Loss of the National Football Stadium

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

Don't think there is all that much crossover between NFL and MLS fans. The leagues appeal to different demographics. Think I've already explained twice what the alternative to BMO Field could be and it isn't York or Lamport, but something like Empire Field in Vancouver. Find a green field site out in the burbs in the 905 dial code zone and use temporary seating like that to find the the sweet spot in capacity terms where demand meets supply and tickets gain in value then build from there. The TV deal covers the salary cap, so it wouldn't be mission impossible to get that to work, but instead they had to barge their way into a soccer stadium because they couldn't get their heads around it being too big for them but not TFC, because of the Toronto - Rest of the Country disconnect you described quite well in an earlier post.

[Joe MacCarthy]

Agree with much of what you said, but I wouldn't get too cocky about TFC just yet. 

As for the NFL, I'm not talking about the niche following TFC has to fill their stadium, they obviously won't suddenly lose fans to the NFL, totally different market.

I'm talking about coverage.  I see TFC fans often complaining how little coverage they get in the Toronto papers as opposed to the Argos.  I don't read the Toronto papers so i don't know but can you imagine how all encompassing NFL coverage would be.  They'd smother TFC, and with little coverage, it's hard to build new fans.  You've seen how the Leafs and lately the Jays hog the spotlight, add the NFL and growth for TFC can be starved by lack of coverage.

You know as well as i do about the "big league" stigma Toronto media has.  The NFL is the biggest of the "big leagues" and they would eat it up to the detriment of most everything else, I might even be inclined to worry about the Leafs popularity waning and who would have said that five? years ago?

In the Toronto media "wannabe" culture, if it came head to head with the Leafs vs NFL, I honestly wouldn't know who would come out on top.  And that's sad and scary at the same time that a 100 year old tradition could be vulnerable (same for Argos)

[MtlMario]

All I know is if BMO was big enough and an NFL team moved there, nobody(or almost) would be crying about the grass being ruined by football,  because the NFL lovers would be creaming their jeans and not worrying about the grass. 

[Ivan]

I honestly don't think the NFL would affect TFC's coverage at all.  They are basically smothered by the Leafs, Jays and Argos (seems the Argos get more coverage than the Raptors!) now so an NFL team would make very little difference.

And I get it, TSN has to prop up its investment and the sportswriters all grew up covering CFL in Canada.  If anything, the coverage TFC gets now is more negative than positive from the mainstream media.

 

[paul-collins]

NFL in Toronto.  As if.

Rogers has already buried the Toronto market in the NFL's eyes.

Let's talk about actual problems, please, not hair-on-fire hypotheticals.  "Imagine if the Leafs had a summer season and scheduled their games opposite TFC.  That'd hurt, right?"

[Guest]

3 hours ago, Joe MacCarthy said:

We're they going to move?

TFC averaged 20k in their 1st season at BMO. The Argos have an average of 16k. Why would TFC feel the need to move?

[RS]

5 hours ago, MtlMario said:

All I know is if BMO was big enough and an NFL team moved there, nobody(or almost) would be crying about the grass being ruined by football,  because the NFL lovers would be creaming their jeans and not worrying about the grass. 

You can't seriously believe that. TFC fans who are concerned about the CFL's potential effect on BMO Field grass wouldn't suddenly capitulate if it was an NFL team threatening the playing surface.

[Complete Homer]

I'd love to see where this NFL-loving Torontonian stereotype originated. 

There's about 9 million people within 150km of the CN tower. Some might like football, some like CLF, some might even like NFL. Any team that can't fill the stadium with that large of a catch is doing something wrong, it's not the fault of "wannabe Toronto" 

[Joe MacCarthy]

15 hours ago, Ivan said:

And I get it, TSN has to prop up its investment and the sportswriters all grew up covering CFL in Canada.  If anything, the coverage TFC gets now is more negative than positive from the mainstream media.

They certainly didn't, they grew up with a love for the NFL.  What you said might have been true over twenty years ago.

[Joe MacCarthy]

10 hours ago, RS said:

You can't seriously believe that. TFC fans who are concerned about the CFL's potential effect on BMO Field grass wouldn't suddenly capitulate if it was an NFL team threatening the playing surface.

The point is moot, BMO would never be big enough to share, you can say the same about the RC, too small for NFL.  But if it somehow ever got to that point TFC vs NFL, they could complain all they'd want and people would just laugh at them.   That's the power of the NFL.

[pint]

Why are we discussing the NFL in a thread about the national soccer stadium? This theoretical world where Toronto gets an NFL team has nothing to do with the national soccer stadium except for the idea that LT only bought the team that moved in to play nice with the city until he can get a team.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Joe MacCarthy said:

They certainly didn't, they grew up with a love for the NFL.  What you said might have been true over twenty years ago.

 

 

You're kidding right? Over half of TSN's content is on the CFL. Even the Grey Cup made it onto the TSN top 10 events of the year in 2014 over the freaking World Cup.

[Ivan]

2 hours ago, Joe MacCarthy said:

They certainly didn't, they grew up with a love for the NFL.  What you said might have been true over twenty years ago.

I don't agree Joe.  Simmons, Naylor et al all started off covering CFL.  To clarify, I should have said "started their careers" rather than "grew up"

[MtlMario]

13 hours ago, RS said:

You can't seriously believe that. TFC fans who are concerned about the CFL's potential effect on BMO Field grass wouldn't suddenly capitulate if it was an NFL team threatening the playing surface.

What I believe is that there are a lot more TFC/NFL fans than there are TFC/CFL fans,so that would make the so called damage to the turf (if there is any) much more easy to take, don't you think?

[Macksam]

22 hours ago, Joe MacCarthy said:

I can understand that but history says it was never meant to be soccer specific.  How it turned out (in it's own roundabout way) is how it was originally intended.  But we've gone through that debate a million times.

TFC fans, think about this.  If the Argos fail, that leaves this market wide open for the NFL.  Can you honestly tell me with a straight face how the non-stop year round NFL coverage/betting/fantasy leagues et al won't crush what little coverage TFC gets.  And if you get no coverage you start to wither on the vine, and that's what the Argos are fighting now, the past years of neglect, (much of it brought on themselves) and now they have to work ten times as hard to repair the damage if that's even possible.

I wouldn't wish a summer/winter NFL/Leafs market on TFC.  And make no mistake, the NFL is a summer league with the BS hype of the draft and training camps.  I've said it before and I'll say it again you've got a big number of sports reporters in Toronto whose biggest wet dream is to eat the free chicken in an NFL press box, will they be sympathetic to TFC or have them on the radar?

The CFL isn't preventing an NFL team from coming into the market. This place is already wide open for an NFL team. The Argos going down won't fast track and expedite a Toronto NFL franchise.

[Macksam]

 

20 hours ago, Joe MacCarthy said:

You are seriously naive if you don't think the NFL in wannabe Toronto wouldn't be detrimental to TFC, it's not the same as an already established NFL market. You don't think a team in T.O would drive interest up tenfold over what it already is?

Why would they care about the optics of empty seats?  The deal is done, attendance is bad already, the camera tries to avoid it as best they can, just as they have for TFC in the past.  Were the optics bad for TFC?  We're they going to move?

I believe it was you who suggested the Argos try York or Lamport.  The economics won't work in a 10k stadium, maybe they only barely draw above that now but at least they have the ability to host more if something finally catches the imagination of fans.  Why would they move to York or Lamport in a situation that would have them already losing money?

TFC never had "lean years". TFC might have drawn badly on a handful of nights in the past for various reasons like mid week games, bad weather and meaningless CCL games that had no bearing on the final standings. However, the team never consistently drew poorly over consecutive home games, never mind an entire season.

[pint]

39 minutes ago, MtlMario said:

What I believe is that there are a lot more TFC/NFL fans than there are TFC/CFL fans,so that would make the so called damage to the turf (if there is any) much more easy to take, don't you think?

1. TFC and NFL would never share a stadium as an NFL team would require an 80k+ stadium and given the season they play would either be indoors or turf.

2. I don't agree with the premise as those who are vocally against the move would point out that NFL is worse for the field than CFL due to the running game and size of lineman. NFL's only saving grace would be the season does not over lap as much as CFL does but it overlaps at the worst time (late fall)

 

I don't see a scenario where TFC and NFL would share a stadium as the NFL team would actually justify investment in it's own facility.

[Guest]

TFC would never share a stadium with an NFL team. Having 30k in a 80k stadium looks awful and takes away from the atmosphere, which is why so many MLS teams are moving our of Nfl stadiums

[Macksam]

22 hours ago, Joe MacCarthy said:

Replace the word hate with apathy and you are closer to the truth.  And most CFL "hate" to soccer is reactionary to the hate they get from soccer (primarily TFC).  The CFL has more than enough idiots (as does TFC) to embarrass everybody.

The current hate from the Argos crowd could definitely be considered reactionary. However, the CFL hate in general being reactionary? I don't know. Do Caps and Impact fans in Vancouver and Montreal respectively say bad things against the Lions/Als on a consistent basis?

[Joe MacCarthy]

2 hours ago, Macksam said:

Do Caps and Impact fans in Vancouver and Montreal respectively say bad things against the Lions/Als on a consistent basis?

They do not, just a number of TFC fans

[theaub]

My thoughts

- As a SSH for both teams, the Argos have come off as comparably bush league and its not even close.  Failure to return calls for weeks because the voicemail system is always full, no e-mail system for ticket purchases or questions (fun fact: if you try to contact the Argos helpdesk via e-mail on Ticketmaster it actually bounces back because the e-mail address doesn't exist), a complete lack of season ticket benefits etc.  I purchased Grey Cup tickets in June and although I diligently attempted to contact the team at least once per week since then, I only found out where my seat location was last week.  As someone who has seasons for every major Toronto sports team, their customer service is nothing short of a disaster, which is extremely disappointing when they are, frankly, on the fringes of the sports scene in the city.  At this point I can relatively accept being ignored by the Leafs/Raps/Jays reps, but the two where I wouldn't accept it are TFC and the Argos.  I gave up my TFC seasons after 2011 because of it (bought back in this year for a variety of reasons and I will say I have been treated very well), but I would highly doubt I renew my Argos seasons. 

- I will also continue to think the TFC 'hate' of the Argos had/has less to do with the team or their fans than the small number of MSM people (a couple newspaper writers, Norm Kelly etc) who came out like big swinging dicks when the Argos moved across and made it like the Argos would run roughshod over the existing tenants.  This has clearly not been the case (in point: Argos tickets were going pre-fees for $8 USD on Stubhub for Saturday's game...there is not a single ticket on the site for less than $50 USD for the Montreal match this Saturday).  

- I don't fear the viability of the Argos since TSN will prop them up as necessary, but it is quite shocking how little of an impact the move has had.  I would have assumed at the start of the year that the last game, on a Saturday afternoon, with the Ex on, and the Jays out of town, would have been virtually a lock to sell-out.  That the team had an "attendance" of 15K is extremely worrying.  The Argos have spent a lot of money on marketing, but they just...don't offer an inspiring product.  Tailgating without alcohol is not real tailgating (and that it costs nearly 2x as much to park here than it does in Buffalo for a real tailgate is ridiculous) and the team is terrible.  TFC will always have an inherent marketing advantage since its way easier to market kids to a sport they play, but the numbers don't lie...TFC will likely draw 20K+ to every game, and the Argos will likely fail to draw 20K+ to every game outside of the opener.  I will hold out my thoughts on TV ratings until the CFL provides a true local breakdown by market to show me the Argos TV numbers are truly that much better in the GTA.

[pint]

48 minutes ago, theaub said:

My thoughts

- As a SSH for both teams, the Argos have come off as comparably bush league and its not even close.  Failure to return calls for weeks because the voicemail system is always full, no e-mail system for ticket purchases or questions (fun fact: if you try to contact the Argos helpdesk via e-mail on Ticketmaster it actually bounces back because the e-mail address doesn't exist), a complete lack of season ticket benefits etc.  I purchased Grey Cup tickets in June and although I diligently attempted to contact the team at least once per week since then, I only found out where my seat location was last week.  As someone who has seasons for every major Toronto sports team, their customer service is nothing short of a disaster, which is extremely disappointing when they are, frankly, on the fringes of the sports scene in the city.  At this point I can relatively accept being ignored by the Leafs/Raps/Jays reps, but the two where I wouldn't accept it are TFC and the Argos.  I gave up my TFC seasons after 2011 because of it (bought back in this year for a variety of reasons and I will say I have been treated very well), but I would highly doubt I renew my Argos seasons. 

- I will also continue to think the TFC 'hate' of the Argos had/has less to do with the team or their fans than the small number of MSM people (a couple newspaper writers, Norm Kelly etc) who came out like big swinging dicks when the Argos moved across and made it like the Argos would run roughshod over the existing tenants.  This has clearly not been the case (in point: Argos tickets were going pre-fees for $8 USD on Stubhub for Saturday's game...there is not a single ticket on the site for less than $50 USD for the Montreal match this Saturday).  

- I don't fear the viability of the Argos since TSN will prop them up as necessary, but it is quite shocking how little of an impact the move has had.  I would have assumed at the start of the year that the last game, on a Saturday afternoon, with the Ex on, and the Jays out of town, would have been virtually a lock to sell-out.  That the team had an "attendance" of 15K is extremely worrying.  The Argos have spent a lot of money on marketing, but they just...don't offer an inspiring product.  Tailgating without alcohol is not real tailgating (and that it costs nearly 2x as much to park here than it does in Buffalo for a real tailgate is ridiculous) and the team is terrible.  TFC will always have an inherent marketing advantage since its way easier to market kids to a sport they play, but the numbers don't lie...TFC will likely draw 20K+ to every game, and the Argos will likely fail to draw 20K+ to every game outside of the opener.  I will hold out my thoughts on TV ratings until the CFL provides a true local breakdown by market to show me the Argos TV numbers are truly that much better in the GTA.

The part in bold I 100% agree with, guys like Grimes and Kelly really pissed off TFC supporters and started to turn it into something vicious. The intern that is running Kelly's account and tweeted out the stadium with a crude photo shop of everything being blue went too far and for the most part created a much larger divide than had existed previously.

[Ivan]

Yup.  And add Simmons, Naylor , Perkins, Ziccarelli, and all the other Toronto based writers and broadcasters to the list as well.  I have nothing against the Argos (other than their scuttling of the original plan that almost killed off stadium construction in the first place), and the field has held up well so far (albeit with no inclement weather) so in my mind, things have gone well.

But I will never forget the arrogant POS hacks and their condescending comments when this was all in the works.  I try my best to suppress a grin every time Argo attendances are announced.

Hopefully things pick up for Argos, and their fans sake.  A lot of my good buddies are big Argo fans.  

[zeelaw]

To add to Aub and Ivan's point about Argos fans. I was surprised to see so much arrogance coming out of their fans shitting on TFC, Soccer, etc right from the get go.

After the other stadium deal (which I don't know that much about tbh) and the loud, yearly disdian for soccer, they should of came back like a dog with it's tail between it's legs.

My boss is an Argos season seat holder but also a realist, he sees what's going on and understands what the Argos FO is doing.  The Front Office want's to get the millennials going, but at the same time they are ignoring their actual, much older demographic, which prefers to travel by car to the games.  Exhibition place is a mess right now with the construction outside all summer causing issues with the TTC so that's even less of a viable option. Maybe they are pissing off their only fans while searching for potential ones?

[zeelaw]

I've also read an echoing opinion about the CFL becoming too slow, too long, etc.  Good luck telling that to TSN and asking them to have less commercials. Biting the hand...