Whitecaps Off Season 2017-2018

[harrycoyster]

 

[saladroit]

Just a rumour at the moment, and I hope it stays that way.

Felipe would be a great pickup, but losing Parker isn't worth that

EDIT:

 

[toontownman]

That would be a simply rank trade 4 years too late for Felipe. Parker is easily our second best centre back in the least. 

Sounds like a Vancouver Boardroom type of trade. "Well we brought Henry in. Isn't good enough. What do you mean squad depth? We did well last year! If you stand still in the transfer market you move backwards? What does that even mean? Get back to polishing those turds we already pushed the boat out for."

[kmouseyc]

This better just be rumors, we can get way more for Parker.

[Bison44]

Is Parker is in his last year of his contract?  Even if he is, dont they have a lot of time to work on this before they give up on negotiations and trade him?  

[saladroit]

 

[kmouseyc]

Parker is a player that will give you return no matter. whitecaps front office  get the deal done! Can not let a Parker go. Pay Him!

[Bison44]

Well what does a good defender get these days? Beita, Moor and morrow are all around 250.  Waston is closer to 400, Harvey and Edgar were getting 180.  If he is asking for 250, sign those papers as quick as you can.  but maybe he might be wanting to match Waston.  

[Unnamed Trialist]

The idea that the Caps are so fundamentally unethical that they cannot recognize a basic principle in player-club relationships is very sad. "Sad", being an understatement. 

Any club who signs a player with lower expectations and finds they do the job, should offer them unilaterally a contract extension and salary increase. Some might say that is too generous, but consider this: Parker is really the only player clearly in this situation at the club. As I have posted many times, in months gone by.

Parker is essentially on his USL salary plus a bit still, and we have gotten amazing service from him. You pay him properly, what I am hearing here, over 200 and more like 250 a year with options to improve that, and bonuses, and you have set yourself up with a guy who can make a lengthy career at the club. 

Since I have their cheap and low-class refusal to not properly compensate Camilo still strong in my memory, what happens here does make a difference. 

I understand, that said, that he may still want to be on a US team where he might get more recognition for his play and even a likely deserved USMNT call-up.

[The Beaver]

45 minutes ago, Bison44 said:

Well what does a good defender get these days? Beita, Moor and morrow are all around 250.  Waston is closer to 400, Harvey and Edgar were getting 180.  If he is asking for 250, sign those papers as quick as you can.  but maybe he might be wanting to match Waston.  

I love Parker, but he's not nearly as dominant as Waston, so I'd be reluctant to pay him more than 250. I think we need him around this year, especially because Waston will be away for WC.  Like the idea of Felipe, but giving up Parker seems too great a cost at this point.

[The Beaver]

24 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

The idea that the Caps are so fundamentally unethical that they cannot recognize a basic principle in player-club relationships is very sad. "Sad", being an understatement. 

Any club who signs a player with lower expectations and finds they do the job, should offer them unilaterally a contract extension and salary increase. Some might say that is too generous, but consider this: Parker is really the only player clearly in this situation at the club. As I have posted many times, in months gone by.

Parker is essentially on his USL salary plus a bit still, and we have gotten amazing service from him. You pay him properly, what I am hearing here, over 200 and more like 250 a year with options to improve that, and bonuses, and you have set yourself up with a guy who can make a lengthy career at the club. 

Since I have their cheap and low-class refusal to not properly compensate Camilo still strong in my memory, what happens here does make a difference. 

I understand, that said, that he may still want to be on a US team where he might get more recognition for his play and even a likely deserved USMNT call-up.

"Unethical" might be reaching, no?  "Unwise" or "strategically naïve" or maybe "self-defeating" all seem applicable here. To be clear, it is absolutely stupid for a club to pay more for a player than a) That player deserves and b.) The club can afford.  But playing this game of trying to get away with paying somebody like Parker less than he deserves will bite them in the ass, over and again.  Now, we have no idea what Parker is asking for.  300K? 350K? If I was running the Caps, I'm not sure I'd pay him more than 250K. 

[Unnamed Trialist]

31 minutes ago, The Beaver said:

"Unethical" might be reaching, no?  "Unwise" or "strategically naïve" or maybe "self-defeating" all seem applicable here. To be clear, it is absolutely stupid for a club to pay more for a player than a) That player deserves and b.) The club can afford.  But playing this game of trying to get away with paying somebody like Parker less than he deserves will bite them in the ass, over and again.  Now, we have no idea what Parker is asking for.  300K? 350K? If I was running the Caps, I'm not sure I'd pay him more than 250K. 

I call it unethical in strictly football terms. If I sign a contract to do a job for a price, I don't ask for more. The contract stands. Simple as that.

In football there is another ethic, and almost all clubs value it and apply it. Any player who signs low and you value, you offer a renewal to, to keep him happy. Also to compensate services rendered at lower than real value salary. It has nothing to do with whether there is another as good as him for the same price out there somewhere. Few teams ever just change to change. Quite the opposite. Most keep, and pay more as they go. Within reasonable limits, of course, but you keep. And strive to keep, whenever possible. And even more so when the guy is a starter, the coach has clearly demonstrated he believes in him, and you are looking to build.

That is a standard principle, and yes, it has a lot to do with honourable practice, and nothing to do with contracts being honoured. So that is why I say it is ethical, it is the right thing to do when you put principles into practice.

[The Beaver]

7 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

I call it unethical in strictly football terms. If I sign a contract to do a job for a price, I don't ask for more. The contract stands. Simple as that.

In football there is another ethic, and almost all clubs value it and apply it. Any player who signs low and you value, you offer a renewal to, to keep him happy. Also to compensate services rendered at lower than real value salary. It has nothing to do with whether there is another as good as him for the same price out there somewhere. Few teams ever just change to change. Quite the opposite. Most keep, and pay more as they go. Within reasonable limits, of course, but you keep. And strive to keep, whenever possible. And even more so when the guy is a starter, the coach has clearly demonstrated he believes in him, and you are looking to build.

That is a standard principle, and yes, it has a lot to do with honourable practice, and nothing to do with contracts being honoured. So that is why I say it is ethical, it is the right thing to do when you put principles into practice.

I totally get what you are saying--and do not disagree--but I am suggesting that the reason to do everything you suggest in terms of player relations and player retention ALSO makes strategic sense for a club.  It is not unlike any workplace: retaining excellent employees is critical, and if that means paying them bonuses or given them pay raises even if their contract says you need not do either of those things, is just good and smart business.  I am an employer. I have ten employees. I work damn hard to keep my best people happy BECAUSE it is in my best interests and because it is the right thing to do. The real struggle comes when somebody really good wants a pay raise that is simply not possible. Sometimes you have to lose good people.  That's okay.  If Parker is looking for 350K, I am not sure I'd be able to justify that raise. Maybe the Caps are unethical, I don't know.  I sort of doubt it.  Cheap, yeah.  But likely not unethical. What I really worry about is their strategic thinking. 

[Unnamed Trialist]

5 minutes ago, The Beaver said:

I totally get what you are saying--and do not disagree--but I am suggesting that the reason to do everything you suggest in terms of player relations and player retention ALSO makes strategic sense for a club.  It is not unlike any workplace: retaining excellent employees is critical, and if that means paying them bonuses or given them pay raises even if their contract says you need not do either of those things, is just good and smart business.  I am an employer. I have ten employees. I work damn hard to keep my best people happy BECAUSE it is in my best interests and because it is the right thing to do. The real struggle comes when somebody really good wants a pay raise that is simply not possible. Sometimes you have to lose good people.  That's okay.  If Parker is looking for 350K, I am not sure I'd be able to justify that raise. Maybe the Caps are unethical, I don't know.  I sort of doubt it.  Cheap, yeah.  But likely not unethical. What I really worry about is their strategic thinking. 

I agree that as CBs are paid in this league, if he is asking for 350, it is high. 250k may not be. I am not sure  if he has real offers for that much.

Just looking at CB salaries in MLS, they are low. Greg Garza, comparable, 150. Harrington at 135 last season. Naess at Crew, 235. A lot of CBs make around 150 and below.

Amongst the higher, Matt Hedges, 400 grand, Aurelien Collin at RB, 450, Kappelhof makes just over 500 at Chicago, Gaston Sauro 585k at Columbus. Ridgewell makes 615.

At Whitecaps, David Edgard makes 175, Waston 350. 

[BearcatSA]

Behind Parker, let's look at the CB replacements:  an American journeyman who's probably best as a back up (Maund), two Canadians coming off of serious knee injuries and who will be playing on Field Turf for many games this season (Edgar and Henry), and an American journeyman utility defender (Franklin).  Lots of big IFs there.

 

[kmouseyc]

I think 350k is still ok for a guy like Parker he is a domestic, athletic, good age and experience mix, but if the Caps don't want to pay him then another old midfield player who really is not a game changer is not good value. Pay him the money for now and shop him around until a better player can be traded for. The risk is low and the reward will always out weighs the risk even at 350k. Teams are always looking for guys like Parker.

1 hour ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

I agree that as CBs are paid in this league, if he is asking for 350, it is high. 250k may not be. I am not sure  if he has real offers for that much.

Just looking at CB salaries in MLS, they are low. Greg Garza, comparable, 150. Harrington at 135 last season. Naess at Crew, 235. A lot of CBs make around 150 and below.

Amongst the higher, Matt Hedges, 400 grand, Aurelien Collin at RB, 450, Kappelhof makes just over 500 at Chicago, Gaston Sauro 585k at Columbus. Ridgewell makes 615.

At Whitecaps, David Edgard makes 175, Waston 350. 

seriously ridgewell makes $615 that is overpaying for a jack ass!

[hamiltonfan]

Did Egar resign? I know he was in training camp but must have missed this news if so.

[kmouseyc]

Just now, hamiltonfan said:

Did Egar resign? I know he was in training camp but must have missed this news if so.

good question! hope not.

[toontownman]

1 hour ago, BearcatSA said:

Behind Parker, let's look at the CB replacements:  an American journeyman who's probably best as a back up (Maund), two Canadians coming off of serious knee injuries and who will be playing on Field Turf for many games this season (Edgar and Henry), and an American journeyman utility defender (Franklin).  Lots of big IFs there.

 

That is whitecaps preseason signing summed up.

Rowe- Solid signing, can't fault that. Still not sure what went on with Ousted. Really liked him and feel its a big shame he was bumped out. Not least because he is now suiting up for a rival MLS club.

Kamara is the second closest thing to a banker but also has history of attitude problems and is up there in age. 

Blondell might be great, who knows if he adapts and thrives.

Henry might be great, if he stays fit and regains form

Juarez has experience but has been bought to play in a position he wants to play but really hasn't played that much in. 

David Norman Jnr/Bevan - Complete unknowns if they make it or not. 

Of course you can be hyper critical with all signings as there is never a guarentee like managers that they will fit in with the club and click.  I worry about our vision with additions though. I know Robinson gets a ton of hate but even prior I have felt the board have handcuffed the manager where signings are involved. There is a reason they have appointed up and coming managers looking for a job.

I get the money situation but I think that is often an excuse. I wish the board would show more initiative and ambition. 

[Bison44]

Edgar played the other day..so there still must be a chance eh?  As for Parker, he has been in the league 3 years, last 2 very good, he is still improving etc..time is right to lock him down for the next 3-4 years.  There is always a risk of giving him a big raise and he regresses but thats sports.  I am wondering if this really is Parker wanting to be in a big US market to get more exposure for the USMNT.  He is still under contract for 2018, if he deosnt want to sign a new long contract etc, maybe the caps will deal him but there is no rush, and not for FELIPE!!  

[The Beaver]

19 hours ago, BearcatSA said:

Behind Parker, let's look at the CB replacements:  an American journeyman who's probably best as a back up (Maund), two Canadians coming off of serious knee injuries and who will be playing on Field Turf for many games this season (Edgar and Henry), and an American journeyman utility defender (Franklin).  Lots of big IFs there.

 

Yes, and Waston will be away for at least a few weeks. If you had to move Parker, then this does not seem the year to do it.

[The Beaver]

18 hours ago, toontownman said:

That is whitecaps preseason signing summed up.

Rowe- Solid signing, can't fault that. Still not sure what went on with Ousted. Really liked him and feel its a big shame he was bumped out. Not least because he is now suiting up for a rival MLS club.

Kamara is the second closest thing to a banker but also has history of attitude problems and is up there in age. 

Blondell might be great, who knows if he adapts and thrives.

Henry might be great, if he stays fit and regains form

Juarez has experience but has been bought to play in a position he wants to play but really hasn't played that much in. 

David Norman Jnr/Bevan - Complete unknowns if they make it or not. 

Of course you can be hyper critical with all signings as there is never a guarentee like managers that they will fit in with the club and click.  I worry about our vision with additions though. I know Robinson gets a ton of hate but even prior I have felt the board have handcuffed the manager where signings are involved. There is a reason they have appointed up and coming managers looking for a job.

I get the money situation but I think that is often an excuse. I wish the board would show more initiative and ambition. 

I suspect the Caps brass DOES have a very clear strategy and that that strategy indeed hinders Robbo somewhat in his ability to sign higher quality (i.e. more expensive) players. Having said that, the Caps are not a big market team at all, and ownership does not have nearly the deep pockets that the TFC ownership has, for instance. This is, at best, a mid-market team. And they have a mid-market football strategy.  Robbo is playing a lot of Moneyball, and that will likely not change until the Caps as a business starts to really take off and/or until we get an ownership group willing to spend.  At the moment, we are relying entirely on the former. 

[toontownman]

31 minutes ago, The Beaver said:

that will likely not change until the Caps as a business starts to really take off and/or until we get an ownership group willing to spend

Totally agree with all you said. In my opinion it is the board that is hamstringing the club most. I am sympathetic and understanding of the deep pockets situation however I think it is the board that appears unwilling both to seek out more investment perhaps due to the risk displacing themselves and their egos. I think the club due to its situation and standing/history would be a huge pull for investors. However, possibly it is a bit chicken and egg with the fact their current support means very slow progress in taking off as a business. In turn their might not be the right level of investors willing to come in. Perhaps that is the clear board strategy at play. Status quo.  

On a side note. I don't know why its bugging me now but seeing Lenarduzzi getting interviewed on players, tactics and style of play really irks me. I feel it undermines Robinsons role. This is probably because its different to the systems I grew up around as I know it happens in other parts of the world, Spain especially. For me questions about players and the team being answered and directed to anyone but the head coach is trouble making. I guess it depends on clarity and transparency of roles and close working relationships/vision that makes or breaks it.

Apologies for the vent. Apparently I have a board hate on for VWC right now! 

[The Beaver]

4 hours ago, toontownman said:

Totally agree with all you said. In my opinion it is the board that is hamstringing the club most. I am sympathetic and understanding of the deep pockets situation however I think it is the board that appears unwilling both to seek out more investment perhaps due to the risk displacing themselves and their egos. I think the club due to its situation and standing/history would be a huge pull for investors. However, possibly it is a bit chicken and egg with the fact their current support means very slow progress in taking off as a business. In turn their might not be the right level of investors willing to come in. Perhaps that is the clear board strategy at play. Status quo.  

On a side note. I don't know why its bugging me now but seeing Lenarduzzi getting interviewed on players, tactics and style of play really irks me. I feel it undermines Robinsons role. This is probably because its different to the systems I grew up around as I know it happens in other parts of the world, Spain especially. For me questions about players and the team being answered and directed to anyone but the head coach is trouble making. I guess it depends on clarity and transparency of roles and close working relationships/vision that makes or breaks it.

Apologies for the vent. Apparently I have a board hate on for VWC right now! 

yeah, for some reason The Duze rankles me too. He comes across as smug, which is never a great look for anyone, least of all someone whose accomplishments in his role are rather slight.  

I am not hating the Caps. They are doing a lot of smart things for a relatively new mid-table club. The value of the franchise has indeed increased, and that should attract new investors eventually.  The thing that gives me the most hope is that Kerfoot is no dummy! I am willing to be patient with the Caps, just as long as I see evidence of sustained progress on the field and off. We are going to see a lot of Davies and DeJong this year, maybe a fair bit of Tiebert, and some good spells of Henry. Not sure if Edgar will factor, and Levis may have a lot of ground to make up to crack the line-up. they should be an exiting team to watch this year, especially if they land someone who can boss the midfield.

[BearcatSA]

I'm not convinced Robbo or the management have very sound Moneyball strategies.  I'm boldly predicting right now that we'll see some significant non-injury related player moves in the summer window.