Marco Bustos to Chile U-20

[TFC07]

Pure anti-Cap, uneducated, ignorance.  You have no interest in the CMNT, your just trollin'.

 

Truth hurts, eh?  Have to resort to name calling since you can't respond back anything meaningful.   

[VWFC]

Truth hurts, eh?  Have to resort to name calling since you can't respond back anything meaningful.   

 

No your ignorance hurts.  I wont respond to that the same way I wouldnt respond to someone who denies evolution.  Theres no point arguing with someone who doesnt care about the truth.

[VWFC]

You obviously have no idea what you're talking about.  How many Whitecap players have played for CMNT lately?  Please don't start stating players from pre-MLS Whitecap era.  I am talking about Whitecap players from MLS era.  

 

All MLS teams are require to have academy and have them playing somewhere.  Joining USSF with rest of MLS clubs isn't something to celebrate about,  TFCA didn't join because they were happy to stay locally.  So being first Canadian team in USSF isn't accomplishment (it means nothing).  

 

USL Pro and MLS form agreement that MLS clubs suppose to partner up with USL Pro teams.  Again, what Whitecaps are doing isn't unique or special.  They're doing it because rest of MLS teams are doing it.  

 

Teibert, Clarke, Farmer, Thomas, Davies.  And since TFC has been in the MLS 4 years longer you either have to compare from 2011 or allow pre-MLS.  Cant change all the rules to suit yourself.

 

But how is joining the USSF bad or unimportant?  They found a competitive league for U-16 and U-18.  How is that meaningless?  Take off the TFC glasses your embarrassing. 

 

They do have a USL agreement, but you dont have to use it or start your own team.  Glasses.  TFC. 

[TFC07]

Teibert, Clarke, Farmer, Thomas, Davies.  And since TFC has been in the MLS 4 years longer you either have to compare from 2011 or allow pre-MLS.  Cant change all the rules to suit yourself.

 

But how is joining the USSF bad or unimportant?  They found a competitive league for U-16 and U-18.  How is that meaningless?  Take off the TFC glasses your embarrassing. 

 

They do have a USL agreement, but you dont have to use it or start your own team.  Glasses.  TFC. 

 

Umm original argument is since Whitecaps joining MLS, they have been not doing much for Canadian soccer.  No one is changing all the rules.  Notice players you mention don't play first team minutes except for one player?  Also, how many caps those players have for CMNT?  

 

All MLS clubs except for TFC is playing in their academy teams in USSF.  How's that accomplishment or success as you pointed it? It makes no sense.  TFC is only club because they wanted to stay locally.  Doing what rest of MLS clubs are doing isn't accomplishment. 

 

All MLS teams are require to have some form partnerships with USL Pro clubs.  It's part of MLS-USL agreement! This is why TFC has partnership this year with Wilmington Hammerheads  until they find a place for Toronto Lynx to play in.  Like I said before, what Whitecaps are doing isn't nothing to brag about.

 

I don't know how much clearer do I have make to you on these points.     

[TFC07]

No your ignorance hurts.  I wont respond to that the same way I wouldnt respond to someone who denies evolution.  Theres no point arguing with someone who doesnt care about the truth.

 

You have it backwards.  You obviously don't follow MLS as much because if you did, then you would know all things Whitecaps are doing is because the league policy.  

[narduch]

 

 

All MLS clubs except for TFC is playing in their academy teams in USSF.  How's that accomplishment or success as you pointed it? It makes no sense.  TFC is only club because they wanted to stay locally.  Doing what rest of MLS clubs are doing isn't accomplishment. 

 

Agreed. Even the training center is MLS mandated and heavily subsidized by Adidas.

 

When the Whitecaps start playing Canadians regularly and/or players that come through its system start to represent Canada in a meaningful manner the criticisms will go away.

 

Until that happens though, the actions of the club make it look like they don't give a shit about Canadian soccer.

[Acid-Tone]

I don't understand why some of you guys are dragging your club interests into a conversation about an individuals short-sighted decision.

 

We get it.   You like TFC and not the Whitecaps.   Point made.   Now move on.

 

 

 

It fucking sucks that some players prefer what they see as a better opportunity for personal fame/wealth/glory over trying to be part of the solution to improve the game they love, in their own county!!

[tmcmurph]

I wish I could like Acid-Tone's comment more than once. 

 

narduch: When the Whitecaps start playing Canadians regularly and/or players that come through its system start to represent Canada in a meaningful manner the criticisms will go away.

 

Yea right. I highly doubt I'll ever hear anything but venom spewing. There is no pleasing some people. You are one of them. 

 

So cut with the vague "playing Canadians regularly" and "players that come through its system start to represent Canada in a meaningful manner" BS. Exactly what is it you want? How many of the all important first team minutes before you lay off the Caps? How many players getting how many caps with the MNT before you lay off the Caps? Specifics man, specifics. 

 

 

 

Oh by the way, Olivier Occean is thinking of returning home and he WANTS to play in Montreal. Apparently other MLS teams are interested as well. I envy the Impact in one way. They have Canadians who want to play there. First Patrice and now Occean. Heck with Issey added in next year the Impact will have the most minutes for Canadians. 3 MLS quality starters. Oh how I envy that stat (must be the poutine). Maybe in time it will happen for us and TFC as well. 

[narduch]

narduch: When the Whitecaps start playing Canadians regularly and/or players that come through its system start to represent Canada in a meaningful manner the criticisms will go away.

 

Yea right. I highly doubt I'll ever hear anything but venom spewing. There is no pleasing some people. You are one of them. 

 

So cut with the vague "playing Canadians regularly" and "players that come through its system start to represent Canada in a meaningful manner" BS. Exactly what is it you want? How many of the all important first team minutes before you lay off the Caps? How many players getting how many caps with the MNT before you lay off the Caps? Specifics man, specifics. 

 

This post is total bs. Which is par for the course for the Whitecap fanboy brigade on this forum.

 

The way things have gone I'd be ecstatic if the Caps had 2 Canadians starting regularly that were also National teamers. That's how pathetically low the standards have gotten with the way that team has been run.

 

And for the record I'm not happy with the way the entire MLS in Canada experience is going. The Whitecaps get singled out because they are the worst culprit and they have a track record of actions that are anti-Canadian (lobbying for the lower quota, the Bustos situation, etc).

[Keegan]

Why would people hate the Whitecaps without reason?  How is this country so damn hard headed and stubborn?

 

Do you honestly think that TFC AND Montreal fans as arch rivals and the biggest rivalry in MLS are getting together in some mad conspiracy to bash Vancouver?  Even Lord Bob has turned on Vancouver.  Open your eyes, enlighten yourselves to the situation.  This isn't a conspiracy this is reality. 

 

We aren't insulting you Vancouver fans.  Let's get that off our chests.  We love that you support your local pro team... you are doing the RIGHT thing.  We want you to inspire change in YOUR club because it's kinda hard to inspire change in your club as a TFC supporter on the other side of the country.  There should be a banner against Chivas USA denouncing Bustos.  Even TFC fans have a banner for Teal when he comes to town and that was years ago and for MUCH MUCH better reasons. 

[tmcmurph]

This post is total bs. Which is par for the course for the Whitecap fanboy brigade on this forum.

 

The way things have gone I'd be ecstatic if the Caps had 2 Canadians starting regularly that were also National teamers. That's how pathetically low the standards have gotten with the way that team has been run.

 

And for the record I'm not happy with the way the entire MLS in Canada experience is going. The Whitecaps get singled out because they are the worst culprit and they have a track record of actions that are anti-Canadian (lobbying for the lower quota, the Bustos situation, etc).

 

No no no no. No you don't. You are now the one refusing to provide a measurement criteria. If you don't measure it accurately you can't manage it at all. "2 Canadians starting regularly"? How many first team minutes per year do you want? How many caps and or minutes on the field for the MNT? 

 

If you are unwilling or unable to provide specifics you and your entire argumentative nature are exposed for what they truly are. Whiny assed opinionated hateful and totally void of any intelligence. Come on it's not that hard. How many FTM? How many caps/FTM for the MNT? Don't want to do any research or work a calculator? Then STFU on the subject.

[narduch]

No no no no. No you don't. You are now the one refusing to provide a measurement criteria. If you don't measure it accurately you can't manage it at all. "2 Canadians starting regularly"? How many first team minutes per year do you want? How many caps and or minutes on the field for the MNT? 

 

If you are unwilling or unable to provide specifics you and your entire argumentative nature are exposed for what they truly are. A whiny assed opinionated hateful and totally void of any intelligence. Come on it's not that hard. How many FTM? How many caps/FTM for the MNT? Don't want to do any research or work a calculator? Then STFU on the subject.

 

Haha.

 

You are insane.

 

You've lost it.

[tmcmurph]

Haha.

 

You are insane.

 

You've lost it.

 

And still no numbers!!! You are a coward. Unwilling to put numbers to what you think is "reasonable". Ha. I'm so amused. Keep it vague and never put specifics to be measured by. We don't want accuracy and viable measurements that can be held up later. No that wouldn't do. 

 

Keep it up. I'm really enjoying this now. 

[narduch]

And still no numbers!!! You are a coward. Unwilling to put numbers to what you think is "reasonable". Ha. I'm so amused. Keep it vague and never put specifics to be measured by. We don't want accuracy and viable measurements that can be held up later. No that wouldn't do.

Keep it up. I'm really enjoying this now.

Lol. I gave you a threshold. So fucking low that even the Whitecaps might even be able to obtain it.

Just because you are too stupid to understand isn't my problem. It figures you support your club without question.

I want to see Canadian soccer succeed. You seem to only care about the Caps.

[Keegan]

And still no numbers!!! You are a coward. Unwilling to put numbers to what you think is "reasonable". Ha. I'm so amused. Keep it vague and never put specifics to be measured by. We don't want accuracy and viable measurements that can be held up later. No that wouldn't do. 

 

Keep it up. I'm really enjoying this now. 

 

How about more than 1 Canadian appearing for Vancouver in a season?  We'll set the bar as the low in world football as possible just to start.

 

TFC has regularly featured Osorio, Henry and Bekker this season with appearances for De Rosario and Hamilton as well.  Morgan hasn't had much time this season but he's been a regular in years past. 

 

Montreal has Ouimette, Bernier and Tissot featuring regularly and Lefevre who I think can be considered a legitimate CMNT prospect.  With the signing of JGL hopefully he sees some minutes as well this season.

 

 

The most Canadians to see the pitch in a season for Vancouver is 2!  Hell, the one Canadian you have is my favourite player but at the end of the day Floro doesn't even like him so what are you contributing to the CMNT?

[tmcmurph]

Lol. I gave you a threshold. So fucking low that even the Whitecaps might even be able to obtain it.

Just because you are too stupid to understand isn't my problem. It figures you support your club without question.

I want to see Canadian soccer succeed. You seem to only care about the Caps.

 

" I'd be ecstatic if the Caps had 2 Canadians starting regularly". You see that word "regularly" in there again. That is ambiguous. I am asking for qualification. Is that 10 starts at 90 minutes each? 15? 20? Easiest way is minutes in the season because that will cover subs and starts.

 

The only Canadian making starts (plural) for Vancouver this year (and last year I think) in MLS games is Russell who is at 14 apps, 9 starts and 800 minutes so far this year. Not great but better than nothing. Sad thing is he has dropped below Fernandez for the position he plays and I'd have to say that is justified. Russell isn't worse but Fernandez is clearly better so far this year. 

 

As Keegan has pointed out 1 would be a good start but who is the question? Will would rather play for Portland, and Friend turned down more money to stay in Germany then went to LA. Peters shows up for a training camp 15 pounds overweight, others have trialled but not worked out.

 

What Canadians are available that are willing to play in Vancouver?

What Canadians in the club are better than the players starting? 

 

It is very difficult to see the situation improving much in the short term. Sad because I'd love to snag Occean but it looks like Montreal is where he wants to be. Part of the problem could be our drafts have worked out real well. I'd love to see Clarke get some shots once he recovers from surgery but Hurtado, Mattocks, Manneh & Salgado all play that position. Congestion is a problem. Some trades might open up some spots but the players got to take it when they get the chance. Hopefully they will. 

[tmcmurph]

Lol. I gave you a threshold. So fucking low that even the Whitecaps might even be able to obtain it.

Just because you are too stupid to understand isn't my problem. It figures you support your club without question.

I want to see Canadian soccer succeed. You seem to only care about the Caps.

 

No you didn't. You continued your ambiguous "regularly" nonsense. Please stop being so vague and provide the measurements in the units requested. If that is too hard for you then that is your problem.

 

I support my club. It has been great for soccer in Canada at all levels. I care about both but I can separate club and country. You obviously feel that the clubs should function as a place for Canadian players to get preferred playing time on the first team. I don't and see that as a poor entitlement attitude. Starting positions are taken, not given.

 

Club's are first and foremost a business. The club's first job is to keep the fans coming in which will fund the rest including the academies that develop our future players. 

 

We have developed a lot of players. Some have gone to Europe, some to NASL, some to MLS, some to university and currently 5 are employed full time by the club. None have broken through to the first team full time yet although one is in the game day 18 and getting about 1800 minutes a season.

 

So please tell me which Canadian players are available? 

 

Which Canadian players in the club should start ahead of the current starters? 

 

Adekugbe over Harvey? 

Alderson over Morales?

Carducci over Ousted?

Teibert over Fernandez?

Clarke over Hurtado, Mattocks, Manneh, Salgado?

[king1010]

I feel as if the Vancouver Fans on the this forum are enabling their management to continue to shun Canadian player development. This attitude displayed on this forum by Vancouver supporters will not cause Vancouver management to change their decision process involving Canadian players in the future. Rather this attitude reinforces decisions such as "encouraging Bustos to attend a Chile camp."

 

I understand you support your team but take some of the effort you've put into this forum and get in touch with the Vancouver front office and let them know you are not happy about he Bustos situation, and frankly unhappy with the lack of Canadian Player development overall when compared to other Canadian clubs. 

[Lord Bob]

So cut with the vague "playing Canadians regularly" and "players that come through its system start to represent Canada in a meaningful manner" BS. Exactly what is it you want? How many of the all important first team minutes before you lay off the Caps? How many players getting how many caps with the MNT before you lay off the Caps? Specifics man, specifics. 

The 2009 Vancouver Whitecaps were a highly successful team that reached the USL First Division final (against another Canadian team, Montreal) and probably would have won if not for some dodgy refereeing. They were also the best team in the Voyageurs Cup but denied the crown by the Montreal Impact fielding a B team against Toronto and giving them the championship. In short, on the field, the Whitecaps experienced the sort of success that MLS-era Whitecaps fans would kill for.

 

Canadians played 12,996 minutes in the league that season for Vancouver in 30 games (MLS seasons are 34 games).

 

I'll be generous, though, and count myself satisfied when the Whitecaps are up over 10,000 Canadian minutes per MLS season.

[tmcmurph]

I feel as if the Vancouver Fans on the this forum are enabling their management to continue to shun Canadian player development. This attitude displayed on this forum by Vancouver supporters will not cause Vancouver management to change their decision process involving Canadian players in the future. Rather this attitude reinforces decisions such as "encouraging Bustos to attend a Chile camp."

 

I understand you support your team but take some of the effort you've put into this forum and get in touch with the Vancouver front office and let them know you are not happy about he Bustos situation, and frankly unhappy with the lack of Canadian Player development overall when compared to other Canadian clubs. 

 

How do the Whitecaps team "shun Canadian player development"? They run a first rate academy for you players, They have more CMNT appearances for players they've developed than the other 2 teams combined? How exactly have they shunned Canadian player development?

 

So for nobody except Bustos is happy but if the CSA doesn't take action against this type of behaviour (which I strongly advocate) then how can you expect a club to? This is not a club issue. It is a national team issue and if the CSA don't kick him out of the program what is it you expect the Whitecaps to do?

[tmcmurph]

The 2009 Vancouver Whitecaps were a highly successful team that reached the USL First Division final (against another Canadian team, Montreal) and probably would have won if not for some dodgy refereeing. They were also the best team in the Voyageurs Cup but denied the crown by the Montreal Impact fielding a B team against Toronto and giving them the championship. In short, on the field, the Whitecaps experienced the sort of success that MLS-era Whitecaps fans would kill for.

 

Canadians played 12,996 minutes in the league that season for Vancouver in 30 games (MLS seasons are 34 games).

 

I'll be generous, though, and count myself satisfied when the Whitecaps are up over 10,000 Canadian minutes per MLS season.

 

Yes a successful D2 team that totally face planted when moved up to D1 (MLS). You do remember 2011 don't you? Very painful.

 

Okay so 10k minutes. That is good. We finally have a goal defined that is not ambiguous and vague. Now we are getting somewhere! Glad someone is willing to put a measureable number on it. That is about 3 starters worth of time and damn would that be nice.

 

Next question for you (and whoever else wants to answer) is do you count the V's Cup and CCL games? I would say yes because it is MLS level competition and facing central american teams in the CCL is great experience for any WCQ we'll be in.

 

So far the Whitecaps are at 658 minutes in V's Cup and 796 for MLS for a total of 1454 minutes. Like I said not great but a start.

 

Like I asked previously:

 

So please tell me which Canadian players are available? 

 

Which Canadian players in the club should start ahead of the current starters? 

 

Adekugbe over Harvey? 

Alderson over Morales?

Carducci over Ousted?

Teibert over Fernandez?

Clarke over Hurtado, Mattocks, Manneh, Salgado?

 

We all know that the Whitecaps have pursued Bernier, Friend, Johnson and other Canadian internationals but they have signed elsewhere. That is their choice.

 

While first team minutes is one measure of a club's support for Canadian players it is not always going to happen. Players may not want to play there. You can't blame a club for that. Other measures are equally valid and should be taken together with it to see the whole picture.

 

Does the club develop Canadian youth? Yes.

Do some of those go on to play on CMNT? Yes.

Do they employ more than the 3 that the CSA requires? Yes.

 

After that it is up to the players to take the starting spots and keep them.

 

Instead of blaming the Caps for not giving Canadians playing time another way of looking at why so few have broken through to the first team is:

 

Why are Canadian players not wanting to play in Vancouver?

Why are the players in the system not taking the starting spots?

[Lord Bob]

Yes a successful D2 team that totally face planted when moved up to D1 (MLS). You do remember 2011 don't you? Very painful.

I do. That wasn't the same team. The leading players on the 2009 Whitecaps were Taka Hirano, Martin Nash, Luca Bellisomo, Wes Knight, Charles Gbeke, Marcus Haber, and Marlon James, with a big assist to some depth guys. Knight is the only one who got into MLS with the Whitecaps and he actually did pretty well, although his career's been badly hurt and possibly ended by injury.

The 2010 Whitecaps were secretly really mediocre. They also reduced their Canadian content significantly.

 

Next question for you (and whoever else wants to answer) is do you count the V's Cup and CCL games? I would say yes because it is MLS level competition and facing central american teams in the CCL is great experience for any WCQ we'll be in.

For the purpose of the 10,000 minutes figure, no, because that wouldn't be comparing like with like. But in general terms if I was considering how Canadian the Whitecaps were then of course the Voyageurs Cup and CONCACAF Champions League would count. The two games in which a bunch of Canadians and a Chilean got in for the Whitecaps in the Voyageurs Cup this year don't count for nothing; they just don't make up for the thirty-four games those Canadians don't get in.

[tmcmurph]

Charles Gbeke had huge issues and fist fights with teammates.

Marcus Haber was on loan from his UK team.

Martin Nash was 35. Good passer but not a good runner.

Luca Bellisomo. Are you saying you think those he is a MLS level player? Luca played in Finland's D1 league. I'd rate MLS as ahead of that.

 

- These 3 are not Canadian plus

Wes Knight, Marlon James was constantly injured and Taka Hirano was 36 in 2010

 

Playing TFC and the Impact is not like for like? Playing against Edmonton you would have a case but not when we face Toronto or Montreal like we did this year. If you don't want to count the Edmonton (or other D2 opponents) games that is fair but the other 2 are MLS level and field MLS level teams.

[Lord Bob]

Charles Gbeke had a temper but he produced. Marcus Haber was on loan in 2010; in 2009 the Whitecaps owned him. Martin Nash was 35, good passer but not a good runner, sure got fucking results though and that's what counts. Yes, Luca Bellisomo was an MLS-level player, there's not a fraction of a doubt in my mind. Luca played very regularly and by all accounts very well in Finland. Marlon James and Taka Hirano weren't Canadian, I was naming them because they were two of the core players on a good team that year.

In my post I was listing the number of league minutes played by Canadians. League minutes. That's what I've been talking about the whole time, because that's what I have data for. Suddenly introducing league + Voyageurs Cup + CCL minutes would not be comparing like with like.

[youllneverwalkalone]

Lord Bob, did you give up your MLS tickets and will you buy season tickets for the New West club?