Floro Must Go

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

2 hours ago, shermanator said:

Also, I think this thread is kind of a moot point, because Floro's contract runs out after Canada's qualifying cycle is done. Which is on Wednesday barring a big time swing in goal differential. He'll be gone shortly, there should be no doubt about that. But the problem with our national team is much deeper than just the man at the top making some bizarre subs.

Why not wait for Wednesday before holding post mortems? Honduras and El Salvador don't like each other very much and have even fought a short war in the aftermath of an international soccer game:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Football_War

Stranger things have happened like TFC winning the Canadian Championship in Montreal when everybody thought it was a foregone conclusion for the Whitecaps, because the Impact weren't motivated for the game.

[1996]

Under Hart he was actually trying to use the best available players, unlike Floro who's player selections have been a head scratcher. Under Hart we were playing some decent soccer, we were a draw away from making it to the Hex as oppose to now a miracle away to making it. We had Ocean and Dero out for a few games who could have made a difference, at least Hart tried to call up players that were in form for their club teams and there were hardly any players that were not called up that I remember people had major debates over like we have with Floro. It's unfortunate that we had that crazy game in Honduras, however, up until that game things were going pretty good, and look at Hart now in the Hex with Trinidad while Floro will most likely being going home after playing an ugly 1900's backward bunker down soccer and with so many controversial player selections, a disaster more than Hart IMO!

[Kent]

15 hours ago, One American said:

How much better is the Trinidad and Tobago player pool? Pretty comparable, I would say. Yet they're leading tghe USA group at the moment. 

Yeah, if only we could have the guy that manages him. Then we would have sure fire success without any soul crushing losses.

[Unnamed Trialist]

I'll be brief. I would not coach a team to play like that, I'd be really angry if my players made those choices on the field, those errors. It is not how I conceive any professional soccer team should play. Yesterday the only adjustment I would have made was, in fact, mostly made, dropping back and not pressing too much, for reasons of heat.

I don't think Floro is a bad coach, but it is clear he is not good in a contemporary sense. He coaches us in a negative way, believing we are in fact not good enough to do what he wants. 

One key thing is lacking: telling your players you believe in them and that they can execute what you want, that you have faith in what they can do. It is quite clear this motivational aspect, in favour of a quality of play, is not there. You motivate to get the quality you think can help get results. 

[nolando]

1 hour ago, Kent said:

Yeah, if only we could have the guy that manages him. Then we would have sure fire success without any soul crushing losses.

And Carlyle Mitchell. Definitely need Carlyle Mitchell.

[Gopherbashi]

All else aside though, I'm going to laugh my ass off if we're somehow up 3-0 against El Sal on Tuesday and Floro decides to start subbing in CBs for strikers.

[The Ref]

In summary whether we do better with the next coach or not, Benito Floro must be fired for incompetence on Wednesday.

[Moldy9]

3 hours ago, Gopherbashi said:

All else aside though, I'm going to laugh my ass off if we're somehow up 3-0 against El Sal on Tuesday and Floro decides to start subbing in CBs for strikers.

Or worse, up 3-0 and subbing in strikers for CBs!!! Hey man, you never know! This old bugger has already done some weird shit. 

[kingvikingstad]

9 hours ago, RJB said:

When are we going to stop blaming the coach, and see that the problem goes well beyond that. Hart took t&t to the hex... so was he a bad coach when he was here? No, we were a bad team, and t&t are better than us. Floor is not the problem. He's brought stability and an improved style and confidence to this team. And the Ledgewood sib is a silly thing to look at, as it shows how naive people are to think only strikers can score; that there's nothing in the midfield that is needed. If we don't advance, he'll quit,but that would be a shame because I've finally enjoyed watching us play, as opposed to watching out of love.

I really don't think T&T are much better than us at all actually. Talent-wise, most of their players are domestics or playing in MLS/USL. 

I question what exactly you mean by "improved style"...

• We bunker every game and defend at all costs
• We barely attack or combine for passes in midfield
• We play a formation that wastes the talent of our attacking players
• We play corners short when they're basically our only chance of scoring
• We take out attacking players when losing and put in defensive ones despite needing a goal (I understand what you're getting at, but if the answer to any attacking problem is Ledgerwood you've already lost)

Add to the fact the questionable decisions over roster personnel, constantly playing players out of position, and the inclusion of Floro's favourites who may not deserve spots and you have a total mess, in my humble opinion. 

 

[TRM]

Floro has overseen a period when players who were eligible committed. If he has had anything to do with that then I thank him with all my heart. Tesho, Cyle, Scot & Jr are all desperately needed additions if for no other reason than to raise the bar for future considerations.

His tactics are suited to our previous player pool. Maybe he doesn't feel he can change horses in the middle of the race or he doesn't think the players can adapt to  a more fluid 4-4-2. I don't know. I don't like the 4-5-1 and feel it is limiting our current players.

That said we are not out of it and we'll see what Tuesday brings. Hex or bust!!!

[RJB]

I think that perhaps we are overestimating the type of team we are.  I get that we wish we were running the table here, but I don't think things are as bleak as people are letting on.  A serious question that I want an answer to, is what happens to this thread if we somehow manage to advance? 

Floro is one of a long line of coaches who have not done the job - we haven't made the hex since 1998 wcq - and it's ridiculous to call for his head.  First off, we still have a chance to advance, and second, it's as if you would expect a different result.  Yes, our talent is better, but so is everybody else.  How we now have 5 pro clubs - gasp! - and players in MLS, other countries do too, together with even more pro clubs.  So yes we're better, but they are all better still.

At a certain point, we should all look and say that the players aren't executing, and they have for twenty years now. 

[king1010]

7 hours ago, RJB said:

I think that perhaps we are overestimating the type of team we are.  I get that we wish we were running the table here, but I don't think things are as bleak as people are letting on.  A serious question that I want an answer to, is what happens to this thread if we somehow manage to advance? 

Floro is one of a long line of coaches who have not done the job - we haven't made the hex since 1998 wcq - and it's ridiculous to call for his head.  First off, we still have a chance to advance, and second, it's as if you would expect a different result.  Yes, our talent is better, but so is everybody else.  How we now have 5 pro clubs - gasp! - and players in MLS, other countries do too, together with even more pro clubs.  So yes we're better, but they are all better still.

At a certain point, we should all look and say that the players aren't executing, and they have for twenty years now. 

Honduras is not better in 2016 compared to 2012. 

I dont think its ridiculous to call for his head. Its pretty standard to let a coach go after a wcq cycle where we do not see improvement. His contract ran until we were knocked out of this cycle iirc, so the CSA must have been thinking the same thing. 

In international football you dont get multiple cycles with the same coach when there have been zero results. 

[jonovision]

7 hours ago, RJB said:

I think that perhaps we are overestimating the type of team we are.  I get that we wish we were running the table here, but I don't think things are as bleak as people are letting on.  A serious question that I want an answer to, is what happens to this thread if we somehow manage to advance? 

Floro is one of a long line of coaches who have not done the job - we haven't made the hex since 1998 wcq - and it's ridiculous to call for his head.  First off, we still have a chance to advance, and second, it's as if you would expect a different result.  Yes, our talent is better, but so is everybody else.  How we now have 5 pro clubs - gasp! - and players in MLS, other countries do too, together with even more pro clubs.  So yes we're better, but they are all better still.

At a certain point, we should all look and say that the players aren't executing, and they have for twenty years now. 

I wouldn't say that the Honduras squad is better now than in 2012, but I wholeheartedly agree with everything else. Every 4 years we dump on the coach, and while they haven't been world beaters, I don't think the blame can fall squarely on their shoulders. The common denominator is the players and in most instances they simply haven't been good enough.

[rightback]

11 minutes ago, king1010 said:

In international football you dont get multiple cycles with the same coach when there have been zero results. 

It depends what you mean. Certainly national coaches survive multiple cycles without necessarily advancing further in tournaments. It's more a question as to whether things are going in the right direction isn't it? We're not talking Chelsea and Man U here.

[toontownman]

For me you have to look at where we have come under his tenure and ask if we met the aims we set out for. The main goal was making the hex, which looks like he has probably failed at. However it's a long game in this country. The larger question is have we advanced in style of play, effectiveness and are we on a trajectory that shows we will continue to improve on and off the pitch.

When he came in the CSA and floro set out goals of changing our style of play and growing a culture across our programs. I think we had initial success as floro got bedded in. In some of our friendlies we started passing the ball well, looked more organized in defence and looked dangerous on the break. 

We have added a great amount to our talent pool but it seems over the past year at the most pivotal time things have unravelled. It is in Floros dedication to his system or inability to change that we have limited ourselves.

The defensive tactics were justified as necessary due to our talent pool and some could say we were harmed in hondurus by the key losses of Johnson and JDG in midfield who when dominating the game give us a chance in the final third. However it is in the last third of the pitch we have our strongest new talent. I feel the wingers have had the life coached out of them in terms of attacking (the natural part of their game) to placate the defensive tactics. We have left the best striker and most exciting talent we have had in years isolated and effectively useless up front with no support.  

I don't have as much of a problem in defensive tactics = effective football, the problem is I don't think it had been and there has been no plan b or a complete reluctance to switch from plan a even when it is both in the teams best interests or necessary due to player availability. 

I think it's more than fair to point out as RJB does that the players need to take a share of the blame. Players all too often get off lightly for weak performances and the manager suffers. I can't, however, help but think it is also the manager and coaching staff's job to motivate. Is that happening? Looked like it was at some point but not in the last 4 games.  

Do you feel the players are passionate and willing to fight enough? That has been my biggest gripe over the past year. Does Floro instill that in the team? There is a fine line between losing your cool and staying focused to get the job done, but when the later is not happening, coasting through doesn't help. 

Ultimately if Floros tactic is using one formation and game plan because that is what will work best with our talent pool his tactic simply isnt working. 

 

 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, rightback said:

It depends what you mean. Certainly national coaches survive multiple cycles without necessarily advancing further in tournaments. It's more a question as to whether things are going in the right direction isn't it? We're not talking Chelsea and Man U here.

 

Yes but those coaches call up their best players and don't hold grudges.

[Moldy9]

10 hours ago, RJB said:

 

Floro is one of a long line of coaches who have not done the job - we haven't made the hex since 1998 wcq - and it's ridiculous to call for his head.  First off, we still have a chance to advance, and second, it's as if you would expect a different result.  Yes, our talent is better, but so is everybody else.  How we now have 5 pro clubs - gasp! - and players in MLS, other countries do too, together with even more pro clubs.  So yes we're better, but they are all better still.

At a certain point, we should all look and say that the players aren't executing, and they have for twenty years now. 

I agree that other nations are improving however I believe 2 things: Canadian men's soccer is way behind the times and is just catching up to everyone else in the world so yes having 5 pro clubs, state of the art training facilities (like in Mtl where Real and Chelsea use) and youth academies is a major advancement for our nation, unlike other countries who more or less already established.

My second point is there's a rise and fall in sport and success comes and goes in waves. Look at Man U on top of the world now gone. Chelsea down then up for a while then down. Spain were under performers then hit a hot streak with their golden generation now they're back to normal. Greece 2004, France 98-2000.  Same you can say for anybody, any team, any club when measuring success and failure, championships not really necessary in order to measure. There's a good crop and then there are fruitless periods. So soon I believe Canada will have its moment again, hit its stride, it's generation. Just like WC86, and 2000, 2002 (3) 2007(tied 3) Gold Cups. And we even haven't reached our full potential compared to almost everyone on the world. In Business terms if you wanted to invest money in Canadian Soccer stock now would be a good time when our infrastructure is still growing.  The world better watch out when Canada will commit itself fully to this sport. Cause when we do we will put the focus on development and coaching and attacking everything and we will invest our wealth into state of the art facilities. It may take another 10-20 years to realize this but we are in a global market.  

[Unnamed Trialist]

I think saying we don't have the players, saying the coach does not have good enough material, is a bad argument. The whole point is to raise the level by coaching, and by related things (proper handling of the team, training, camps, by the CSA). The point is not to definitively come up with a clearly superior group of players and then get corresponding results. That is unrealistic.

Yes, we do not have a deep roster. And we have a few players who are better than what we saw in certain positions the other day. We are not amazing, are comparable perhaps to many other Concacaf nations, perhaps in the group from 4th to 8th best in the region in terms of players. 

But the whole point is to get results over and above our actual talent level. As is seen over and over again in our region, what all other nations apart from the US, Costa Rica and Mexico have done, each at their own particular moment, in the last 20 years. What we did in our Gold Cup win, also relying on some luck. Every WC cycle a couple teams with similar talent to ours rise to the occasion and have a lovely WC experience. What we are asking for. Usually modest, usually not getting out of a first round, but still fairly dignified. 

Every year every league has a team that does this too, an underdog with a modest budget and group of players having a great season. And usually the coach, the atmosphere, the overall ambition, individuals rising above their normal capacity, the way the team works together, even the management, are cited as the factors.

All we are asking is for some coach to come along and do the same with what we have, take us just a touch above our talent level to results that are better than what we deserve on paper. It can't be that a half dozen other teams in our region are able to do this, but we are not.

[Moldy9]

We have reason to scrutinize Floro, with all the points mentioned. If we make the Hex by a miracle should CSA grow some balls and just fire him? Look at Mexico! They're undefeated in the group and still people are not happy with their coach because of the Copa America. Seriously if Mexico let him go, we should hire him to replace Floro and maybe we can get someone that makes logical call ups, game strategies, starting lineups and substitutions. 

It would be a major coup. 

[rightback]

What lost us that last game was two bad defensive errors. The other chances they had (and should have scored on) again were defensive errors and at some point what can a coach do about it? He can encourage and teach and repeat all he wants but, in our case, these players are simply unable to execute the basics. Defensively, they don't have the playing intelligence to anticipate well enough or sufficient pace and athleticism (apart from maybe James) to recover when they misjudge. Mark your man, track the runner, pressure the man with the ball and we come out of there with a win or a tie...we did enough offensively. And with that result, we're all ecstatic and no hand-wringing in this forum and the coach keeps his job. 

[Dub Narcotic]

Give me a break, what was the xG for Friday's game? Probably something like 5-0 for Honduras. When you are under constant pressure and giving up great shooting opportunities eventually some will go in. 

[Grizzly]

7 hours ago, Moldy9 said:

We have reason to scrutinize Floro, with all the points mentioned. If we make the Hex by a miracle should CSA grow some balls and just fire him? Look at Mexico! They're undefeated in the group and still people are not happy with their coach because of the Copa America. Seriously if Mexico let him go, we should hire him to replace Floro and maybe we can get someone that makes logical call ups, game strategies, starting lineups and substitutions. 

It would be a major coup. 

So some of our supporters think Floro is a bad coach so we should hire a coach from a team whose fans also think he is a bad coach? I am pretty sure if Floro were coaching Mexico he would be playing more attractive and offensive football than he is with Canada and Mexico would be going to the next round with 6 wins too especially given their altitude advantage at Azteca. Mexico is in 1st place because they are a way better team with a way better home field advantage not because they have a better coach.

I think Floro has been a better coach who has brought more to the program than any of Hart, Mitchell or Yallop even if I haven't agreed with all of his decisions. He was as good a coach as we could probably have hired 4 years ago with our budget and attractiveness as a national team. If we don't make up the goal differential (it is definitely doable if Mexico plays its part) his reign will be over as it should be and we should try to upgrade on him. However, if we are going to hire a Colombian coach it certainly should not be Osorio in my opinion, I think Reinaldo Rueda would be the perfect fit for Canada.

[rightback]

37 minutes ago, Dub Narcotic said:

Give me a break, what was the xG for Friday's game? Probably something like 5-0 for Honduras. When you are under constant pressure and giving up great shooting opportunities eventually some will go in. 

I thought our strategy for this game was to focus on defence, be hard to break down, don't worry about possession, break up the rhythm of the opposition as much as possible and try to score on a counter or set piece. Given the talent available, I can't help but agree with that approach, however, the players were unable to execute well enough to be successful. Really, what should we have done instead? Did you see the Slovakia vs. England game today? Slovakia had absolutely no interest in possession or scoring a goal and were extremely unlucky to lose...and they were down to 10 men for the last 30 minutes. 

[BearcatSA]

22 minutes ago, rightback said:

Given the talent available, I can't help but agree with that approach, however, the players were unable to execute well enough to be successful.

 Considering the playing conditions, it doesn't help when you have a guy who usually plays CB (Edgar) playing in a more run around position in midfield as well as starting a guy who has no club and no pre season (Hoillet) in the very demanding flank mid/winger position.  Heck, the guy who should be used to these type of conditions in the summer (Akindele at Dallas), looked completely gassed before halftime.

We are still in the hunt because of some big time shop stopping by Borjan.  So if we get through, thank him for his efforts in San Pedro Sula. 

[The Ref]

Even though this pertains to U.S. mens soccer, I concur with what these 3 women said in this 8 minute video.  Most if not all applies to Canada as well.  It explains a lot of truths.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mWh3MDgCC4A