Loss of the National Football Stadium

[Trillium]

It appears as if MLSE and Mr Leiwcke are looking at altering the National Football Stadium on the grounds of the CNE to be a plastic turf, multi use stadium for Argonauts CFL games and Maple Leafs outdoor hockey games.

I think its important for the Voyageurs to issue some type of a press release, that would indicate;

1. The National Football Stadium does not need a roof for national team women's or men's games.

2. The National Football Stadium should remain a natural grass surface.

3. The National Football Stadium does not need expansion of seating beyond 25,000 seats untill such time as every National Team game is sold out at an average ticket pricing of $50.00 dollars per seat ( 1,250,000.00 gate ).

The press release needs to call on the City of Toronto the titular owners of the facility to recognize its national nature and the original purpose of the venue to host international soccer events.

The Voyageurs as a group need to understand that the Toronto Football Club supporters groups will have little if any influence on MLSE to protect what is and should be the iconic status of the National Football Stadium.

Where do you stand ?

Keep the National Football stadium with grass at under 25k seating with no roof.

or

In favour of return to artificial turf and ground sharing with Toronto Argonauts with CSA released from using the facility for National games, ( men and women ).

[squizz1402635577]

We have a national football stadium? Cool! Is it kinda like BMO Field, our national soccer stadium?

[Lord Bob]

I am in favour of sharing BMO Field with football if it means games are spread around Canada, as they should be. The idea of a single national soccer stadium is anathema to Confederation. Stop drinking the Kook Aid, Trillium.

[Califax]

It should have a roof.

[TFCfan4life]

I'm not in favor of regressing on the natural playing field and sharing the stadium with a sport that might as well use a plow every time it takes the field. Soccer, on anything, but grass is just terrible to watch. The average MLS player already has trouble controlling the ball, giving him the extra bounce that comes with the turf makes it extra **** to watch and play.

Toronto has horrible outdoor game weather. A roof is neeeded to protect against the rain, wind and improve acoustics.

I'm in favor of spreading the games around Canada, but that's not what's for debate here.

I'm never in favor of promoting a sport that keeps us in a bobble and distances ourselves from the rest of the world while harming the beautiful game that the rest of the world competes in and so should we.

Damn Argos, they screwed us when we needed them and now they are back for a handout like the entitled teen bitched they are.

Canada has no professional league and just a handful of teams/stadia that can help us develop our players for the world stage. Corporate greed is up to screwing that up too.

Make what ever press release/petition. I'll sign.

[hamiltonfan]

The CSA, TFC, CFL, Argos, MLSE should be able to share a public stadium without compromising the integrity of either's standards.

Wrong approach IMHO...We should be looking to collaborate. The new stadium in Winnipeg blows BMO out of the water, as does the WIP stadiums in Hamilton and Ottawa. Furthermore, Saskatchewan will see a multi-hundred million dollar stadium build for 2017.

If MLSE comes in a turns a bare boned, tin can stadium into something special we should be pleased at the investment. Lets remember the Argos play nine games at home per year.

Questions we should be asking should be tailored to a partnership (lets not kid ourselves, the CFL has the upper-hand). How can we share a stadium while effectively satisfying individual requirements? How can we assure no football lines during soccer matchs? How can budget to lay down the same synthetic turf used at Wembley? etc...

[Trillium]

We have a national football stadium? Cool! Is it kinda like BMO Field, our national soccer stadium?

Hey I know you call it the Amway Canadian Championship, but I call it the Voyageurs Cup.... as for the National Football Stadium... perhaps some reading from the past would help you get on board with calling it The National Stadium, instead of the TFC stadium with name rights sold to BMO for now .... http://www.canada.com/montrealgazette/news/sports/story.html?id=b884a677-e229-46c0-9cf4-0840df6f3583 , but hey your a journalist so you probably do not care for history.

Too bad you did not choose to expound on your thoughts... plastic turf and Argos or grass and international games ...which do you prefer ?

[squizz1402635577]

See, Trillium, if you actually took the time to properly read what I'd written, you'd have understood that my snarky remark was to do with your reference to it as "football" rather than "soccer", not the stadium's naming rights. Calling it the "national football stadium" (which isn't its designation, by the way) is especially confusing considering you then proceed to rail against the sport that's generally called "football" in this country.

But then, you've never taken the time to properly read what I write before replying to it, so why would you start now?

[Lord Bob]

Admit it, squizz, your a journalist so you probably do not care for history.

[alberta white]

Well If you let cities control facilities why are you be surprised when the Mayor Sh#ts all over you? (He probably considers you euro commine soccer ball kicking pinko liberals kiddie fiddlers as an infestation of BMO, anyway)

Unfortunately when it comes to soccer all that the average Canadian sees is that The men's team stinks, the girls look pretty in red shorts (If Canada truly women's game, the country would be awash with top flight PRO- women's Soccer clubs. One of which would be playing alternate weekends to TFC at BMO so the CFL would get a look in at BMO anyway.)

Ho, and there is no National Sporting League of any true Canada Value other than the CFL (let be honest, the Yanks stole the Stanley cup and the NHL off you years ago)

Canadian business types apparently have a problem with natural grass (Probably because Field turf is a Petroleum Product and the all love oil).

Meanwhile the Rest of the World Looks on shakes it head and walks off...Until some other MLSE type leave enough brown envelopes in a certain PO BOX in Geneva for Canada to get a BID for 2030 though the Vote.

[RS]

Classic squizz, always going around and calling it "the TFC stadium."

[hamiltonfan]

Really impressed with the CSN guy's input in this thread, insightful stuff gents! .....value adding posts would be nice for a change, yall are 0-3 in your posts.

[jpg75]

See, Trillium, if you actually took the time to properly read what I'd written, you'd have understood that my snarky remark was to do with your reference to it as "football" rather than "soccer", not the stadium's naming rights. Calling it the "national football stadium" (which isn't its designation, by the way) is especially confusing considering you then proceed to rail against the sport that's generally called "football" in this country.

But then, you've never taken the time to properly read what I write before replying to it, so why would you start now?

If Trillium can't copy your post into a foreign language translator and then post it word-for-word without cleaning it up then it's not worth reading.

[BrennanFan]

It appears as if MLSE and Mr Leiwcke are looking at altering the National Football Stadium on the grounds of the CNE to be a plastic turf, multi use stadium for Argonauts CFL games and Maple Leafs outdoor hockey games.

Is this actually happening or is Trillium talking out of his trillium?

[shermanator]

I am in favour of sharing BMO Field with football if it means games are spread around Canada, as they should be.

This sums up my feelings on the subject. Is modifying the stadium to suit both MLS and the CFL worse for TFC and national team games? In terms of sightlines behind the goal and the potential for fieldturf, then yes. Other items such as a roof can only benefit fans.

When TFC makes the playoffs, BMO will be packed whether it's configured as a dual purpose stadium or for soccer either way. Fans are bangwagon jumpers no matter the sport.

National team games will continue to be half full (with the exception of the Voyageurs stand) until we make the hex. Until there's consistent sellouts at BMO I think it makes sense to move games around the country.

[Trillium]

See, Trillium, if you actually took the time to properly read what I'd written, you'd have understood that my snarky remark was to do with your reference to it as "football" rather than "soccer", not the stadium's naming rights. Calling it the "national football stadium" (which isn't its designation, by the way) is especially confusing considering you then proceed to rail against the sport that's generally called "football" in this country.

But then, you've never taken the time to properly read what I write before replying to it, so why would you start now?

Geez Squizz next your going to start a movement to rename TFC ( Toronto Football Club ) to become TSC ( Toronto Soccer Club ) of course if you do that then TSC could play at the NSS and you could drop using BMO Field.

All kidding aside ... does it not make your football oriented heart a little frustrated with MSLE to have the Argos ballon launched to get the Public purse to pay for a renovation which will not advance the game of round ball "football".

Hoping you might do some delving maybe call the Minister of Sport he is from Brampton and see if there is any appetite to spend money to help out MLSE.

[Joe MacCarthy]

We are just talking out our petoots until we know for sure what MLSE's intentions are with the Argos. What came out as "news" this week is nothing new.

So far, all we have is conjecture and rumour.

AFAIK, it has never been stated that a conversion from BMO's present turf surface to an artificial surface is imminent. All the reports I've read are that management wants to maintain the turf surface and make it work for both, in case of such an eventuality. Is that possible, who knows? Management seems to think it is.

The Argos likely won't go to BMO unless MLSE buys them. Why would the Argos trade one hostile scheduling environment for another?

In two weeks Rogers will meet with the Buffalo Bills management. Rumours are circulating this is the end of the failed Bills in Toronto series and possibly (IMO) a hiatus for NFL prospects in Toronto. If so, that lends credence to MLSE (37.5% controlled by Rogers) purchasing the Argos.

Personally, I have never considered BMO "The National Soccer Stadium" and am not even sure I would want that bestowed on any facility (even Regina, see New Canadian stadiums thread for the latest news when it is announced) I never really considered Edmonton as the NSS but again that's, JMO.

As for football lines on an artificial surface, most new shared pro facilities (ie Ottawa) don't have permanent lines and the technology is getting better all the time re: water soluble paint.

I read one story that they were looking at spending hundreds of millions on this. It that was to happen BMO would be unrecognizable.

[squizz1402635577]

All kidding aside ... does it not make your football oriented heart a little frustrated with MSLE to have the Argos ballon launched to get the Public purse to pay for a renovation which will not advance the game of round ball "football".

It certainly would be irritating if public funds were used for such a renovation, though I haven't read that this would be the case (which isn't to say it's untrue, it just means I haven't seen it). Do you have a link to a story where it's actually stated that taxpayers, rather than MLSE, would be the ones funding such a renovation, if it happened?

As a soccer fan, of course I want the national teams and my local club to preserve a facility that's soccer-specific, with a natural grass surface (though I also think a roof would be a good idea; I'm not sure where your opposition to that comes from).

That being said -- and this is going to sound heretical to some, but so be it -- I'm also a fan of the CFL, and I'm not comfortable with the idea of the oldest professional club in North America (i.e. the Argonauts) disappearing because they can't find a suitable home.

Does that mean I want them to come in and rip up BMO Field (sorry, "the national soccer stadium"), simply because no one running the team over the past 100+ years has actually been able to figure things out and get the team its own facility? No, not really. But I also get the sense that Tim Leiweke is a "get stuff done" kind of guy, and he's going to make decisions that he believes are in the best interests of the entire MLSE empire, even if it alienates some people along the way.

That doesn't mean soccer fans should take it lying down, or not make a fuss about it.

But of course, as Joe MacCarthy says, we're really all just talking out our backsides for the time being.

[alberta white]

Geez Squizz next your going to start a movement to rename TFC ( Toronto Football Club ) to become TSC ( Toronto Soccer Club ) of course if you do that then TSC could play at the NSS and you could drop using BMO Field.

All kidding aside ... does it not make your football oriented heart a little frustrated with MSLE to have the Argos ballon launched to get the Public purse to pay for a renovation which will not advance the game of round ball "football".

Hoping you might do some delving maybe call the Minister of Sport he is from Brampton and see if there is any appetite to spend money to help out MLSE.

Well you could send something Iambic Pentameter, or Perhaps a regular Poetry style for all the good it would do.

If however you want to do something really Radical that would make MLSE sit up and take notice, I suggest you do the following (TFC supporters groups that is- you can really co-ordinate the floating supporters or soccer mom brigade).

Organise yourself into groups of about 1000 each.

Each groups goes out and choose a team in the Ontario League.

and then follow them for the season.

At least you now they wont F you over.

MLSE will soon start reassessing their bed fellows when they are looing at empty terraces.

Its how AFC Wimbeldon and FC united got going

[Joe MacCarthy]

I suggest you do the following (TFC supporters groups that is- you can really co-ordinate the floating supporters or soccer mom brigade).

I thought supporter's groups hated soccer moms as being beneath them.

Nothing good ever comes from sports franchises being cheapened or lost. Ask Brooklyn, where it's taken over 50 years to recover a greater sense of identity. Soccer fans wishing ill will on the Argos is bad karma and it'll bite you in the ass. Again, soccer fans don't have exclusive claim to that stadium. Did the Argos screw themselves re the stadium? Yup! But they got screwed as well over BMO.

If Toronto screws this up and the Argos die (which some people want) there isn't going to be any NFL team to come in and save the day. That "dream" is looking increasingly dead. And as the old song goes " You don't know what you got til it's gone"

I'd be looking at the synergies between TFC and the Argos. I was reading the comments in a story about this and it's absolutely amazing how ignorant each of the two sides are of the other.

But again, the frustrating part is that we know nothing. I'm just trying to use common sense to build a scenario of what might happen. That's all the fun we can have until we get news.

[Joe MacCarthy]

Ping! The light bulb just came on to how misleading and disingenuous the first post of this thread was. To call it the National Soccer Stadium instead of TFC's stadium is IMO a really cheap and lame way of trying to illicit sympathy from fans other than TFC supporters. For shame!

Seriously, how many NT games were played there this year? Do we need two hands to count? I honestly don't know the number.

[Marc]

If Toronto screws this up and the Argos die (which some people want) there isn't going to be any NFL team to come in and save the day. That "dream" is looking increasingly dead. And as the old song goes " You don't know what you got til it's gone"

The problem is that the people who want the "Argos to die" aren't the pro-NFL crowd. The pro-NFL crowd in Toronto is absolutely indifferent to the Argos. Not in a mean way. But most just don't give a crap - Argos are not on their radar.

So while I too generally agree with the spirit of the old song, in this case it's not much of a driver for synergies or co-operation or whatever. That's where the real tension is here - three groups with very different views, priorities and end-games, and not a lot of common ground in terms of outcomes.

For me at least, the Argos dying scenario is mainly an alarmist counter-reaction to the marginalization of the CFL in Toronto - I get how dropping down on the sports priority list stings, but they're not going to die - but if they were to disappear I think the league would be fine but the Ti-Cats could get very rickety fast.

[Joe MacCarthy]

So while I generally agree with the spirit of the old song myself, in this case it really doesn't apply so it's not much of a driver for synergies or co-operation or whatever.

Not sure what you're getting at. In my mind, the only reason behind the Argos apathy or negativity is that they are exposed by playing in a facility that is too large for them. The same as TFC or the Raptors would be. I believe the Raptors, TFC and the Argos have about the same number of diehard fans who attend the games but where the conundrum begins is that the Raptors and TFC draw flies on TV and the Argos do very well. And according to MLSE projections, if they had purchased them before the new TV deal was signed, the Argos would have been profitable. They would be even moreso now with the new TV contract.

[Joe MacCarthy]

For me at least, the Argos dying scenario is mainly an alarmist counter-reaction to the marginalization of the CFL in Toronto - I get how dropping down on the sports priority list stings, but they're not going to die - but if they were to disappear I think the league would be fine but the Ti-Cats could get very rickety fast.

I agree but I don't see the connection to the Cats. Yes they would lose a historic rival but with the new stadium they (Ti-Cats) have repositioned themselves to be profitable. I too think the league could survive without Toronto.

[Marc]

What I was getting at - albeit obtusely - was the "you don't know what you got til its gone" mentality doesn't apply because the Argos aren't on the radar of the other groups that have a stake in this.

Argo negativity is in part getting exposed in a facility that's too big for them, I agree, but it's also the risk of becoming relegated further down the priority list.

Living according to the whims of the Jays and some major events is livable in a low-rent big stadium situation. But playing in a soccer stadium? Potentially subordinate to the schedule of a soccer team? Games scheduled to ensure the grass survives? Just a shade over ten years ago that would have been a joke. That's not just a risk to the Argos broader status in the Toronto sports-market - real or perceived or imagined - but also could result in administrative headaches down the road that make the Argos life potentially difficult.

The risk is bigger for them than it is the soccer crowd (To me, that's what's funny about the soccer crowd getting pissy about this.)

Re: Hamilton, I might be wrong but I think the Ti-Cats could have a hard time without a regional rival - particular one as hated as Toronto. Hamilton along with some of Niagara is quite culturally distinct from Toronto (and much of southwestern Ontario) but is part and parcel of the Toronto media market. I think not having a CFL team in Toronto could effectively eliminate regional CFL coverage in the general media. In terms of print The Spectator is pretty dominant in Hamilton itself (although how many CFL fans are subscribing to the paper I don't know), but in terms of radio and TV it is very Toronto-focused - Hamilton's radio stations are really micro-marketed and CHCH's coverage is outstanding but its local perception has taken a real beating after a decade of being dicked around and jumping from network to network and format to format. The Ti-Cats fan base is diffused over a wide catchment into Brantford and Cambridge and even out Waterlooish somewhat and those guys aren't getting Hamilton media. Though they get the paper, few in Burlington or Niagara are tuning into the Hamilton stations. Broader regional coverage, in my opinion, is really critical. (Sorry for going off topic)