something you had little part of (the development of either of those players up to that point). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VWFC Posted July 9, 2014 Share Posted July 9, 2014 Six straight U17 player of the year awards....Teibert wins the award for 2008 (and 2009), after he was stolen by Vancouver in August of that year from TFC. Then Alderson wins in 2010 (and 2011) having played mostly as a member of Portugal FC of the CSL. Which proves the point that for some of you the agenda is all about picking on the Caps. It wasn't that Teibert chose Vancouver, he was stolen!! Bobby picked him up, flung him over his shoulder and carried him out West. Told him he'd never see his parents again unless he made it to level 21 of the beep test Don't bother mentioning Carducci, find some kink in the armour rather than saying yes that is helpful to the development. And even so, its 4 of the last 6, but still not good enough! Caps bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VWFC Posted July 9, 2014 Share Posted July 9, 2014 That's not the point, you're taking credit for something you had little part of (the development of either of those players up to that point). Next you'll say they didn't develop Froese because he's originally from Winnipeg. His U14 coach in Winnipeg is responsible, couldn't be the Caps, they hate Canada. They didn't take Teibert to the next level, he's actually regressed in BC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maccaliam Posted July 9, 2014 Share Posted July 9, 2014 Of course both those players who had other options chose Vancouver. Why? Because the Caps have a first rate development system. TRM, I have to wonder if players were in the same situation now, would they make the same choice? I would say no due to lack of first team opportunities and there are more choices now. Iirc, RT and Alderson also left bc TFC was so dysfunctional but the caps residency most surely did play a part. Re the Vs cup: why do you believe so many Canadians played in that match? Was it they deserved it bc of talent and training better than other players ahead of them, or bc simply because they are Canadian? I wasn't saying they we're standout performances, I was trying to get to the fact there is some kind of inconsistency if that many got game time. If Vs cup is Mls level game play as you have claimed (and I wouldn't have a lot of disagreement with that), why were so many players performing well enough, good enough and ready to participate in those games but not at any point in the rest of the matches this season? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Beaver Posted July 9, 2014 Share Posted July 9, 2014 Holy crap this forum has gotten stupid. What happened to the (handful) of guys who posted here who were rational, thoughtful etc.? I've not posted here for a long time, I know, but it sure seems that the caliber of thinking has disintegrated over the last couple of years. Get some freaking perspective on the Caps, guys! They are building an excellent club franchise, and that is their ONLY mandate, and it should be their ONLY mandate. They have been doing that since day one in MLS. TFC just started doing the same this year, and I am excited to see that they've finally got their heads straight. Having excellent club franchises in our three largest cities will eventually improve the quality of our national team. EVENTUALLY! But the goal of a club MUST always be to WIN, WIN, WIN! All good things come from there: fan support, increased revenues, attract better players, more money for player development, more young Canadians for the NT etc. As for Bustos, expecting his club to cra.p all over him for his decision is ridiculous. The player is as much a commodity as any other salable good, except that a player has feelings and might not stick around long enough for you to sell their rights to somebody else if you don't treat him well. The Caps have invested significant dollars in this commodity, and someday they will want to get a return on that investment. Bottom line: If our Canadian MLS franchises do not take care of their businesses--and well--then the hope of developing a significant number of young Canadian players will be seriously diminished. I hate Bustos' decision. Its HIS national pride you need to question and criticize. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hodgkiss Posted July 9, 2014 Share Posted July 9, 2014 Why all the hate between clubs? I mean, I get it to an extent but lets face it, none of our clubs are perfect and each one has had some accomplishments and some not so great moments. I really don't think this forum is about pointing the finger and hating on each other - this is supposed to be the place where we are one. As Canadians. C'mon guys we don't need this bantering about which team "hates" Canadians and which teams are developing players better etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Bob Posted July 9, 2014 Author Share Posted July 9, 2014 Nope. Division three requires paying players a realistic wage not a per diem that pays for lunch and professional standards for facilities and training. This seems like a slightly arbitrary declaration. Why must division three be fully professional rather than semi-professional? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmcmurph Posted July 9, 2014 Share Posted July 9, 2014 Why all the hate between clubs? I mean, I get it to an extent but lets face it, none of our clubs are perfect and each one has had some accomplishments and some not so great moments. I really don't think this forum is about pointing the finger and hating on each other - this is supposed to be the place where we are one. As Canadians. C'mon guys we don't need this bantering about which team "hates" Canadians and which teams are developing players better etc. I don't get it either. At the start of each season I hope all 3 Canadian clubs make the playoffs. I'm very glad all 3 now have first rate academies up and running. Except when we play them I wish them good results. Enjoyed their runs in the CCL. Happy for them when they find quality Canadian players who want to play for them. As a supporter of the Whitecaps since the 70s I'm not going to sit idly by and let someone slag my team. What type of supporter is that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmcmurph Posted July 9, 2014 Share Posted July 9, 2014 TRM, I have to wonder if players were in the same situation now, would they make the same choice? I would say no due to lack of first team opportunities and there are more choices now. Iirc, RT and Alderson also left bc TFC was so dysfunctional but the caps residency most surely did play a part. Re the Vs cup: why do you believe so many Canadians played in that match? Was it they deserved it bc of talent and training better than other players ahead of them, or bc simply because they are Canadian? I wasn't saying they we're standout performances, I was trying to get to the fact there is some kind of inconsistency if that many got game time. If Vs cup is Mls level game play as you have claimed (and I wouldn't have a lot of disagreement with that), why were so many players performing well enough, good enough and ready to participate in those games but not at any point in the rest of the matches this season? TFC has got their act together and will keep most prospects now. Those that do leave will do so to Europe not Vancouver or Montreal. I don't know what they would decide today. A lot has changed. Squad rotation and the coach's focus on MLS results. In short the coach decided the V's Cup results wouldn't get him fired if it went badly with a bunch of kids on the field. He wanted to see what they could do. They did okay but didn't take the spot in any way I could see. Maybe next time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpg75 Posted July 9, 2014 Share Posted July 9, 2014 Which proves the point that for some of you the agenda is all about picking on the Caps. It wasn't that Teibert chose Vancouver, he was stolen!! Bobby picked him up, flung him over his shoulder and carried him out West. Told him he'd never see his parents again unless he made it to level 21 of the beep test Don't bother mentioning Carducci, find some kink in the armour rather than saying yes that is helpful to the development. And even so, its 4 of the last 6, but still not good enough! Caps bad. Wow someone calls you out on your agenda and all you can do is resort to hyperbole and sarcasm. If you hadn't noticed i have barely written anything on this topic and yet i'm lumped in as part of some conspiracy. What i wrote is fact, you can't dispute that. You don't like the term "stolen"? Fine call it "poaching" if it makes you feel better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpg75 Posted July 9, 2014 Share Posted July 9, 2014 Next you'll say they didn't develop Froese because he's originally from Winnipeg. His U14 coach in Winnipeg is responsible, couldn't be the Caps, they hate Canada. They didn't take Teibert to the next level, he's actually regressed in BC. Actually the youth clubs were mostly responsible for the development of Teibert and Alderson up to the U17 level. Now that Teibert is in his early 20's his professional development is obviously thanks to Vancouver. Though i have been a vocal critic in the past that he wasn't being given enough time by Rennie in 2012. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ted Posted July 9, 2014 Share Posted July 9, 2014 Holy crap this forum has gotten stupid. What happened to the (handful) of guys who posted here who were rational, thoughtful etc.? I think rational thought has no place in this thread and so rational people just want it to die. This seems like a slightly arbitrary declaration. Why must division three be fully professional rather than semi-professional? Not sure what you are getting at since I never used those terms and "semi-professional" is a huge spectrum. What I was trying to say is that players need to be paid a wage that allows them to train regularly under professional supervision to professional standards and play/train full-time during the "season". If they have to work a full-time job outside the club during the season then it is not good enough and does nothing for our long-term development and is no better than the PDL, L10 and PLSQ. I have no problem with some players having to do other work in the off-season, which makes them semi-professionals. Minimum wage for such a league could be as low as around $10,000 per season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VWFC Posted July 9, 2014 Share Posted July 9, 2014 Wow someone calls you out on your agenda and all you can do is resort to hyperbole and sarcasm. If you hadn't noticed i have barely written anything on this topic and yet i'm lumped in as part of some conspiracy. What i wrote is fact, you can't dispute that. You don't like the term "stolen"? Fine call it "poaching" if it makes you feel better. You didn't call me out on 'my agenda'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VWFC Posted July 9, 2014 Share Posted July 9, 2014 oh never mind Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VWFC Posted July 9, 2014 Share Posted July 9, 2014 sorry, fat fingers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThiKu Posted July 10, 2014 Share Posted July 10, 2014 I am mad as hell about this move by Bustos. But let's also look at the reality. The Chilean team is superb. So good that Morales wasn't in their World Cup squad (was he even considered?). Will Bustos develop into a better player than Morales? I don't know, but I doubt it...? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madmonte Posted July 10, 2014 Share Posted July 10, 2014 I hate to bring this up in an already heated thread, but has Ethan Finlay ever lived in Canada? If so, when? And for those that want him on the national team, is the "he isn't good enough for the US" REALLY a valid excuse for those that choose to lambaste Bustos for his decision? Just trying to spark conversation, don't glue me to the wall and fire shots lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maccaliam Posted July 10, 2014 Share Posted July 10, 2014 I hate to bring this up in an already heated thread, but has Ethan Finlay ever lived in Canada? If so, when? And for those that want him on the national team, is the "he isn't good enough for the US" REALLY a valid excuse for those that choose to lambaste Bustos for his decision? Just trying to spark conversation, don't glue me to the wall and fire shots lol Has Finley represented the American youth teams? Has Finley taken us government funding while taking the spot of another American on their youth teams and academy teams? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madmonte Posted July 10, 2014 Share Posted July 10, 2014 Has Finley represented the American youth teams? Has Finley taken us government funding while taking the spot of another American on their youth teams and academy teams? No he has not. Let me point out that it only came out in the thread about Canadian government funding AFTER Bustos was already being yelled and screamed at. I think even if he had not, we would have, on this forum, screamed anger anyway. (let me point out that I'm one of the ones not happy with Bustos) I also think we would have had a TONNE of angry Voyageurs even had he not yet represented Canada (see Hoilett). So while those are certainly valid points in retrospect, please allow me to point out that even in the absence of those facts, Bustos would still be absolutely getting blasted on these forums. I agree that it definitely adds to our justifiable anger at Bustos, though. Are you saying that if someone HAD represented the USA youth teams, we should not consider them? Are you saying that if someone did receive any support from another government, that they should not be considered for Canada? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert J Posted July 10, 2014 Share Posted July 10, 2014 I do certainly appreciate the point about the perception of inconsistency when it comes to embracing players born/raised elsewhere as part of the CMNT setup, and then responding with vitriol when a player turns his back on Canada after being born/raised here. My position, and it's not a perfect one, starts with the notion that a player should be expected to play for the country he was born and/or raised in. (I would say that if a player is developed in a country not of his birth, e.g., after coming over at a very young age, he should be expected to play for his adopted country.) Now, if a player is at some point rejected, deemed not good enough, or otherwise informed by his national team that he has no chance of playing for it, and he has a legitimate claim to play for another (e.g., passport or immediate family connection), I suppose there is room for debate about whether that player should play for another country. I suppose what bothers me most about Bustos and other similar players is that they turn their back on Canada when it is obvious they would be/are identified as contributors to the national team setup in some form/age group. Put another way, it doesn't seem defensible for a player Canada needs to abandon us for a "better opportunity" with another country. This isn't club football. In a perfect world, I would prefer it if Canada didn't need to bolster its rosters with foreign players who have only the flimsiest ties to the country. But the reality is, we need all the help we can get. And *if* that player's opportunities with his home country are exhausted or non-existent I would be open to supporting said player. I do think there is a qualitative difference between the likes of that sort and players we all know and criticize for turning their backs on us, but I'm not so obtuse that I wouldn't accept the line drawing gets a little wobbly here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
youllneverwalkalone Posted July 10, 2014 Share Posted July 10, 2014 It's football, you don't need intellectual consistency. It's tribal. Love the foreigners who play for Canada, hate the Canadians who play for foreigners. It's really that fucking simple. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
killgod Posted July 10, 2014 Share Posted July 10, 2014 It's football, you don't need intellectual consistency. It's tribal. Love the foreigners who play for Canada, hate the Canadians who play for foreigners. It's really that fucking simple. Exactly. This scenario is rightfully loaded with bias. Nothing wrong about it. We're no different in how we feel than any other nation when it comes to this, we all saw how much the Brazilians loathed Costa. It's merely because we are Canadian that we question our right to be pissed off, cause Canadians always get confused when they get mad when we're not drunk and/or playing hockey, eh? The logic behind the argument is sound, but I don't give a flying grizzly bear fuck about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert J Posted July 10, 2014 Share Posted July 10, 2014 Point taken. Honestly, I'm as much trying to make sense of/rationalize why I'm so pissed about Bustos but have had no problems in the past getting behind foreigners we manage to persuade to play for us... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madmonte Posted July 10, 2014 Share Posted July 10, 2014 Personally I prefer to be intellectually consistent. This is a tough topic to do that on...I'm sort of more with Robert J... Everyone's sphere from black to white and the shades of grey in between is going to be slightly different. Personally I'm pissed at Bustos, but then, for my intellectual consistency, I don't care at all if we chase players like Camilo and Finlay. In fact, I'm against it, because it would make ME feel intellectually inconsistent. That's the only point I'm trying to make. Not everyone can be completely irrational and tribal about it...if that's your argument to defend it, that's fine, but at least be honest about it (as Ryan and youllneverwalkalone clearly WERE...honest...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ted Posted July 10, 2014 Share Posted July 10, 2014 It's football, you don't need intellectual consistency. It's tribal. Love the foreigners who play for Canada, hate the Canadians who play for foreigners. It's really that fucking simple. The logic behind the argument is sound, but I don't give a flying grizzly bear fuck about it. YES! A thousand times YES! Personally I prefer to be intellectually consistent. Then you are in the wrong place and/or following the wrong sport. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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