Whitecaps Off Season 2017-2018

[TRM]

It's official and Fresno is the new affiliate for the Whitecaps and the demise of the "2" team.

https://www.whitecapsfc.com/post/2017/11/17/vancouver-whitecaps-fc-announce-new-usl-affiliation-fresno-fc

The good news is that Fresno is managed by Frank Yallop! Now if he can get results with Canucks like MDS did in NASL that would be great.

https://www.whitecapsfc.com/post/2017/11/17/fresno-fc-gm-frank-yallop-partnership-wfc-perfect-scenario

[Grizzly]

1 hour ago, TRM said:

The good news is that Fresno is managed by Frank Yallop! Now if he can get results with Canucks like MDS did in NASL that would be great.

If the Caps executed half their team you would find a way to present it in a positive light:

Caps kill 5 players but the good news is they were only those crappy Canadian players who weren't good enough to see the pitch anyway!

[TRM]

32 minutes ago, Grizzly said:

If the Caps executed half their team you would find a way to present it in a positive light:

Caps kill 5 players but the good news is they were only those crappy Canadian players who weren't good enough to see the pitch anyway!

You have a way to spin things so illogically that it is downright funny. In view of the original posting contents and your reply I can only say "What the hell are you on and where can I get some?". 

I mentioned Frank Yallop's role at Frenso because he is Canadian and like MDS might be willing to bring in more Canadian players and if he gets MDS type results it will open the door to more Canadian players getting tryouts.

How you go from that to "kill half the team" can only be a serious "GET HELP" moment for you. 

I've clearly stated in other threads, and will restate it now for your benefit,  that I think USL affiliation will not work due to drastically reduced minutes and that the MLS clubs will try something else for their 4th try at getting a reserve team structure in place. 

Sheesh dude, get a grip on reality!

[jpg75]

What Grizzly is getting at is that this (folding of the USL reserve team) is terrible news, and that yet again you seem to be trying to spin it or find a silver lining that deflects or detracts away from laying head-on blame to the Whitecaps organization for behaviour detrimental to the development of Canadian players.

[TRM]

2 hours ago, jpg75 said:

What Grizzly is getting at is that this (folding of the USL reserve team) is terrible news, and that yet again you seem to be trying to spin it or find a silver lining that deflects or detracts away from laying head-on blame to the Whitecaps organization for behaviour detrimental to the development of Canadian players.

I've been harping about how the affiliation won't work and lamenting the demise of the "2" teams because it means reduced minutes for Canadian players. 15,000 minutes per team has been lost. This has been replaced in the Montreal+Ottawa affiliation by hundreds of minutes for those players. I was hoping it wouldn't happen to Caps2 & TFC2 (TBD) but it has. 

Hey Griz how is that Ottawa affiliation working out for your players in minutes played? Where is your endless griping about that? Why not rag on that for a while? 

Nobody with a room temperature IQ or higher could have read what I posted and taken it the way he did without their being bent on being bitchy from the start. So go ahead and be a bunch of bitchy wankers for all I care. 

Oh by the way Griz and all others on here who harp on the Whitecaps. Where is the outrage that TFC2 only played Canadians for 410 minutes per game and not the 565 that they agreed to? Where is the outrage? Where are the anti-TFC diatribes? Where? 

The Whitecaps despite knowing they wouldn't be back next year fulfilled their 565 minute per game requirement (CSA numbers). 

[BenFisk'sBiggestFan]

I get that shutting down the whitecaps II team sucks, but was it really producing anything? Maybe a more competitive spirit in Fresno will help development. I know that it is still a big loss to lose one of Canada’s only professional teams and if you guys want to complain about it go ahead. I just don’t get why we have to attack people trying to be positive. The Canadian soccer stigma is just as bad on this board as it is anywhere in the country. People constantly are talking about how terrible the soccer system is. I am sure that is inspiring the young talent...

[jpg75]

3 hours ago, TRM said:

Oh by the way Griz and all others on here who harp on the Whitecaps. Where is the outrage that TFC2 only played Canadians for 410 minutes per game and not the 565 that they agreed to? Where is the outrage? Where are the anti-TFC diatribes? Where? 

The Whitecaps despite knowing they wouldn't be back next year fulfilled their 565 minute per game requirement (CSA numbers). 

I think most people (like myself) are unaware of that fact, but now that i do know (and i checked the USL team stats and there were 13,000-odd MP by Canadians) i think it's total bullshit and the CSA better sanction the club in a meaningful way.

As far as the Whitecaps fulfilling their MP quota that's great, but let's not forget they were culpable in not meeting the requirements in 2016 and probably opened pandora's box with that one.

[harrycoyster]

4 hours ago, jpg75 said:

I think most people (like myself) are unaware of that fact, but now that i do know (and i checked the USL team stats and there were 13,000-odd MP by Canadians) i think it's total bullshit and the CSA better sanction the club in a meaningful way.

Here's the thing. TFCII needed non-Canadians to stay  remotely competitive. It's a hard thing to hear, but it's true. VWCII needed to bring in two New Zealand internationals and an American CB to finish second to last in the West, and Toronto still didn't manage to get out of last in the East.

Rolling your kids out every week to get steamrolled doesn't do anything for development, so the Caps and TFC took necessary steps.

[jpg75]

So because TFC II can only find 17 yr olds from the academy to trot out and get steamrolled they're justified in breaking the pre-established rules? No man, rules are rules. They should have signed a few young Canadians in their early 20's instead of using American draft picks. Or even use some guys out of L1O, whatever.

[harrycoyster]

50 minutes ago, jpg75 said:

So because TFC II can only find 17 yr olds from the academy to trot out and get steamrolled they're justified in breaking the pre-established rules? No man, rules are rules. They should have signed a few young Canadians in their early 20's instead of using American draft picks. Or even use some guys out of L1O, whatever.

The average age of the Canadian TFCII players is 20. Luca Ucello is 20, Ryan Tefler is 23, Anthony Osorio is 23, Anthony Cavalluzzo is 24. The whole point of the USL team is to develop TFC academy players, what is the point of bringing in other Canadians playing at the USL level? How does that help Canadian development? Not to mention the expense that entails.

The rules are partially responsible for why the Canadian USLII teams are going away. The American MLS teams fill in the holes in their youth academies with foreign players, which consequently raises the level of play for everyone. That extends to the USL level. Less than half of the Swope Park Rangers starting eleven is American, but the team has sent three Americans to sign MLS deals with SKC. NYRBII has 9 non-Americans on the roster and 4-5 non-American starters. Guess what? They win, are the best developmental team in the USL, and have produced five American NYRB players in two years.

The CSA/USL minutes limit was incredibly short-sighted and props to Montreal for realizing the USL arrangement was setting their kids up to fail a year before we did. 

[jpg75]

1 hour ago, harrycoyster said:

The average age of the Canadian TFCII players is 20. Luca Ucello is 20, Ryan Tefler is 23, Anthony Osorio is 23, Anthony Cavalluzzo is 24. The whole point of the USL team is to develop TFC academy players, what is the point of bringing in other Canadians playing at the USL level? How does that help Canadian development? Not to mention the expense that entails.

The rules are partially responsible for why the Canadian USLII teams are going away. The American MLS teams fill in the holes in their youth academies with foreign players, which consequently raises the level of play for everyone. That extends to the USL level. Less than half of the Swope Park Rangers starting eleven is American, but the team has sent three Americans to sign MLS deals with SKC. NYRBII has 9 non-Americans on the roster and 4-5 non-American starters. Guess what? They win, are the best developmental team in the USL, and have produced five American NYRB players in two years.

The CSA/USL minutes limit was incredibly short-sighted and props to Montreal for realizing the USL arrangement was setting their kids up to fail a year before we did. 

Actually the USL Reserve team is there to develop players, mostly (hopefully) Canadians. If there are young Canadians unaffiliated with the club who are good enough to play they should be given a shot. There's no excuse to not meet the quota.

edit: look at a guy like Dylan Carreiro, still only 22, former TFCA player who was L1O MVP this season. Sure there are a few other guys who would have been good enough.

...So then what i gather the problem is is that we're not signing good enough foreign players. If we're not playing the Canadians enough and the team still sucks, who is it that's not good enough? We'll copy the RBNY model, sign a bunch of hot-shot foreigners, ramp up immigration so that we're drawing from a pop. base of 25M+ and we're set.

[Bison44]

Harry I'm not sure I follow the logic.  The CSA minutes thing was 6x90  540min/game or maybe a little more right?  You are using NYRB2 as an example to follow with 4-5 non american starters, so that means 6-7 american starters, which would be right on the domestic target we set for our USL teams.  So they are roughly playing the same amount of domestics as we try to.....hmmmmmmm.  Their domestic prospects are better than ours possibly??  Well then I dont blame TFC/VWC2 for bringin in a CU guy like Telfer or Zator/Levis.  They meet the CDN quota are a little older/wiser and prob still deserve a shot.

 Or its the quality of foreign guys we bring in that suck? Well blame that on Vanney cause alot of them are his draft picks.  

And I dont think the MLS teams see the USL affliates/second teams as being there to develop academy players.  Draft picks and fringe players get dumped in there most of the time as well.  The USL team has to prove up some of these kids at the academy kids expense.  And NYRB2 are lucky enough to have alot of their former academy kids go on to be groomed in college and come back as homegrowns at 21-22.  So is it really them or the college that deserves the credit?  The USL team was just a brief stopover for some of those young americans transitioning from college ball.  

[harrycoyster]

2 hours ago, Bison44 said:

Harry I'm not sure I follow the logic.  The CSA minutes thing was 6x90  540min/game or maybe a little more right?  You are using NYRB2 as an example to follow with 4-5 non american starters, so that means 6-7 american starters, which would be right on the domestic target we set for our USL teams.  So they are roughly playing the same amount of domestics as we try to.....hmmmmmmm.  Their domestic prospects are better than ours possibly??  Well then I dont blame TFC/VWC2 for bringin in a CU guy like Telfer or Zator/Levis.  They meet the CDN quota are a little older/wiser and prob still deserve a shot.

 Or its the quality of foreign guys we bring in that suck? Well blame that on Vanney cause alot of them are his draft picks.  

My point was that the clubs needed to have more flexibility with foreign players to make the team competitive. I can't really speak to TFCII as I don't really follow them all too closely, but in the case of VWCII it was clear early on this season that the talent wasn't there to compete in USL. Then Nerwinski went up to the first team, Christian Dean was traded, and the play of Tom Gardner and Chris Serban fell off a cliff. So now they had holes in four positions supplementing an already weak roster and little Canadian talent to fill it with internally. Few Canadian players want to forgo college to sit on the bench in USL, so Vancouver didn't have a deep pool of 18 year old players ready to fill in. By July, the Caps start limiting their foreign players' minutes to meet the 6x90 rule. Baldisimo, Gardner,  Norman, Campbell and Bustos (who was plucked from the first team because the Caps needed semi-competent Canadians for VWCII) becomes the regular midfield. They suck...hard. I recall a game against the Sounders II (who also suck btw) where we had a single shot, 40% possession, and had an uncountable number of turnovers. It was embarrassing and the only thing anybody on the Caps was learning  was who not to pass the ball to.

At this point what are the Caps options? Basically let the team continue to fail with a handful of players that don't belong on a PDL pitch let alone a USL one or go get players. Here's the problem: Canadian players who can walk into USL and raise the level of the team are fairly rare and relatively expensive...especially so at the Caps positions of need in CB and CM. Foreign players who can do that are a dime a dozen, and are generally willing to play for nearly nothing to get into the American soccer pyramid. The Caps brought in Barbir, but without the international rule they'd have brought in 3-4 players, played players without regards to nationality, and given the capable Canadian players a chance to show their talents alongside USL level players. Instead, 2017 was a wasted year in terms of development for most of the team.

3 hours ago, Bison44 said:

And I dont think the MLS teams see the USL affliates/second teams as being there to develop academy players.

That is 100% how MLS teams view their USL teams. It's not Route A, but useful for those who aren't ready for MLS at 18 and "prove it" players. It's very rare that a player stays at a USL2 club for more than a couple seasons.

3 hours ago, Bison44 said:

And NYRB2 are lucky enough to have alot of their former academy kids go on to be groomed in college and come back as homegrowns at 21-22.  So is it really them or the college that deserves the credit?  The USL team was just a brief stopover for some of those young americans transitioning from college ball.  

Nice to hear somebody praise the NCAA ,  but that's more a result of the fact that NYRBII is only two years old and needed to pull players from college in the first year to form its player base. Tyler Adams, Derrick Etienne, and Ben Mines are the three most recent homegrown to join the senior team and have a single year of college ball between them. 

[BenFisk'sBiggestFan]

From what i am hearing the top prospects will still have the same oportunity as before to play in the USL. They will have their chance to fight for a starting spot on a more competitive team which can only be beneficial for them. 

For those players that obviously aren’t ready for USL, like harrycoyster had mentioned, they will be encouraged to graduate the academy and play college. That means they will have an extra 4 years of development at a lower level, which they obviously need.

I know people aren’t happy, but i honestly see it as a more competitive system. It doesnt sound as good by the numbers, but in theory it sounds ok. Obviously no one knows how it will turn out until a couple years from now. I don’t think it will harm the development that much, and it may even help it. Plus, it is way cheaper and maybe the whitecaps will actually be able to buy some decent players because of it (maybe even Canadian).

[jpg75]

I'm just curious what the Whitecaps are getting wrong if their top 18-19 year olds "don't belong on a PDL pitch let alone a USL one"?

[harrycoyster]

1 hour ago, jpg75 said:

I'm just curious what the Whitecaps are getting wrong if their top 18-19 year olds "don't belong on a PDL pitch let alone a USL one"?

The Whitecaps had what they thought were ~10 Canadian players from the 2016 and 2017 u18 classes that could start at USL level. That number is pretty typical of MLS academies. They were wrong on about 2-3 of those players (also not uncommon), 1 had a season ending injury in March, and 3-4 chose to play in the NCAA/USports over signing a USL deal. That left 4-5 capable Canadian USL players (Chung, Norman, Baldisimo, etc.) playing alongside Canadians that didn't belong at the level (Metcalfe, Campbell, Gardner, etc.) in order to meet the quota.

So while the American USL2 teams were bringing in USL level players so their prospects had the opportunity to play regularly at a higher level, the Caps were left to demote Canadians from their MLS roster and play kids who clearly needed to be benched until they regained confidence. 

[The Ref]

Worrisome news http://nationalpost.com/sports/soccer/mls/vancouver-whitecaps/yordy-reyna-to-be-questioned-by-police-following-death-of-16-year-old-peruvian-volleyball-player/wcm/c0e02496-2280-478d-955e-fcc486b1308b

 

[harrycoyster]

Caps announce first roster moves of the off season.

Released: 

- David Ousted, David Edgar, Cole Seiler, Sheanon Williams, Christian Bolaños, Marco Bustos, Nosa Igiebor, Matías Laba, Ben McKendry, Mauro Rosales, Russell Teibert, and Kyle Greig.

Players not offered a contract: 

- Jordan Harvey and Andrew Jacobson.

Picked up options/new contracts:

- Sam Adekugbe, Marcel de Jong, Brett Levis, Jake Nerwinski, Tim Parker, Kendall Waston, Tony Tchani, Brek Shea

 

[Chad_Impact]

Wow 

[The Beaver]

Note: Caps are still talking to the agents of several of these players, including Nosa, Bolanos, Laba, Bustos and Tiebert. Would love to see Laba and Nosa back for sure. Hope that Tiebert can land with another MLS squad; same with guys like McKendry and Bustos, but I suspect we'll see those guys in the CPL next. Robbo also says they are trying to make something happen with Montero.

[toontownman]

Some big surprises there but also not the full picture as all or none of those could be back. Reasonably happy with the list. Would have put Hurtardo on there though. Agree with The Beaver, would like Laba and Nosa back. 

Some big cap space there that I hope they use wisely. Great to see Brett Levis retained too. So much raw potential if he is back to full fitness.

[The Beaver]

Saw another report that indicated that Robbo wants to keep Bustos and Tiebert and Edgar, too. But he'll want them back on cheaper contracts, I imagine. At least Edgar.

[Unnamed Trialist]

Once again Robinson plays crap shoot with players to hide his own defects as a coach. If this was a good year, and if he deserves to return, then the core of the team do as well. That is the basic logic you have to follow. If that was a good year, then tweak the team to slightly improve for next season. 

What he is doing by naming so few starters to next year's squad is admitting it was a bad year, he does not know what to do with his squad, and that he changes faces because he is useless at altering the qualilty or efficiency of the play.

[The Beaver]

3 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Once again Robinson plays crap shoot with players to hide his own defects as a coach. If this was a good year, and if he deserves to return, then the core of the team do as well. That is the basic logic you have to follow. If that was a good year, then tweak the team to slightly improve for next season. 

What he is doing by naming so few starters to next year's squad is admitting it was a bad year, he does not know what to do with his squad, and that he changes faces because he is useless at altering the qualilty or efficiency of the play.

Yes and but also, it could mean that he does not see enough quality in the side. I mean, if he can keep guys like Nosa and Laba, and then maybe get Montero back, he DOES have a pretty darn good core with the other 19 on roster. Not TFC-quality, mind you, but a decent side.

Not saying that Robbo has the chops to guide this core to success; just saying that I do not disagree with many of the choices so far, in terms of options picked up and dropped. (Skeptical about paying Shea DP wages, and I am not convinced Tchani has a role on this team if Laba, Ghazal and Nosa are signed and healthy, but the rest make sense. No?)

[toontownman]

Whaaaaa?

http://www.rednationonline.ca/Articles2016/IsareunionwithChiumientoapossibilityfor.aspx 

Nice memories. Probably best to keep them that way. Not convinced he has anything to offer us at his age.