Loss of the National Football Stadium

[john tv]

Maybe a very good eason to get our name back,once the Argo's fail and take the CFL with them

[MtlMario]

Pitiful just pitiful.

[Free kick]

6 hours ago, jpg75 said:

Even though i'm way more of a TFC fan than Argo fan, and more of an NFL guy than CFL, it would be incredibly sad to see an historic franchise like the Argos fold. Let's hope it doesn't come to that.

Yes.  I think we can all agree with that. 

[pint]

19 hours ago, -Hammer- said:

This was for a Wednesday night game, which also pretty much ended just about any but the most diehard of Ottawa fans from making the trip down and is pretty much the second worst day to have a game next to Tuesday. Espcially if you are trying to push the "Tailgating"

Then add all the streets being blocked off for the Indy this weekend and gruesome heat going into Thunderstorms, it was a recipe for a bad game. That said, just shy of 13,000 is the kinda crowds the Ti-Cats got in Guelph, no question they still have a lot of work to do. I don't think you abandon the location after one bad game, or even one bad season.

It is still a far better location and far more to work with at BMO then at the Dome and still no reports of brutal damage to the pitch. That and even the Montreal Alouette's move wasn't an instantaneous revival within a single year of the franchise. Give it some time.

Side note, I'd be intrigued what the TV ratings were like.

Just to note i drove downtown wednesday night to watch TFC game with some friends... traffic was lighter than most other times I have driven downtown in rush hour. It's all excuses, excuses, excuses so far and the only legit one is that ticket prices are way out of whack

The pitch under near perfect conditions has held up, i have no confidence that it will when the weather is not so co-operative.

[Macksam]

CFL prices are quite high. I remember a while back when I was doing customer service for BMO, I glanced at this individual's credit card bill and saw a $1800 for one(I'm pretty sure it was one...might've said 2 but can't be 100% sure) Calgary Stampeders season ticket....

edit: never mind, it would have been a pair after looking at the seating chart

[shermanator]

24 minutes ago, Macksam said:

CFL prices are quite high. I remember a while back when I was doing customer service for BMO, I glanced at this individual's credit card bill and saw a $1800 for one(I'm pretty sure it was one...might've said 2 but can't be 100% sure) Calgary Stampeders season ticket....

edit: never mind, it would have been a pair after looking at the seating chart

Ticket prices in Calgary have risen significantly since the Flames took ownership of the Stampeders. It's pushing a lot of people out of the stands at McMahon and onto their couches. Of course, a facility in dire of a refresh / rebuild, and the worst recession in 30 years doesn't help either. When single tickets for the best seats are more than a season ticket for Calgary Foothills, I know which one I'm promoting...

On the flip side, getting people onto their couches is only increasing the CFL's revenue from their TV deals, which is paying clubs $4 mil a year each. Not exactly chump change.

[BrennanFan]

On 7/14/2016 at 2:46 PM, jpg75 said:

Even though i'm way more of a TFC fan than Argo fan, and more of an NFL guy than CFL, it would be incredibly sad to see an historic franchise like the Argos fold. Let's hope it doesn't come to that.

I have no such sympathy for the Argos.

When the Argos stabbed the CSA in the back and pulled out of the York U Stadium deal in 2005, they could have killed the resurgence of soccer in this country, killed the U20 World Cup bid, killed any chance of MLS coming to Canada.  Did the Argos care or have any sympathy for Canadian soccer then? Fuck No.  

What goes around comes around.  Do the Argos deserve to die?   

 

[Free kick]

On July 14, 2016 at 3:35 PM, -Hammer- said:

 That and even the Montreal Alouette's move wasn't an instantaneous revival within a single year of the franchise. Give it some time.

 

I thought that the Alouettes move move to Percival Molson stadium was an instant success.  Thats the way i recall it.  There was U2 concert at the Olympic stadium and they got kicked out for one game.  They were drawing lousy crowds at the Big Owe but that one game that they played at Percival Molson stadium was sell out.  And people started clamoring to have more games there.  When that happened they sold out from the get go every game for several years, and set records for consecutive sellouts. 

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

That's the way I remember it as well with the Alouettes. The Rogers Centre is a much better location from a TTC standpoint than BMO Field, so it always looked like wishful thinking to me that people were suddenly going to flock to see the Argos again, if they had not been making the effort in more of a downtown location. Having said that I am still shocked at how poor the Argos crowds have been so far because it was still reasonable to expect a bit of a dead cat bounce effect initially as people went along once to check out what all the hype was about. If the grass holds up OK in October and November, maybe we should be happy that MLSE conned the various layers of government into upgrading the stadium, because I think the canopy has had a positive effect where soccer is concerned by making the east stand a much more pleasant place to watch a game from given that's where the empty seats have always tended to be in TFC broadcasts in years past.

Will be interesting to see how the Grey Cup does at BMO Field later this year. Steve Simmons seems to think they have massively overpriced it and by the looks of the numbers he is probably right:

http://www.torontosun.com/2016/07/14/shocking-grey-cup-ticket-prices-show-argos-are-clueless-about-situation-in-toronto

[Free kick]

6 hours ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

That's the way I remember it as well with the Alouettes. The Rogers Centre is a much better location from a TTC standpoint than BMO Field, so it always looked like wishful thinking to me that people were suddenly going to flock to see the Argos again, if they had not been making the effort in more of 

 

I made this exact same argument about two years ago over on the u sector board with someone who was suggesting it would have the same effect as the Als move out of the Big Owe.   I suggested that their crowd might drop because the location of BMO is so much worst a compared to the Skydome.   For people in the city (especially the north part) its terribly lenghty commute. You have to navigate through traffic jams with tons of intersections and lights and then you have limited exorbitantly priced parking.  Its equally frustrating with public transit bacause you have to transfer off of a subway and onto crowded, slow moving and slow arriving buses or streetcars.  Eitheir option, its and hour and a half to get there.  The only people who have it well is those who can come in with the GO trains.   The ex is a bad location for a stadium

Whereas in Montreal, both of McGill and the Olympic stadium are on Metro line.  The moved to downtown worked in part because it was a more centralized location with access to more entertainment activities for pre and postgame. Its also accessible to a wider demographics of montrealers as opposed, to the economically downtrodden east end where there is nothing to see or do after the game. 

[Trillium]

56 minutes ago, Free kick said:

Whereas in Montreal, both of McGill and the Olympic stadium are on Metro line.  The moved to downtown worked in part because it was a more centralized location with access to more entertainment activities for pre and postgame. Its also accessible to a wider demographics of montrealers as opposed, to the economically downtrodden east end where there is nothing to see or do after the game. 

Clearly you have never been to Bar 99 after an Impact game or a Canada Game, real fans only need cold beer or shots after the game.... 

[1996]

I'm actually very surprised by that attendance of 12000 no excuse for it. I'm not a CFL or NFL fan however, I thought this move to BMO would have revived the Argos right away, I actually thought that the first few years would be easy sells it was year 3 and beyond which would be the tougher sells when the novelty of playing at BMO might wear off. I thought that their season tickets would be at the 16000 mark or so, however was very surprised to hear that they have only sold 7000. Therefore, this is going to be pretty tough to make this thing work, I'm not saying it can't but right now it does not look good. Maybe in the end this team belongs in a different stadium outside Toronto closer to the burbs where I think the majority of Argo fans live, but who knows the only positive thing here is that it is still early so they do have time on their side .

[john tv]

Soccer fans are the real sports fans all others are corporate fans and obviously losers in the near future since the writing is on the wall and corporate world have become to realize that.It is soccer all the way,since singing in the stands and all these supporters groups and an amazing world soccer history will ultimately dominate the hurting Toronto media.  The writing is on the wall and we will finally see what it is like to be first page news.I really wonder how the media is going to fight our well deserved success and who will be the culprits who will still deny us and in fact watching McGowan last night after the Argo debacle nothing was mentioned about these terrible attendance,it was all about golf him and COX and Jerkins,oh ya Coxs on soccer,are you kidding.Enjoy guys and watch the dramatic changes in soccer coverage. 

[-Hammer-]

On 15/07/2016 at 6:04 PM, Free kick said:

I thought that the Alouettes move move to Percival Molson stadium was an instant success.  Thats the way i recall it.  There was U2 concert at the Olympic stadium and they got kicked out for one game.  They were drawing lousy crowds at the Big Owe but that one game that they played at Percival Molson stadium was sell out.  And people started clamoring to have more games there.  When that happened they sold out from the get go every game for several years, and set records for consecutive sellouts. 

Yeah, they did start clamouring for more games there, much like everyone clamoured for games out of the Rogers Centre, although I seem to recall it took more then two games for it to be a consistent sellout.

[Macksam]

13 hours ago, -Hammer- said:

Yeah, they did start clamouring for more games there, much like everyone clamoured for games out of the Rogers Centre, although I seem to recall it took more then two games for it to be a consistent sellout.

The big difference being the people in Montreal wanted more games there after experiencing the other venue first. People over here wanted out of the Rogers Centre without first testing BMO out. Now, Argos fans are left dealing with the other implications (outdoors, harder to get to, etc) after the fact.

[-Hammer-]

4 minutes ago, Macksam said:

The big difference being the people in Montreal wanted more games there after experiencing the other venue first. People over here wanted out of the Rogers Centre without first testing BMO out. Now, Argos fans are left dealing with the other implications (outdoors, harder to get to, etc) after the fact.

That is fair, however I don't think the differences between Rogers and the Big O and Percival Molson and BMO are overwhelmingly pronounced.

[Macksam]

2 hours ago, -Hammer- said:

That is fair, however I don't think the differences between Rogers and the Big O and Percival Molson and BMO are overwhelmingly pronounced.

I agree with that 100%. Both situations have the exact same components, teams moving from huge domed stadiums to smaller outdoor venues. The one big component that is different, which will probably end up killing the Argos is where the favourable location lies. Others here have said that Molson stadium is a better location than Olympic stadium. It's unfortunate how the opposite is true for the Argos situation.

[to70]

I don't get this argument that BMO field is in a bad location. For most modes of transportation(other than subway) it's better than Rogers centre. I drive to most TFC games and don"t have too much trouble getting in and out of games(as long as you know the area) and parking cost is reasonable($10.00 to 15.00) and there is plenty of it. I've gotten there using the GO train Dufferin bus and Bathurst streetcar. I have friends who to the games from Woodbridge and have no complaints about the location.

[-Hammer-]

20 hours ago, to70 said:

I don't get this argument that BMO field is in a bad location. For most modes of transportation(other than subway) it's better than Rogers centre. I drive to most TFC games and don"t have too much trouble getting in and out of games(as long as you know the area) and parking cost is reasonable($10.00 to 15.00) and there is plenty of it. I've gotten there using the GO train Dufferin bus and Bathurst streetcar. I have friends who to the games from Woodbridge and have no complaints about the location.

I'm inclined to agree with this, I think barring exceptional circumstances (like the Ex or the Indy) BMO isn't that hard to get to. Also, by saying BMO is hard to get to for the Argos, you kind of are also saying TFC is hamstrung attendance wise too by the location.

Now an argument can be made a good portion of the Lakeshore West corridor is more inclined towards Hamilton and the Ti-Cats then Toronto and the Argos and that TFC sees more success because of this. However, I think that demographic argument is hard to make without data to back it up.

[Marc]

I don't think the "hard to get to angle" is in comparison to TFC, but in comparison to the Skydome.  If I had to choose one to get to, it would be Skydome every time.  If I'm a fairweather Argos fan, that's definitely a consideration.

[Free kick]

If you live in the lakeshore corridor out in the west end or east end, you are fine.  Getting to BMO field is pretty easy and relatively quick.   Those who have it rough are those who live in the city and have to come down from anywhere north of (approx) midtown whereby you have to navigate through city traffic or (if comming by public transit) have to transfer onto a streetcar/bus.   Its an hour and a half each direction in that case.  Its strange in that sence.  I have tried very many options over the years. And i have even discovered that comming in from Mississauga is much much better and faster than coming down from the north end.  The problem with this city is that there is only one freeway access to downtown (the dvp + Gardiner) and it always either clogged up or closed on weekends.  

The ex has never been easily accissible from inside the city.  

[Free kick]

9 hours ago, -Hammer- said:

I'm inclined to agree with this, I think barring exceptional circumstances (like the Ex or the Indy) BMO isn't that hard to get to. Also, by saying BMO is hard to get to for the Argos, you kind of are also saying TFC is hamstrung attendance wise too by the location.

 

I think its because you are comming in from Hamilton.   Thats kind of what i am saying, yes, i believe their TFC attendance is actually hamstrung by location. Its a testament to how strong the pro soccer support is given what they have been able to get attendance despite the location.  It would be even higher if BMO was located elsewhere in my opinion.  Switch location with the Rogers centre and i believe soccer avg attendance rises by 5k. You could probably see the same uptick had they build it in downsview or at Varsity which were other venues in consideration.

For years prior to BMO field opening, we had heard of declining attendance at the CNE in august & sept.  Its pretty obvious to me why thats the case, i went once and never went back because i never wanted to put up with the excessively cowded and slow moving busses and streetcars in 30 degree heat. And have to face line up after lineup at either transit stops or CNE entrance. You would nt even think of driving there for the CNE given the limited and costly parking. 

 

Ps.: it was faster, more efficient and more pleasant getting to Tim Hortons field to see those pan am soccer matches than it is getting to BMO fields at the ex.   In otherwords, i would be better off if TFC relocated to Hamilton.

[Macksam]

On July 14, 2016 at 2:46 PM, jpg75 said:

Even though i'm way more of a TFC fan than Argo fan, and more of an NFL guy than CFL, it would be incredibly sad to see an historic franchise like the Argos fold. Let's hope it doesn't come to that.

The only way the Argos get saved is by building a new fan base through targeting college kids and or young families. Considering both York and U of T don't look like options any longer, I don't see that happening on the college front. As for young families, no municipality is going to fork over the cash to build a suburban arena for them so that's a no go either.

Because grassroots football is very thin over here (and Canada in general), the sport doesn't have a passionate following amongst the city's populace for a CFL team to draw a significant fan base from. An NFL team could work because of its big league status and people in the GTA do claim to be "NFL" fans despite not being actual being fans of the sport....the same as all the Bluejays' fanbase. 

[-Hammer-]

16 hours ago, Macksam said:

Because grassroots football is very thin over here (and Canada in general), the sport doesn't have a passionate following amongst the city's populace for a CFL team to draw a significant fan base from. An NFL team could work because of its big league status and people in the GTA do claim to be "NFL" fans despite not being actual being fans of the sport....the same as all the Bluejays' fanbase. 

I wouldn't say Canada in general. It's certainly not to the same level as the States but certain locales like most of Western Canada, London, Guelph, Hamilton, Montreal and of course Quebec City have been pushing better and better programs. Fully agree though in Toronto, the grassroots are thin. The Varsity Blues have been the joke of the CIS since 95 and York hasn't been much better.

As far as the NFL, I don't think truer words have been spoke about Toronto NFL "Fans" but it's kinda mute anyways. The NFL isn't going to put a team so close to Buffalo, with no suitable stadium, no individual owner (corporate ownership not allowed) who isn't willing to pay the 2 Billion required to get the team started up and a new stadium built (as public money ain't coming down any time soon), in a market that has shown luke warm support (at best) for every game they've held there, who's proven (so far) that they don't care about their own local Football and would screw the CFL, the only effective league they can draw matured talent from and who they often partner and deal with.

As far as they Jays, there are some diehard, true fans in the area...but as a whole, you are right. I also wouldn't exactly call the Jays an unqualified success. Yes the last three years have been good to them, but the Window is closing on the team and the wheels of the band wagon are starting to squeak.

[Yohan]

More on link

http://www.torontosun.com/2016/08/20/struggling-argos-fall-to-eskimos-46-23

Quote

 

ATTENDANCE WOES REMAIN A CONCERN

The Argos haven’t given their fans anything to rally around this season. The Boatmen’s new management team has done nothing to fire up support and, not surprisingly, no one is showing up at BMO Field.

When the second half of the season got under way on Saturday, there couldn’t have been more than 5,000 people in the stands. Attendance would be announced at 15,157, a number immediately met with incredulity along media row, though it did seem to exceed, at least to the naked eye, that mid-July Ottawa Redblacks debacle.

Pre-game, the much-hyped tailgate experience was as appealing as stale ale. No atmosphere, no buzz, no telling how low this first season at BMO will reach with five home dates now in the books and basically one remaining game left with any relevance — a Sept. 11 visit by Hamilton.

Outside of the season opener against the Ticats, none of the following four games came close to drawing 20,000.

You must now wonder how much money this franchise will end up in the red, perhaps reaching $20 million when one considers the high price of doing business at BMO.