Floro Must Go

[Hawkguy]

I like how because we're mediocre in terms of talent (I think we're better than some people give us credit for), we're just fine with conceding a game with 23 minutes left. A do or die game.

I don't care if you're Netherlands or The Big Green.. you don't concede. 

[Hawkguy]

8 minutes ago, Free kick said:

Floro is not the the reason we lost.

In case people are reading me wrong, I agree with this. He's not the reason we lost. Even with a better coach and the right players, this was going to be a difficult game to get a result in. But Floro definitely made the small chance even slimmer by selecting the roster he did and making the subs he did. 

[The Beaver]

2 minutes ago, Hawkguy said:

I like how because we're mediocre in terms of talent (I think we're better than some people give us credit for), we're just fine with conceding a game with 23 minutes left. A do or die game.

I don't care if you're Netherlands or The Big Green.. you don't concede. 

Highly doubt Floro was conceding. You might disagree with, or not fully understand, why he made that last sub, but I am pretty damn sure he was till trying to get a result. And to be fair, I am NOT arguing to keep Floro. I'm just not convinced we would have had a measurably better result under any other manager.

[king1010]

Having an unattached player go 90 mins when he clearly looked gassed at halftime in 40 degree weather was very questionable. 

Having a player who hasnt broke into his teams squad ever and who recently just came off an injury start out of position at right back is very questionable. Henry coming of an injury not seeing any minutes at west ham gets beat for pace on their second goal. 

The above even more questionable when the coach claims to have left johnson at home for "fitness" questions. 

[balfe]

3 minutes ago, Hawkguy said:

In case people are reading me wrong, I agree with this. He's not the reason we lost. Even with a better coach and the right players, this was going to be a difficult game to get a result in. But Floro definitely made the small chance even slimmer by selecting the roster he did and making the subs he did. 

I have to agree, you can't be starting players who don't play regularly and one who dose'nt even have a club!!

[kohanz]

Just now, king1010 said:

Having an unattached player go 90 mins when he clearly looked gassed at halftime was very questionable. 

Having a player who hasnt broke into his teams squad ever and who recently just came off an injury start out of position at right back is very questionable. Henry coming of an injury not seeing any minutes at west ham gets beat for pace on their second goal. 

I'm no Floro-backer, but to be completely fair, James' inclusion in the starters was one of the most question decisions here (the back line overall was questioned) and he was our goal-scorer, so it goes both ways.

[king1010]

1 minute ago, kohanz said:

I'm no Floro-backer, but to be completely fair, James' inclusion in the starters was one of the most question decisions here (the back line overall was questioned) and he was our goal-scorer, so it goes both ways.

People were questioning henry at right back. James was a projected starter. He started both games in mexico. If anything they were thinking vittoria ovee jakovic who rides the pine in japan 2nd division

[matty]

Who do you want to replace him? An MLS guy? Another European coach with a CV? A Mexican or South American?

What do you think we need to move on from the era for Floro?

[apbsmith]

Not in love with Floro do feel the program has made strides. 

I always thought it would come down to our backline-  lack of club playing time + quality, I think James & Henry do have a decent ceiling. Sure some guys out of position but even the "better" options would have made 0 difference in my opinion. 

Really tbh, whatever back 4 on our team we rolled out, would have needed a miracle.  It's a miracle was only 2-1.  Funny though, both hondurans goals were pretty fortunate, at same time the ones that should have went in borjan slammed the door or Hondurans couldn't finish.

I'm sure hutch is still crushed from that 1st goal and Dejong about the 2nd. 

Forced myself to rewatch both goals, Hutch was so close. Surprised we didn't close out on shooter though. 

2nd goal lol @ Dejong being further up the pitch than akindele when the play was around midfield. 

Is that why akindele got subbed? Didn't cover for dejong or is that why dejong always gets moved from club to club, liability to high w him on the pitch ? 

I dunno my thoughts are clouded and mixed. I'm still mind boggled we had one guy back and gave up a counter attack goal from the run of play.

[The Beaver]

6 minutes ago, king1010 said:

Having an unattached player go 90 mins when he clearly looked gassed at halftime in 40 degree weather was very questionable. 

Having a player who hasnt broke into his teams squad ever and who recently just came off an injury start out of position at right back is very questionable. Henry coming of an injury not seeing any minutes at west ham gets beat for pace on their second goal. 

The above even more questionable when the coach claims to have left johnson at home for "fitness" questions. 

Right, but one has to wonder if Floro himself feels he is simply handcuffed with such a weak player pool and has to make what appears to be shitty substitutions as a result.  I would have subbed Hoillet off instead of Akindele. Tesho was tired, but he still had some juice in the tank. As for right back, I am not myself confident we have a better option. Maybe Ledgerwood? Okay, Hutch would be an upgrade at right back, but come on!  

[kohanz]

8 minutes ago, king1010 said:

People were questioning henry at right back. James was a projected starter. He started both games in mexico. If anything they were thinking vittoria ovee jakovic who rides the pine in japan 2nd division

I don't disagree with you, but I did see it questioned ("Only thing I'm not sure about this lineup is James in, instead of Vitoria" was in the pre-game thread, for example).

Anyway, with how lopsided the game was, I'm not sure if another selection would have fared better. The goal difference flattered us.

[The Beaver]

Okay, here's the better question: Will Floro be replaced if we crash out of qualifiers? Do you think that Victor will give him the ax?  If our stable of top guys--Hutch, Edgar, JDG, Johnson et al.--are all going to be too old to be useful for next WCQ, then should we not consider a manager who has the ability AND mandate to take a young crop of players and build them--over a couple of cycles--into a fantastic international side?  Is Floro the guy to do that?

[king1010]

 

2 minutes ago, The Beaver said:

Okay, here's the better question: Will Floro be replaced if we crash out of qualifiers? Do you think that Victor will give him the ax?  If our stable of top guys--Hutch, Edgar, JDG, Johnson et al.--are all going to be too old to be useful for next WCQ, then should we not consider a manager who has the ability AND mandate to take a young crop of players and build them--over a couple of cycles--into a fantastic international side?  Is Floro the guy to do that?

I feel players should develop under their clubs and the grassroots level. The mnt coach's job isnt to develop young players. Thats the techinical directors job. 

The coach's job is tactics. Lineups. Subs. It shouldnt be his mandate to develop young players. Thats what de vos got hired for. 

[mpg_29]

3 minutes ago, The Beaver said:

Okay, here's the better question: Will Floro be replaced if we crash out of qualifiers? Do you think that Victor will give him the ax?  If our stable of top guys--Hutch, Edgar, JDG, Johnson et al.--are all going to be too old to be useful for next WCQ, then should we not consider a manager who has the ability AND mandate to take a young crop of players and build them--over a couple of cycles--into a fantastic international side?  Is Floro the guy to do that?

No. Someone younger and more importantly someone who is fluent in English.

[paul-collins]

You know, this summer has been blazing hot in Toronto.  Will Johnson would have had more match fitness than a number of the starters (Aird, Hoilett, Jakovic).  Hell, he played 71 minutes in Philadelphia in 30+ heat the week before he played the full 90 against Montreal.

Some thought has to be given to how to get through CONCACAF, which means late summer fixtures in extreme heat.  We can't have our best players coming from the off-season into that.  Time to think about how to get more NT presence in the MLS (even if only on loan).

[Free kick]

31 minutes ago, matty said:

Who do you want to replace him? An MLS guy? Another European coach with a CV? A Mexican or South American?

How about just a good coach with good understanding of the game, good eye for talent, diverse experience and good mgmt and people skills.  

Enough of this European, South american or whatever coach.   Your skills is what makes you competent.   Not your nationality or ethnicity.  I happen to think a guy like Carl robinson would fit the bill. 

[The Beaver]

2 minutes ago, Free kick said:

How about just a good coach with good understanding of the game, diverse experience and good mgmt and people skills.  

Enough of this European, South american or whatever coach.   Your skills is what makes you competant.  Not your nationality or ethnicity.  I happen to think a guy like Carl robinson would fit the bill. 

I like Robbo a lot--just saw him at Starbucks the other day!--but his real strength is in long term strategy and development. If we wanted a national coach who could operate a bit more like Herdman does, then I'd give Robbo a shot--or someone like him. But the MNT's coach will never be afforded that sort of long term mandate. Robbo is best when working with the club and squad on a daily basis. He is not yet the tactician one would need at the international level.  But I DO agree with the rest of what you say. 

[matty]

1 minute ago, Free kick said:

  Enough of this European, South american or whatever coach.   Your skills is what makes you competant.  Not your nationality or ethnicity.  I happen to think a guy like Carl robinson would fit the bill. 

Different regions and leagues come with a different understandings of the game. A coach who has coached in Mexico or Brazil theoretically will have a better idea of what it's like to play in Latin America and a coach who's coached an MLS team might have a better idea how to get the best out of a team with a great deal of MLS-based players. The question what meant to ask what kind of coaching experience people think Canada would benefit most from.

That said I do think Robinson should be in the conversation

[The Beaver]

8 minutes ago, paul-collins said:

You know, this summer has been blazing hot in Toronto.  Will Johnson would have had more match fitness than a number of the starters (Aird, Hoilett, Jakovic).  Hell, he played 71 minutes in Philadelphia in 30+ heat the week before he played the full 90 against Montreal.

Some thought has to be given to how to get through CONCACAF, which means late summer fixtures in extreme heat.  We can't have our best players coming from the off-season into that.  Time to think about how to get more NT presence in the MLS (even if only on loan).

Well, Johnson has not played a whole helluva lot this summer, to be fair. More importantly, he is not a winger like Hoillet, he does not bring the same talent as Arifield [not Aird, by the way], and he does not play CB.  He could have played in Edgar's spot, and Edgar could have replaced Dejan. But still, would we have had a better result with Will in the line-up? Is he a difference-maker? Love is attitude and guts, but come on.

[Free kick]

4 minutes ago, matty said:

Different regions and leagues come with a different understandings of the game. A coach who has coached in Mexico or Brazil theoretically will have a better idea of what it's like to play in Latin America and a coach who's coached an MLS team might have a better idea how to get the best out of a team with a great deal of MLS-based player.

I disagree.  The world is much smaller place today than it was 20-30 years ago.  Just need to have watched many world cups over that time.   There use to be distinct approach to the game based alot on culture or nationality.... Not anymore.

[shermanator]

Geez, Scott, look what you started!

[paul-collins]

Just now, The Beaver said:

Well, Johnson has not played a whole helluva lot this summer, to be fair. More importantly, he is not a winger like Hoillet, he does not bring the same talent as Arifield [not Aird, by the way], and he does not play CB.  He could have played in Edgar's spot, and Edgar could have replaced Dejan. But still, would we have had a better result with Will in the line-up? Is he a difference-maker? Love is attitude and guts, but come on.

No, I'm not really suggesting that he would be subbed for Arfield (whoops on the Aird, get the names mixed up all the time) but I am pointing out that he at least has two games in the last two weeks on top of his training, whereas others do not have that level of endurance.

I was more thinking about the conditioning and the conditions in general than I was trying to make the case for Will being, at the least, on the bench.  I think that we do need to maximize what our players can bring to these specific situations.  Off season training is never going to prepare you for a match in these conditions.  Playing regularly, especially in similar conditions (as Larin does, and Will has recently) will get the player in a position to be able to put that effort in for the full game.

Honestly, we looked pedestrian out there just in the running, never mind the skill.

[The Beaver]

2 minutes ago, paul-collins said:

No, I'm not really suggesting that he would be subbed for Arfield (whoops on the Aird, get the names mixed up all the time) but I am pointing out that he at least has two games in the last two weeks on top of his training, whereas others do not have that level of endurance.

I was more thinking about the conditioning and the conditions in general than I was trying to make the case for Will being, at the least, on the bench.  I think that we do need to maximize what our players can bring to these specific situations.  Off season training is never going to prepare you for a match in these conditions.  Playing regularly, especially in similar conditions (as Larin does, and Will has recently) will get the player in a position to be able to put that effort in for the full game.

Honestly, we looked pedestrian out there just in the running, never mind the skill.

No, I totally got your point, and I think that having Will on the bench would have been a plus.  Not sure why Floro did not select Tiebert, who is MADE for these conditions. The guy has amazing cardio, and would have been tireless in the role Edgar played today.  But, to be fair, Russell has not played a lot this year. (He was great against LA last week, and I expect him to start tomorrow against NYRB.) 

[Olympique_de_Marseille]

1 hour ago, Bertuzzi44 said:

Putting a RB on for our lone striker when we needed a result and were a goal down was madness.

Watching from the stands this sub made sense to me. Larin was slow and by replacing him with Ricketts we added his speed (Legerwood is better on the wing than Ricketts). Floro is somewhat loco but this was not one of those moments.

[shermanator]

I'm going to be blunt here. A new coach changes nothing. While we are a nation that is very well off, we are a third world country when it comes to footballing. Should we be surprised at today's result? No. Can we do better with what we have? Right now, no.

it's time to put our money where our mouths are and invest in the game at the grassroots level. Our MLS clubs are more American than Canadian. Our NASL clubs are haemorrhaging money with one having incredibly low fan support and another with not enough to break even, and neither look long for that league. No one shows up to support our USL, PDL, League1 Ontario or PLSQ clubs. Being a professional footballer is not achievable for most of those with the talent, and not an attractive career path for those who happen to get noticed.

Get out and support local. Until then, we can just hit F5 and refresh this thread 4 years from now.