Marco Bustos to Chile U-20

[VWFC]

Umm original argument is since Whitecaps joining MLS, they have been not doing much for Canadian soccer.  No one is changing all the rules.  Notice players you mention don't play first team minutes except for one player?  Also, how many caps those players have for CMNT?  

 

All MLS clubs except for TFC is playing in their academy teams in USSF.  How's that accomplishment or success as you pointed it? It makes no sense.  TFC is only club because they wanted to stay locally.  Doing what rest of MLS clubs are doing isn't accomplishment. 

 

All MLS teams are require to have some form partnerships with USL Pro clubs.  It's part of MLS-USL agreement! This is why TFC has partnership this year with Wilmington Hammerheads  until they find a place for Toronto Lynx to play in.  Like I said before, what Whitecaps are doing isn't nothing to brag about.

 

I don't know how much clearer do I have make to you on these points.     

 

There is only one thing that's clear - You are a TFC supporter first, and a CMNT supporter second.  Your club views blur your judgement and make you sound ignorant.  If your first priority was Canada you could say 'that is a positive for Canadian development', without hesitation.  Its not about bragging, its about the CMNT.  Admitting that the New West USL team is positive for Canadian soccer doesn't mean you support the Caps or all there decisions, it means you see opportunity for Canadian players.

 

I hate TFC, but I appreciate they give playing time to Canadians and I love Henry and Osorio.  See not that hard.   

 

I going to ask you one yes or no question so everyone on here can see where your loyalties lie -

 

Is the new Vancouver Whitecaps USL Pro team in New West a positive and benefit for Canadian soccer?  Yes or No?  

[Lord Bob]

Lord Bob, did you give up your MLS tickets and will you buy season tickets for the New West club?

In order: I did give up the MLS tickets, and I'm inclined to buy into the New West club instead.

[youllneverwalkalone]

In order: I did give up the MLS tickets, and I'm inclined to buy into the New West club instead.

I will definitely get New West tickets as it's my hood. Honestly the missus is probably equally responsible if I give up my 2015 MLS seats, but I'm quite pissed off with the club. I'm trying to reconcile whether cancelling MLS and buying USL actually makes any statement at all.

[tmcmurph]

Charles Gbeke had a temper but he produced. Marcus Haber was on loan in 2010; in 2009 the Whitecaps owned him. Martin Nash was 35, good passer but not a good runner, sure got fucking results though and that's what counts. Yes, Luca Bellisomo was an MLS-level player, there's not a fraction of a doubt in my mind. Luca played very regularly and by all accounts very well in Finland. Marlon James and Taka Hirano weren't Canadian, I was naming them because they were two of the core players on a good team that year.

In my post I was listing the number of league minutes played by Canadians. League minutes. That's what I've been talking about the whole time, because that's what I have data for. Suddenly introducing league + Voyageurs Cup + CCL minutes would not be comparing like with like.

 

Luca I would have liked to see get a go at MLS. He and lots of others were left out. Gbeke was cut by Montreal for similar reasons.

 

Okay so your list covers only league minutes. I understand. I was asking for a number of current MLS minutes that people would find acceptable. Historical comparissons to the D2 era will not work. Edmonton currently wins if we are including D2 first team minutes. I thought it was MLS first team minutes we were discussing.

[Lord Bob]

I dunno about a statement. I didn't give up my MLS season tickets to protest, or to send a message, or whatever: I gave them up because I found I no longer gave a shit.

[TFC07]

There is only one thing that's clear - You are a TFC supporter first, and a CMNT supporter second.  Your club views blur your judgement and make you sound ignorant.  If your first priority was Canada you could say 'that is a positive for Canadian development', without hesitation.  Its not about bragging, its about the CMNT.  Admitting that the New West USL team is positive for Canadian soccer doesn't mean you support the Caps or all there decisions, it means you see opportunity for Canadian players.

 

I hate TFC, but I appreciate they give playing time to Canadians and I love Henry and Osorio.  See not that hard.   

 

I going to ask you one yes or no question so everyone on here can see where your loyalties lie -

 

Is the new Vancouver Whitecaps USL Pro team in New West a positive and benefit for Canadian soccer?  Yes or No?  

 

As of today, No unless you're sending kids (under 20)

 

USL Pro is too low of level IMO for young players (21 and over) to develop (USL Pro is close to NCAA level)  Maybe the level will increase with MLS sending better players once everyone has partnered up with USL Pro club, but as of today, I think quality of USL pro isn't good enough especially if we want to produce "World Cup" quality players.  

[youllneverwalkalone]

I dunno about a statement. I didn't give up my MLS season tickets to protest, or to send a message, or whatever: I gave them up because I found I no longer gave a shit.

Fair enough. That's a good a reason. I guess I still enjoy the games, but Queen's Park with a bunch local guys playing pro soccer sounds more enjoyable to me.

[maccaliam]

 

Which Canadian players in the club should start ahead of the current starters? 

 

Adekugbe over Harvey? 

Alderson over Morales?

Carducci over Ousted?

Teibert over Fernandez?

Clarke over Hurtado, Mattocks, Manneh, Salgado?

Why does a young player have to start in order to get first team minutes? Substitute minutes are a good opportunity for a young player to show their worth. Having said that though, there isn't a team I can think of on Earth who don't occasionally start a young player over a better first 11 choice player for a variety of reasons. Perhaps there a reason why the Caps can't also do this, but I can't figure out why. These Canadians, IMO, don't seem to be getting a chance.

[VWFC]

As of today, No unless you're sending kids (under 20)

 

You are a TFC fanboy.  That's fine, but this is a forum for the CMNT.  Your better off on the Red Patch forum.  

 

Thanks.   

[TFC07]

You are a TFC fanboy.  That's fine, but this is a forum for the CMNT.  Your better off on the Red Patch forum.  

 

Thanks.   

 

Huh?  You think USL Pro is a good thing?  Have you watch USL Pro game before?  I have and trust me, it's low quality soccer.  

 

If you don't want set higher standards and want better soccer environment to develop players, then fine, but those who support Canadian soccer want to see better players coming up through ranks need to have higher standards.  

[ted]

Huh?  You think USL Pro is a good thing?  Have you watch USL Pro game before?  I have and trust me, it's low quality soccer. 

 

Maybe it is but it would certainly be better than what we have here in Victoria: PDL. 

 

Why do you think we don't need third division soccer?

[TFC07]

Maybe it is but it would certainly be better than what we have here in Victoria: PDL. 

 

Why do you think we don't need third division soccer?

 

Yes, don't we already have 3rd division soccer in Canada or at least in Ontario with League One?.  

[tmcmurph]

Why does a young player have to start in order to get first team minutes? Substitute minutes are a good opportunity for a young player to show their worth. Having said that though, there isn't a team I can think of on Earth who don't occasionally start a young player over a better first 11 choice player for a variety of reasons. Perhaps there a reason why the Caps can't also do this, but I can't figure out why. These Canadians, IMO, don't seem to be getting a chance.

 

And they do. Russell is coming on as a sub regularly and still getting some starts but to be honest Fernandez has taken that starting role from him fair and square. He has simply been better and now it is up to Russell to take it back. I think he will.

 

You don't sub out the keeper unless he is injured or carded. Carducci got 2 starts in the V's Cup.

 

I'm hoping that more of the players make the game day 18 as that is the next step for them. So far they haven't. Is that the club's fault? Or is the player just not getting it done? You can blame the club all you like but at some point you really need to look at the players role in this. They have to take the spot in practice, reserves and then get into the gameday 18 and when they get their chance in a game to take the spot.

 

Once again back to specifics: Which Canadian players in the club should start/sub ahead/for of the current starters? 

 

Adekugbe over Harvey? 

Alderson over Morales?

Carducci over Ousted?

Teibert over Fernandez?

Clarke over Hurtado, Mattocks, Manneh, Salgado?

 

Teibert is the subbing in regularly and has 9 starts this year so you can't say he hasn't been given a chance.

Adekugbe provides coverage for Harvey who has been playing very well. Same for Carducci / Ousted.

Alderson and Clarke will have the toughest time due to the quality of Morales and Russell also providing coverage for that spot.

Clarke has his work cut out for him because that is one tough group to beat out. In time I think he can.

[football_world]

The way things have gone I'd be ecstatic if the Caps had 2 Canadians starting regularly that were also National teamers. That's how pathetically low the standards have gotten with the way that team has been run.

 

 

I'm for getting Canadian players onto an MLS roster.  However, once they are on the roster, they have to find a way to prove they are capable as a starter.  In the case of Teibert, he is being outperformed right now.  We shouldn't give a starting spot to a Canadian just because he is Canadian.  If every Canadian player that is starting knows they can keep their spot simply because of their nationality regardless of how bad they play, that gives them no incentive to improve!

 

Forcing our Canadians to earn their spot will keep the pressure on them to find a way to improve.  Ultimately, you want to qualify for the World Cup, right?  We won't qualify for the World Cup if the bar is set too low for our national players.  Raise the bar for them and trust that they will find a way to meet it.  They already train with all foreign players so they know what level is expected of them if they want a starting spot.  Thus, they should not be starting if they can't outplay the other foreign players - the fans won't like it, and we are coddling our Canadian players too much.

 

Having said that, I think management with our Canadian MLS teams can give a message to the manager to give minutes to our young Canadian players if the team is winning by 2 goals or more late into the game.  The risk is low if we give minutes to our young Canadian players this way.  Also, give them minutes in Voyageur cup.  Or give them minutes if the team can't make the playoffs.  Or give minutes to them in a friendly.  This is pretty much how any team around the world gives minutes to their young players - you break them in slowly and let them show their worth.  If they can show their worth, then you gradually increase their minutes.

[VWFC]

 

We aren't insulting you Vancouver fans.  Let's get that off our chests.  We love that you support your local pro team... you are doing the RIGHT thing.  We want you to inspire change in YOUR club because it's kinda hard to inspire change in your club as a TFC supporter on the other side of the country.  There should be a banner against Chivas USA denouncing Bustos.  Even TFC fans have a banner for Teal when he comes to town and that was years ago and for MUCH MUCH better reasons. 

 

How do you know we aren't?  That's the problem with the mentality towards the Caps, there's no questions, discussions and very few positive posts like "What can we, as a group, do to send a message to Bustos and the Caps"  Its all "The Caps hate Canada" bullshit.

 

I personally know people who have written to the Caps regarding Bustos.  That's not good enough.  The residency.  Not good enough.  USL Pro.  Not good enough.   

 

We fucking know they don't play Canadians in the first team.  It bothers us MORE than it bothers you.  What do you want from us?  Letters have been written, tickets have not been renewed.  Lets hear details, ideas, discussions.  

 

Its the rhetoric that discredits you guys.  The "Caps hate Canada" comments immediately discredits someone, because they are unable to separate the negatives (Bustos, First team minutes) from the positives (residency, USL, 6 straight U17 players in a row etc), it insults the Vancouver fans who want the same things and it divides this group.  

 

How does that help?   

[finchster]

Caps don't hate Canada. they just don't make Canada a priority. 

[VWFC]

 

Until that happens though, the actions of the club make it look like they don't give a shit about Canadian soccer.

 

Further to my post above, this is exactly what Im talking about.  You know that isn't true because its been pointed out many times that Kerfoot is a big supporter of the CMNT & CWNT and has personally put millions of dollars in to try and help develop it.  It hasn't produced many first team players for the Caps as of today, even though Teibert is the oldest at 21, but the intent is there.  

 

The Caps don't believe in signing players simply because they are Canadian, agree or disagree, the plan is to develop from within.  

 

Point out the flaws, discuss, whatever, but when the rhetoric comes out - they don't give a shit about Canadian soccer - it discredits you.

[maccaliam]

And they do. Russell is coming on as a sub regularly and still getting some starts but to be honest Fernandez has taken that starting role from him fair and square. He has simply been better and now it is up to Russell to take it back. I think he will.

 

You don't sub out the keeper unless he is injured or carded. Carducci got 2 starts in the V's Cup.

 

I'm hoping that more of the players make the game day 18 as that is the next step for them. So far they haven't. Is that the club's fault? Or is the player just not getting it done? You can blame the club all you like but at some point you really need to look at the players role in this. They have to take the spot in practice, reserves and then get into the gameday 18 and when they get their chance in a game to take the spot.

 

Once again back to specifics: Which Canadian players in the club should start/sub ahead/for of the current starters? 

 

Adekugbe over Harvey? 

Alderson over Morales?

Carducci over Ousted?

Teibert over Fernandez?

Clarke over Hurtado, Mattocks, Manneh, Salgado?

 

Teibert is the subbing in regularly and has 9 starts this year so you can't say he hasn't been given a chance.

Adekugbe provides coverage for Harvey who has been playing very well. Same for Carducci / Ousted.

Alderson and Clarke will have the toughest time due to the quality of Morales and Russell also providing coverage for that spot.

Clarke has his work cut out for him because that is one tough group to beat out. In time I think he can.

Carducci I agree, I wouldn't expect any game time. And Teibert losing his spot happens. That's not where I see the problem. no other Canadian has even been given that chance that they can take someone's spot in a game bc they haven't seen the pitch for a single minute. And to say no Canadian has trained well is an unlikely situation, otherwise how did so many play in the Vs cup matches? And, if these Canadians are so far down the depth chart, did the caps start them in the Vs cup just bc they are Canadian? Because according to a few posters on here, that would be sending the wrong message. Or are they already pushing at the door and impressing as I'm pretty sure I recall Robinson saying, but not being given a chance in MLS matches? I assume the Vs cup action was because they wanted to give the players competitive action as it was good for their development and to reward them for efforts in training. And that would work for league play too.

[maccaliam]

  they are unable to separate the negatives (Bustos, First team minutes) from the positives (residency, USL, 6 straight U17 players in a row etc), it insults the Vancouver fans who want the same things and it divides this group.  

 

How does that help?

This is a fair shout. Some negatives don't negate all of the positives.

[VWFC]

I feel as if the Vancouver Fans on the this forum are enabling their management to continue to shun Canadian player development. This attitude displayed on this forum by Vancouver supporters will not cause Vancouver management to change their decision process involving Canadian players in the future. Rather this attitude reinforces decisions such as "encouraging Bustos to attend a Chile camp."

 

 

What enabling attitude?  Please be specific.

 

 

 

I understand you support your team but take some of the effort you've put into this forum and get in touch with the Vancouver front office and let them know you are not happy about he Bustos situation, and frankly unhappy with the lack of Canadian Player development overall when compared to other Canadian clubs. 

 

How do you know we haven't?

 

The 'development' of Canadians is on par or better than the Impact and TFC.  What the Caps lack is 'signing' professional Canadian players.  Seems difficult for a lot of you to distinguish, but there is a massive difference.  Example, the Caps have produced 6 straight U17 players of the year.  This is developing and they do a good job.  The Caps have not signed a professional Canadian since they entered the MLS.  This is bad.     

[ted]

Yes, don't we already have 3rd division soccer in Canada or at least in Ontario with League One?.  

 

Nope. Division three requires paying players a realistic wage not a per diem that pays for lunch and professional standards for facilities and training.

 

L1O and could be a D3 but it is not there yet. Right now it is at the same level as PDL (fourth division- amateur regional league).

[tmcmurph]

Carducci I agree, I wouldn't expect any game time. And Teibert losing his spot happens. That's not where I see the problem. no other Canadian has even been given that chance that they can take someone's spot in a game bc they haven't seen the pitch for a single minute. And to say no Canadian has trained well is an unlikely situation, otherwise how did so many play in the Vs cup matches? And, if these Canadians are so far down the depth chart, did the caps start them in the Vs cup just bc they are Canadian? Because according to a few posters on here, that would be sending the wrong message. Or are they already pushing at the door and impressing as I'm pretty sure I recall Robinson saying, but not being given a chance in MLS matches? I assume the Vs cup action was because they wanted to give the players competitive action as it was good for their development and to reward them for efforts in training. And that would work for league play too.

 

Did you see them in the V's Cup? Which ones jumped out at you and said "this spot is mine"? They looked good with Russell looking the best of the bunch. No real huge standouts. That is to be expected of 17-20 year olds unless you are the anomaly we are all hoping for. The teenager who can start in a men's league. A Canadian version of Manneh for example. Even he with his full speed sprint while dribbling a ball and scoring goals doesn't get to start all games.

 

The impatience with development shows a lot about how little people understand about the difficulty in making the leap from level to level. They will get more chances. It is just a matter of time. I'd like to have 3 starters out of the academy already but it didn't work out that way. We'll see how they develop this year and next year.

[jpg75]

Six straight U17 player of the year awards....Teibert wins the award for 2008 (and 2009), after he was stolen by Vancouver in August of that year from TFC. Then Alderson wins in 2010 (and 2011) having played mostly as a member of Portugal FC of the CSL.

[tmcmurph]

The Caps have not signed a professional Canadian since they entered the MLS.  This is bad.     

 

And they have tried repeatedly to do so but the players said no thanks in one case for LESS money than the Caps were offering.

 

As to why that happens I really don't know. I can see Patrice and Olivier wanting to wrap up their careers near home and family. Good for Montreal. Why is Vancouver being shunned by Canadian players is a valid question. The rain? The fake turf? The field we are forced to play on was voted second worst in MLS by the players last year. Only NE had worse. Portland was ranked very good.

 

I don't know and it drives me nuts.

[tmcmurph]

Six straight U17 player of the year awards....Teibert wins the award for 2008 (and 2009), after he was stolen by Vancouver in August of that year from TFC. Then Alderson wins in 2010 (and 2011) having played mostly as a member of Portugal FC of the CSL.

 

Of course both those players who had other options chose Vancouver. Why? Because the Caps have a first rate development system.