Floro Must Go

[dyslexic nam]

12 hours ago, kohanz said:

I'm no Floro-backer, but to be completely fair, James' inclusion in the starters was one of the most question decisions here (the back line overall was questioned) and he was our goal-scorer, so it goes both ways.

Yes, James managed to head in a goal from a corner - and good for him for doing it.  But he also got completely skinned multiple times in open play, committed a foul that would have been a red or a PK 99% of the time, and was generally the doorway Honduras went through on their way to goal.  It is no coincidence that their forward attacked him over and over again.

 

One set piece goal does not negate an otherwise weak game.

[dyslexic nam]

Also, to get back to the thread topic...

Floro was brought in to do one thing - make the hex (or the WC, but one step at a time).  Barring a miracle on Tuesday, he/we will have failed to do that.

Regarding the cap-tying of players, I agree that our player pool has deepened a bit this cycle (though obviously not enough).  But I am still sceptical that Floro was driving that bus.  I have said it elsewhere - WC qualifying happens on  4 yr cycles, so if a player opts out for one of those cycles, they miss the chance to possibly play in the WC for about 33-50% of their careers.  Without having access top the edifice info either way, I suspect that the decision of some guys to play for Canada this cycle is a result of timing and circumstance rather than any divine intervention by Floro.  And on the recruitment front, one thing we really needed last night was a guy who can put the ball in the net in South American/Central American conditions and play for 90 minutes in the heat.  one such guy is Cavallini, but we didn't manage to get him involved this cycle.  

Finally, there was nothing in our play last night that tells me we have made tactical progress.  Barring some great saves by Borjan, this would have been way closer to the 8-1 debacle - especially if you factor in that we would have probably collapsed (again) if they had bagged 2 or 3 of their early golden opportunities.

Basically, I have no idea how Floro can be seen as a success.  Yes, our player pool is limited.  But we brought in a coach who was to get us the result we need despite those limitations.  And barring a miracle, he has not done that.  And nothing I have seen in our team's play suggests to me that he has brought any substantial benefit to the team.  Parking the bus - even as a team - really isn't a complex system of play.  Yet last night we didn't even do that for the result we needed.  Let's be honest, the final score line flattered our play by a wide margin.  I was a bit hopeful about outer offensive play for the first 15 minutes or so, but we were generally very poor.  Throw in the bizarre team selection, veteran (or promising) player snubs, and inexplicable substitutions, and I struggle to see how anyone thinks Floro has in any way met expectations.

[Vince193]

One thing that many did not critique until the end was that Floro was married to a system and formation and refused to change it no matter what happened. the 4-1-4-1 was great at the onset but when things mattered it collapsed. At the GC Canada was toothless and we scored two goals in this round of WCQ. Canada also gave up goals despite this system being set up to limit that as much as possible. 

Floro's personnel choices are also problematic. Jakovic was heavily relied on despite the dude never really being that good and that being compounded by the fact he hasn't played (2nd division) club ball on a consistent bases for more than a year. Doneil Henry is a damn head scratcher. Dude hasn't played at all for West Ham and can't stay healthy yet Floro relies on him heavily at right back, a position he does not play in his u21 reserve matches. Piette's been on a downward trajectory since leaving Germany and gets rewarded with call ups. JDG was suppose to retire in like 2013, but apparently Floro convinced him to stay on. I love his service tot he team but it has been time for him to retire from Canada ages ago.

Eddie Edward is a RB, and if Ledgerwood, Ouimette, JDG and Dixon can get called, no reason he couldn't have been. Same goes for Mallan Roberts.  Osorio is the biggest issue. Many in the media will say "he doesn't fit the system" well to that I tell them the system sucks. Larin is a goddamn island and Osorio (and maybe an Aleman) wold actually give him something to work with. Dude plays regular minuted for a good team in a decent league. How is that not grounds for a call up, I didn't know Canada was so deep with talent we could afford to leave him at home. 

This team could have been better. Floro limited them.

[Ruffian]

3 minutes ago, Vince193 said:

Eddie Edward is a RB, and if Ledgerwood, Ouimette, JDG and Dixon can get called, no reason he couldn't have been. Same goes for Mallan Roberts.  Osorio is the biggest issue. Many in the media will say "he doesn't fit the system" well to that I tell them the system sucks. Larin is a goddamn island and Osorio (and maybe an Aleman) wold actually give him something to work with. Dude plays regular minuted for a good team in a decent league. How is that not grounds for a call up, I didn't know Canada was so deep with talent we could afford to leave him at home. 

Aleman is on a downward spiral also. He is now on a team in Costa Rica that is not one of the big three (Herediano, Saprissa and Alajuelense) and has only played in a first team game once in 2016. The big three in Costa Rica are decent teams but still of lesser quality than MLS teams.

[canucklefan]

1 hour ago, shamrock said:

if you can't see the difference between 8-1 and 2-1 you shouldn't be assessing head coaches. There's just not more in there right now. Even if we make the Hex there no chance of getting out if there anyway. 

If you are trying to "assess" Hart, let me remind you that he is going to the Hex. 

[Gopherbashi]

49 minutes ago, dyslexic nam said:

Basically, I have no idea how Floro can be seen as a success.  Yes, our player pool is limited.  But we brought in a coach who was to get us the result we need despite those limitations.  And barring a miracle, he has not done that.

What's so frustrating to me is not that he hasn't gotten us those results we need, but that he seems to make substitutions that prevent us from taking a full shot at achieving them.

[canucklefan]

My problem with Floro is that he was brought for his experience and he opted for a system a mediocre coach can work with. IMO, Floro is not an upgrade from the previous coaches with no experience. If you are going to rely on set pieces to score, and start the match with 6-8 defenders, there's no need to hire a foreign coach.

[youllneverwalkalone]

Having observed Holger and Floro's approach to coaching Canada, I have to conclude that most managers with international quality will come to basically the same conclusion: keep it tight, play for set-pieces, and hope for a bit of luck. I did enjoy Holger's 3-5-2 more, and think it's still the best formation for Canada today, but Osieck had much better players 1-11. Also, the problem from Holger to Floro was a lack of discipline and humility by our players. You go back to Robinson, and this will rear it's head. 

[youllneverwalkalone]

Despite having just somewhat defended Floro, if he does get fired, and we have a 2 year search, rather than hiring Finlay (who I think is great, btw) I might take a flyer on Armado Guevara for two years. He just always struck me as having an above average IQ. Not sure about his own level of discipline, but I'd definitely be curious what he could do.

I'd probably give JD Valdes from Panama a call as well, although I'm not sure about his language skills.

[Ruffian]

3 minutes ago, youllneverwalkalone said:

Despite having just somewhat defended Floro, if he does get fired, and we have a 2 year search, rather than hiring Finlay (who I think is great, btw) I might take a flyer on Armado Guevara for two years. He just always struck me as having an above average IQ. Not sure about his own level of discipline, but I'd definitely be curious what he could do.

I'd probably give JD Valdes from Panama a call as well, although I'm not sure about his language skills.

What about Carl Robinson when he is let go by the Whitecaps? He has knowledge of Canadian soccer. Wait... he might find a way to not play Canadians!

[rightback]

We keep playing poorly defensively. It's not that difficult: track the runners, get out to pressure the man with the ball to prevent him taking a shot, don't lunge in or get too tight to the man. These are basic mistakes that, I'm sure, any coach hammers away at again and again. I think it's a lack of quality rather than a coaching issue. I don't think anyone is adequately quarterbacking the back line and we need someone with the personality and intelligence to do that or we will continue to have these results. I'm not saying they're bad players for, say, MLS, but they're not up for international play beyond a certain level.

One thing about these qualifiers though...I'm becoming a lot more sympathetic to Hart. Even if he was a lot better, I don't know that he would have achieved better results given the level of our players.

 

[theaub]

54 minutes ago, canucklefan said:

If you are trying to "assess" Hart, let me remind you that he is going to the Hex. 

With a win in a mid-tier Central American country too!

[shermanator]

Also, I think this thread is kind of a moot point, because Floro's contract runs out after Canada's qualifying cycle is done. Which is on Wednesday barring a big time swing in goal differential. He'll be gone shortly, there should be no doubt about that. But the problem with our national team is much deeper than just the man at the top making some bizarre subs.

[gator]

Bringing in a defender when we were supposedly chasing a goal was a head scratcher to many of us, if you look at it though we were not going to score an equaliser no matter who he brought in and the choice was limited, the team was done, not one player was running any more and Honduras knew this and were trying to get that 3rd which would have given us no chance of qualifying!

[RJB]

When are we going to stop blaming the coach, and see that the problem goes well beyond that. Hart took t&t to the hex... so was he a bad coach when he was here? No, we were a bad team, and t&t are better than us. Floro is not the problem. He's brought stability and an improved style and confidence to this team. And the Ledgewood sub is a silly thing to look at, as it shows how naive people are to think only strikers can score; that there's nothing in the midfield that is needed to generate a goal. If we don't advance, he'll quit,but that would be a shame because I've finally enjoyed watching us play, as opposed to watching out of love.

[BearcatSA]

3 hours ago, dyslexic nam said:

Yes, James managed to head in a goal from a corner - and good for him for doing it.  But he also got completely skinned multiple times in open play, committed a foul that would have been a red or a PK 99% of the time, and was generally the doorway Honduras went through on their way to goal.  It is no coincidence that their forward attacked him over and over again.

 

One set piece goal does not negate an otherwise weak game.

I thought he was generally sub par, apart from a couple of 1 v 1 ball wins.  The play where he got stripped of the ball looked particularly bad.  Jakovic looked off the pace a couple of times and generally gave the look of a guy who hasn't played in a long time.

[madmonte]

I remember getting a touch of heat for starting a "we should question Floro" thread quite some time ago like during or after the Gold Cup.  I remember being excited by his appointment and then slowly turned off by his choices.  I think by now it's clear that his player tactics are far too conservative.  He's done some good things, but yeah, I really questioned his player choices very very early into his CMNT tenure.  They seemed odd right off the bat.

[One American]

Five Canadians started in the midfield for their MLS clubs in the game prior to the qualifiers. None of them (Teibert, Aird, Osorio, Bekker, Johnson) were even called in. 

[RJB]

12 minutes ago, One American said:

Five Canadians started in the midfield for their MLS clubs in the game prior to the qualifiers. None of them (Teibert, Aird, Osorio, Bekker, Johnson) were even called in. 

Would they have made the difference?

[BearcatSA]

1 minute ago, RJB said:

Would they have made the difference?

Did bringing in Hainault as an 8th CB make a difference?

[gator]

1 minute ago, RJB said:

Would they have made the difference?

I think not! As much as I like Johnson his game is based on running and chasing everything down, you just can't do that in those conditions and he was not 100% after a long lay off!

[Oranje]

15 hours ago, shermanator said:

I'm going to be blunt here. A new coach changes nothing. While we are a nation that is very well off, we are a third world country when it comes to footballing. Should we be surprised at today's result? No. Can we do better with what we have? Right now, no.

it's time to put our money where our mouths are and invest in the game at the grassroots level. Our MLS clubs are more American than Canadian. Our NASL clubs are haemorrhaging money with one having incredibly low fan support and another with not enough to break even, and neither look long for that league. No one shows up to support our USL, PDL, League1 Ontario or PLSQ clubs. Being a professional footballer is not achievable for most of those with the talent, and not an attractive career path for those who happen to get noticed.

Get out and support local. Until then, we can just hit F5 and refresh this thread 4 years from now.

Great point in theory but it loses it's any pull with the bolded above. There are 5 independent leagues fighting for supporter and sponsorship dollars, which in the States may work, but does more harm than good in Canada. The Canadian soccer scene is so fractured that by putting our money where our mouth is simply is just a waste of money, currently. There needs to be a concerted action to build a centralized Canadian league (or groups of leagues) where the supporter knows that each dollar a supporter spends supports the league(s) as a whole, not just sustaining their local team for a couple months in an american league.

To bring relevance to the thread, Floro has nothing to do with the above

[rob.notenboom]

4 hours ago, Vince193 said:

One thing that many did not critique until the end was that Floro was married to a system and formation and refused to change it no matter what happened. the 4-1-4-1 was great at the onset but when things mattered it collapsed. At the GC Canada was toothless and we scored two goals in this round of WCQ. Canada also gave up goals despite this system being set up to limit that as much as possible. 

Floro's personnel choices are also problematic. Jakovic was heavily relied on despite the dude never really being that good and that being compounded by the fact he hasn't played (2nd division) club ball on a consistent bases for more than a year. Doneil Henry is a damn head scratcher. Dude hasn't played at all for West Ham and can't stay healthy yet Floro relies on him heavily at right back, a position he does not play in his u21 reserve matches. Piette's been on a downward trajectory since leaving Germany and gets rewarded with call ups. JDG was suppose to retire in like 2013, but apparently Floro convinced him to stay on. I love his service tot he team but it has been time for him to retire from Canada ages ago.

Eddie Edward is a RB, and if Ledgerwood, Ouimette, JDG and Dixon can get called, no reason he couldn't have been. Same goes for Mallan Roberts.  Osorio is the biggest issue. Many in the media will say "he doesn't fit the system" well to that I tell them the system sucks. Larin is a goddamn island and Osorio (and maybe an Aleman) wold actually give him something to work with. Dude plays regular minuted for a good team in a decent league. How is that not grounds for a call up, I didn't know Canada was so deep with talent we could afford to leave him at home. 

This team could have been better. Floro limited them.

Clearly we have too many Mc-Dude-les.

[madmonte]

It sort of reminds me of TFC bringing in 4-3-3 and then telling everyone we'd be as good as the Dutch National team

[shermanator]

51 minutes ago, Oranje said:

Great point in theory but it loses it's any pull with the bolded above. There are 5 independent leagues fighting for supporter and sponsorship dollars, which in the States may work, but does more harm than good in Canada. The Canadian soccer scene is so fractured that by putting our money where our mouth is simply is just a waste of money, currently. There needs to be a concerted action to build a centralized Canadian league (or groups of leagues) where the supporter knows that each dollar a supporter spends supports the league(s) as a whole, not just sustaining their local team for a couple months in an american league.

To bring relevance to the thread, Floro has nothing to do with the above

The relevance is that the subject of the thread (Floro) is not the problem, just the simple and easy target. By keeping him, we achieve nothing. But by swapping him out, we also achieve nothing.

How many clubs in these leagues are competing for supporter and sponsorship dollars in Calgary? I only see one. Two if you count the new Whitecaps Calgary academy. Sounds like a very convenient excuse to me. I do agree with your point on centralized leagues, two of which happen to be L1O and PLSQ. But that doesn't mean we can't support those who are currently developing the talent today. What motivation does Calgary Foothills have to take part in, or switch to, a Canadian league when they aren't supported today? What motivation do any other local clubs have to take part when they see how the current setup is supported?