Obinna Posted November 23, 2023 Share Posted November 23, 2023 (edited) I wanted to have a thread dedicated to this. I don't think anyone would argue USA and Mexico are 1 & 2 and I am not really looking to debate or discuss who is 1 & 2. What I am interested in is... who is 3? Is there a clear 3? If so, is that 3rd team Canada? Certainly felt like it heading into the World Cup and even right up until the NL finals, but with the QF exit at the Gold Cup that followed and now failure to get back to the Nations League semi finals....I think it really opens up the debate (if it wasn't opened up alread). Here is a breakdown of the results from teams who (I believe) have a legitimate claim to being a top 3 team in this region. If anyone notices an error below please let me know.. I started at 2019 as that was the beginning of the NL era. Cheers! Canada 1 x World Cup participant 1 x Gold Cup Semi-Finalist 2 x Gold Cup Quarter-Finalist 1 x Nations League Finalist (2nd) 2019 QF Gold Cup 2021 SF Gold Cup 2022 World Cup participants 2023 2nd Nations League 2023 QF Gold Cup Costa Rica 1 x World Cup participant 3 x Gold Cup Quarter-Finalist 1 x Nations League Semi-Finalist (4th) 2019 QF Gold Cup 2019 4th Nations League 2021 QF Gold Cup 2022 World Cup participants 2023 QF Gold Cup Panama 1 x Gold Cup Finalist (2nd) 2 x Nations League Semi-Finalist (4th) + unknown 1 x Gold Cup Quarter-Finalist 2019 QF Gold Cup 2022 World Cup DNP 2023 4th Nations League 2023 2nd Gold Cup *2024 SF Nations League Jamaica 2 x Gold Cup Semi-Finalist 1 x Gold Cup Quarter-Finalist 1 x Nations League Semi-Finalist (unknown) 2019 SF Gold Cup 2021 QF Gold Cup 2022 World Cup DNP 2023 Gold Cup SF *2024 SF Nations League Edited November 23, 2023 by Obinna GasPed, johnyb and Kent 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shway Posted November 23, 2023 Share Posted November 23, 2023 Currently...today is different from historically (which could play on some peoples minds) But I'll go with today. #1 USA (no debate needed) . . . #2 Mexico . #3 Jamaica....#4 Canada....#5 Panama . #6 Honduras #7 Costa Rica USA is a clear number 1...nobody is touching them for a good while (imo) Mexico is #2 right now, but that could easily change based on next year's performances. Jamaica is ahead based on performance trends, but it could easily change between Canada and Panama depending on results. Same thing goes for Honduras and Costa Rica. Obinna 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kent Posted November 23, 2023 Share Posted November 23, 2023 I appreciate all the results laid out like that. I don't think there is a clear 3rd best. Certainly not as clear a top 3 as it was when Costa Rica had their golden generation. I agree with the teams you have at that tier though. Canada, Jamaica, and Panama, are definitely tier 2, and depending on how liberal you are with your tier, Honduras and Costa Rica could make it in there too. Since you didn't do Honduras, and I am curious. 2019 SF Nations League (3rd) 2021 QF Gold Cup OK, looks like that's about it for them. If I absolutely had to definitively rank them, I would probably say USA, Mexico, Panama, Jamaica, Canada, Costa Rica, Honduras, at this particular moment. Before Tuesday's game I would have had Canada ahead of Jamaica, and I'm not sure which between Panama and Canada I would put first, but probably Canada. The Real Marc and Obinna 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingston Posted November 23, 2023 Share Posted November 23, 2023 I see the US and Mexico as the top two as they have been for a long time. During our WCQ, I would have said that Canada had joined them and made it a top three. I fully expected that we would continue at about that level going forward where we expect to beat everyone except sometimes the US and Mexico. Unfortunately, that has proven not to be the case. We are now back in a pack with teams like Jamaica, Panama, and Costa Rica. I don't think it's possible to pick a solid #3. The teams in pack are simply too close and will tend to beat or lose to each other on any given day. As, for example, just now when both Canada and Jamaica managed to beat each other on the road and lose at home. Obinna 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watchmen Posted November 23, 2023 Share Posted November 23, 2023 (edited) I think teams 3-7 will end up being a bit cyclical, depending on which players they have at the time and which stage of their careers they're at. Costa Rica and Honduras are down right now, but I'd expect them to bounce back. This seems to be the pattern for most of them, with the actual exception being Canada. The team has gotten itself in to the mix, it's now just a matter of staying there. Edited November 24, 2023 by Watchmen Obinna, BearcatSA and Shway 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shway Posted November 24, 2023 Share Posted November 24, 2023 I don't want to sound like I'm partial to Jamaica, but I just think what they are building over there is only going to get better and stronger. With the increase in WC spots, it will greatly influence a lot of quality additions to that team which could push them to join the #2 conversation nvm the #3. For Canada, and Panama there's not much in the pipeline to get excited about outside of the great talent that is there now, and can they go to elite levels. RJB, The Real Marc, Obinna and 2 others 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obinna Posted November 24, 2023 Author Share Posted November 24, 2023 15 minutes ago, Shway said: I don't want to sound like I'm partial to Jamaica, but I just think what they are building over there is only going to get better and stronger. With the increase in WC spots, it will greatly influence a lot of quality additions to that team which could push them to join the #2 conversation nvm the #3. For Canada, and Panama there's not much in the pipeline to get excited about outside of the great talent that is there now, and can they go to elite levels. I respect that you lead off with that. I think you have a good point and it may be less of a bias and more of you knowing the pool better than most. From what I can see, there are a LOT of young promising players in the pipeline for Jamaica, nearly all of which are British. You are the Jamaican expert amongst us, but I feel you will agree with that. I look at their teenage prospects and our teenage prospects and it's very clear which country has more potential in that area. Many of these players have caps too, so it's not a case of trying to recruit these guys - they are in the pool already. Toss in the unexpected commitment from someone like Nelson or Greenwood and things could get interesting. And maybe people don't want to hear it - but a good Jamaica is good for the region. Ditto Panama. This is what is said about Canada too, especially by American fans. I think Costa Rica and Honduras will always be up there despite ebbs and flows, but having Jamaica, Panama and Canada show some consistency just makes this region deeper and better. Shway, Watchmen and costarg 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
costarg Posted November 24, 2023 Share Posted November 24, 2023 8 minutes ago, Obinna said: I respect that you lead off with that. I think you have a good point and it may be less of a bias and more of you knowing the pool better than most. From what I can see, there are a LOT of young promising players in the pipeline for Jamaica, nearly all of which are British. You are the Jamaican expert amongst us, but I feel you will agree with that. I look at their teenage prospects and our teenage prospects and it's very clear which country has more potential in that area. Many of these players have caps too, so it's not a case of trying to recruit these guys - they are in the pool already. Toss in the unexpected commitment from someone like Nelson or Greenwood and things could get interesting. And maybe people don't want to hear it - but a good Jamaica is good for the region. Ditto Panama. This is what is said about Canada too, especially by American fans. I think Costa Rica and Honduras will always be up there despite ebbs and flows, but having Jamaica, Panama and Canada show some consistency just makes this region deeper and better. Great point, and also need to mention the Jamaicans are being formed in the UK as opposed to our youth who are stuck with Olivieri types at all levels and clubs. phresh, Obinna and Shway 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingston Posted November 24, 2023 Share Posted November 24, 2023 10 hours ago, Shway said: With the increase in WC spots This is also a good point to raise. It used to be that top three in CONCACAF was critical because that got you into the World Cup. Now it's really top six that matters. I guess the recent bout of inflation affects everything. Obinna and Cadeau 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kent Posted November 24, 2023 Share Posted November 24, 2023 7 minutes ago, Kingston said: This is also a good point to raise. It used to be that top three in CONCACAF was critical because that got you into the World Cup. Now it's really top six that matters. I guess the recent bout of inflation affects everything. I can't remember, is it for sure top 6? For 2026 we've got 3 spots plus 3 for the hosts. Is CONCACAF getting a full 6 spots for 2030? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingston Posted November 24, 2023 Share Posted November 24, 2023 29 minutes ago, Kent said: I can't remember, is it for sure top 6? For 2026 we've got 3 spots plus 3 for the hosts. Is CONCACAF getting a full 6 spots for 2030? Yes, that is my understanding that we now have six spots permanently. Kent 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
narduch Posted November 24, 2023 Share Posted November 24, 2023 Plus a half spot no? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kent Posted November 24, 2023 Share Posted November 24, 2023 1 hour ago, narduch said: Plus a half spot no? Some fraction of a spot. It might be a third now. 2 teams qualify from a 6 team playoff I believe (CONCACAF, CONMEBOL, UEFA, AFC, CAF, OFC, + host confederation). narduch 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watchmen Posted November 24, 2023 Share Posted November 24, 2023 On 11/23/2023 at 11:33 AM, Obinna said: I wanted to have a thread dedicated to this. I don't think anyone would argue USA and Mexico are 1 & 2 and I am not really looking to debate or discuss who is 1 & 2. What I am interested in is... who is 3? Is there a clear 3? If so, is that 3rd team Canada? Certainly felt like it heading into the World Cup and even right up until the NL finals, but with the QF exit at the Gold Cup that followed and now failure to get back to the Nations League semi finals....I think it really opens up the debate (if it wasn't opened up alread). Here is a breakdown of the results from teams who (I believe) have a legitimate claim to being a top 3 team in this region. If anyone notices an error below please let me know.. I started at 2019 as that was the beginning of the NL era. Cheers! Canada 1 x World Cup participant 1 x Gold Cup Semi-Finalist 2 x Gold Cup Quarter-Finalist 1 x Nations League Finalist (2nd) 2019 QF Gold Cup 2021 SF Gold Cup 2022 World Cup participants 2023 2nd Nations League 2023 QF Gold Cup Costa Rica 1 x World Cup participant 3 x Gold Cup Quarter-Finalist 1 x Nations League Semi-Finalist (4th) 2019 QF Gold Cup 2019 4th Nations League 2021 QF Gold Cup 2022 World Cup participants 2023 QF Gold Cup Panama 1 x Gold Cup Finalist (2nd) 2 x Nations League Semi-Finalist (4th) + unknown 1 x Gold Cup Quarter-Finalist 2019 QF Gold Cup 2022 World Cup DNP 2023 4th Nations League 2023 2nd Gold Cup *2024 SF Nations League Jamaica 2 x Gold Cup Semi-Finalist 1 x Gold Cup Quarter-Finalist 1 x Nations League Semi-Finalist (unknown) 2019 SF Gold Cup 2021 QF Gold Cup 2022 World Cup DNP 2023 Gold Cup SF *2024 SF Nations League Started thinking about how Canada declared themselves kings of CONCACAF after topping the Ocho and how CONNEMBOL fans have considered WC qualifying as a true measurement of the region, and then wondered how CONCACAF actually looked with this measurement. Realize it's historical more than current (except for the Ocho) but the winners of the Hex/Ocho since its 1998 creation: US - 3 (2006, 2010, 2014) Mexico - 2 (1998, 2018) Canada - 1 (2022) Costa Rica - 1 (2002) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kacbru Posted November 24, 2023 Share Posted November 24, 2023 14 minutes ago, Watchmen said: Started thinking about how Canada declared themselves kings of CONCACAF after topping the Ocho and how CONNEMBOL fans have considered WC qualifying as a true measurement of the region, and then wondered how CONCACAF actually looked with this measurement. Realize it's historical more than current (except for the Ocho) but the winners of the Hex/Ocho since its 1998 creation: US - 3 (2006, 2010, 2014) Mexico - 2 (1998, 2018) Canada - 1 (2022) Costa Rica - 1 (2002) It would be interesting to do a ranking of top three placements across the hex/Ocho, or a 6 points for 1st, 5 for 2nd, etc. across all of them. Watchmen and Obinna 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stoppage Time Posted November 25, 2023 Share Posted November 25, 2023 On present form, USA/Mexico, Panama/Jamaica, Canada, Costa Rica. You might even be able to trade the first and second ranked groups. We have some serious work to do! Let's begin by playing each player in their best position. For example, Davies needs to be at LB with licence to get forward if a good opportunity presents itself. Bayern thinks so and who are we to argue? No more hero ball! Obinna and costarg 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watchmen Posted November 25, 2023 Share Posted November 25, 2023 4 hours ago, kacbru said: It would be interesting to do a ranking of top three placements across the hex/Ocho, or a 6 points for 1st, 5 for 2nd, etc. across all of them. For the Hex: 6 pts for 1st, 5 for 2nd, etc For the Ocho: 8 pts for 1st, 7 for 2nd, etc Table lists their place of finish. Average is their final placement in the standings. 1998 2002 2006 2010 2014 2018 2022 Total Avg Place Mexico 1 2 2 2 4 1 2 35 2.0 US 2 3 1 1 1 5 3 33 2.3 Costa Rica 4 1 3 4 2 2 4 29 2.9 Honduras 4 3 3 4 8 15 4.4 Panama 6 5 3 5 9 4.8 Canada 6 1 9 3.5 Jamaica 3 5 6 6 8 5.0 El Salvador 5 5 7 6 5.7 Trinidad & Tobago 6 4 6 6 6 5.5 Guatamala 5 2 5.0 kacbru, Kent, costarg and 1 other 2 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stryker911 Posted November 25, 2023 Share Posted November 25, 2023 I think there is no doubt that talent wise we are certainly top 3. Any outside observer when looking at the rosters would come to that same conclusion. Our main problem has and appears that will continue to be execution and coaching. In this case. We likely fall somewhere between 8-10 in the region. Unfortunately, due to these massive discrepancies it is a mixed bag of results and we truly can be considered anywhere from 3 to 7th best in the region. Obinna, Stoppage Time and costarg 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obinna Posted November 25, 2023 Author Share Posted November 25, 2023 5 minutes ago, Watchmen said: For the Hex: 6 pts for 1st, 5 for 2nd, etc For the Ocho: 8 pts for 1st, 7 for 2nd, etc Table lists their place of finish. Average is their final placement in the standings. 1998 2002 2006 2010 2014 2018 2022 Total Avg Place Mexico 1 2 2 2 4 1 2 35 2.0 US 2 3 1 1 1 5 3 33 2.3 Costa Rica 4 1 3 4 2 2 4 29 2.9 Honduras 4 3 3 4 8 15 4.4 Panama 6 5 3 5 9 4.8 Canada 6 1 9 3.5 Jamaica 3 5 6 6 8 5.0 El Salvador 5 5 7 6 5.7 Trinidad & Tobago 6 4 6 6 6 5.5 Guatamala 5 2 5.0 Crazy how big of a gap there was for Canada. No wonder some American fans looked at us like we were nuts when the whole "Kings of Concacaf" became a thing. Even more crazy that we finished 6th, missed out for an eternity, then came back and finished 1st lol costarg 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kent Posted November 25, 2023 Share Posted November 25, 2023 14 minutes ago, Obinna said: Crazy how big of a gap there was for Canada. No wonder some American fans looked at us like we were nuts when the whole "Kings of Concacaf" became a thing. Even more crazy that we finished 6th, missed out for an eternity, then came back and finished 1st lol Reminded me of Ricky Bobby. If you're not first, you're last! nolando 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watchmen Posted November 25, 2023 Share Posted November 25, 2023 11 minutes ago, Obinna said: Crazy how big of a gap there was for Canada. No wonder some American fans looked at us like we were nuts when the whole "Kings of Concacaf" became a thing. Even more crazy that we finished 6th, missed out for an eternity, then came back and finished 1st lol Even finishing as high as Canada did in the final table is a bit skewed - they finished 1st in the year that got them 8 points. Any other year would have been 6 and they'd have finished below Jamaica. Other things of interest: - It's quite the drop off after Costa Rica at 3. - I really thought there had been a few more teams that had at least qualifed for the Hex, but no just 10 countries have ever done it. - I thought T&T would be higher, but despite Warner's efforts to get them to the Hex they really didn't much once there. Obinna and kacbru 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MtlMario Posted November 27, 2023 Share Posted November 27, 2023 On 11/24/2023 at 8:10 AM, Kent said: I can't remember, is it for sure top 6? For 2026 we've got 3 spots plus 3 for the hosts. Is CONCACAF getting a full 6 spots for 2030? I seem to recall Mt. Vic saying in a interview that we had 6 spots plus a chance for 2 more ( can not recall how). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watchmen Posted November 27, 2023 Share Posted November 27, 2023 48 minutes ago, MtlMario said: I seem to recall Mt. Vic saying in a interview that we had 6 spots plus a chance for 2 more ( can not recall how). That's just for 2026. 2030 will be 6 spots plus 1 additional chance. MtlMario 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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