Guest Posted September 6, 2016 Share Posted September 6, 2016 6 hours ago, shamrock said: Anyone who believes this is delusional. I guess i am delusional. Sure our depth is not the best but it is still as good as Honduras, Panama, and TnT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dyslexic nam Posted September 6, 2016 Share Posted September 6, 2016 Most of the posts defending Floro come down to the idea that our talent pool simply isn't deep enough to compete in the region, and therefore we can't blame the coach for our failure to qualify (barring a longshot hitting tonight). While I see the attraction in this line of thinking, it tends to ignore the other factors that people are citing as grounds for getting another coach. Specifically: - tactics that seem to limit our chances (playing defensively against El Salvador B/C/D). - squad selection that seems counter-intuitive (leaving out guys like Johnson and Osorio) and which is defended on the basis of reasons that don't stand up to scrutiny (not playing them due to match fitness and inability to go 90 minutes, while playing non-starters who were demonstrably poor and unable to go 90 minutes - against a backdrop of some personality conflict with at least some of the dropped players). - substitutions that seem to throw away chances. People are defending the Larin sub, but I think someone like Haber - with decent hold up play - could have allowed an outlet for the long ball with a release for Ricketts. May not have been effective, but it would have been something - and better than us relying on a blazing scoring streak tonight that simply does not mesh with what we have demonstrated so far this cycle. Maybe it is true that our player pool will not allow us to get o the hex - and would not have been sufficient regardless of who was at the help. But I remain to be convinced that Floro has in any way maximized our chances of doing so. And I would argue that the decision-making we have seen seems to have hurt, rather than helped, our chances of advancing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floortom Posted September 6, 2016 Share Posted September 6, 2016 The idea that our pool is too terrible for the Hex is ridiculous. A 1-0 win vs El Salvador's B team would have gotten us through. Are we really staking our pool is so bad that it's unrealistic to expect a win under those circumstances?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rightback Posted September 6, 2016 Share Posted September 6, 2016 1 hour ago, canta15 said: I guess i am delusional. Sure our depth is not the best but it is still as good as Honduras, Panama, and TnT Honduras scored on a lovely cross to the far post and a shot from the top of the box into the bottom corner. They had some well worked give and goes and well weighted through balls that split the defense. If our depth was as good as theirs, I'd think we'd see something like that occasionally. Not to mention that's against a team that's trying to park the bus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingvikingstad Posted September 6, 2016 Share Posted September 6, 2016 8 hours ago, shamrock said: Anyone who believes this is delusional. Name the teams in CONCACAF with a significantly higher level of talent than we have. And don't point to NT results, because that brings the ability of the coach into play, just talent based on the player pool available. My guess is the answer is 3 - Mexico, USA, Costa Rica. I'll phrase it another way: other than those three, is there a team in CONCACAF you feel we'd have little chance against on our home pitch? As someone else mentioned, we were a goal away in El Salvador from making it through to the hex this cycle, and were a goal at home away from making it to the hex last cycle. To me, this suggests talent level isn't the primary stumbling block to making the hex as I don't think anyone would say we're punching above our weight by being a goal away. The difference between Hart's reign and Floro's is that I felt we were unlucky to advance last cycle as we dominated Honduras at home, but just couldn't score the goal we needed despite multiple great chances. Had we lost 2-1 to Honduras in that final game, I actually would have been happy for Hart to continue as coach as I felt we were moving the right direction. This cycle, I felt like we've held on for dear life to get third place simply because the coach didn't believe we had the talent to attack at all - even at home. Seriously, what evidence is there we are making progress? All our youth teams failed to qualify for the last WCs. We failed in our bid for the Olympics under Floro's helm (with his inexperienced son coaching, you know he had a say). We failed at the GC (didn't score) and didn't even come close to making it to COPA. We have been shite so far this cycle with two goals in five games and it looks like will be out before the hex. Add this to our archaic, mindnumbing, negative, anti-football style of play or any of the questionable decisions he's made in selection or in-game and it's simply not good enough. To any Floro supporter, what does Floro have to do to justify failure in your eyes? I mean, if the players are so bad why not just hire any two-bit hack to coach the team then, because it doesn't matter anyways and we can just roll over and die (much like we have these past three years anyways). ....but yea, I'm the delusional one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deschamp86 Posted September 6, 2016 Share Posted September 6, 2016 Our player pool is good enough to get to the Hex. Its not good enough to progress from there, but it certainly is good enough for the Hex. Floro's biggest issue is that he doesn't set the team up to play in the system they are most suited for. Even if Johnson is not 90 minutes fit (I guarantee he is more so than Henry and Hoilett for example), there is no reason Johnson shouldn't be there as a sub. I am not one of those that think Osorio should be starting, but I do think that he should be there as a sub as well. He clearly holds grudges against players, and unlucky for us who have spent another four years following the team, he doesn't care that he "cuts off his nose to spite his face" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rheo Posted September 6, 2016 Share Posted September 6, 2016 I know I'm in the minority but given where we were four years ago I believe the program is in a much better place. After 8-1 nobody believed that we'd be anywhere near where we are now. They'd of thought we'd of been eliminated before Belize and we'd of all missed out on Benny's. The instant gratification mentality is maddening. Rebooting the program everytime we don't get as far as the masses want hasn't helped before, why would it be differenet now. If Floro gets fired and when the next coach doesn't get us in the hex in four years everyone will be on here wanting us to fire him (or her) and start over again because apparently so many people on here know more than the people paid to do it. Don't get me wrong, I don't agree with everything Floro does. I think Will Johnson should be there. Just rebooting the program time after time isn't going to get us anywhere. I'm not saying Floro should be given an unending run but I'd say at least until the Gold Cup and decide from there. Give the program some stability for once and let's see what happens. Now I'm going to put on some fire proof clothing because I'm sure I'm going to get torched for this lol. Allez Les Rouges my friends. Remember we're all here because of the same love and passion for the team even if we disagree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unnamed Trialist Posted September 6, 2016 Share Posted September 6, 2016 I think the only thing you can say in Floro's favour is that it has always been close, in every key competition we have always been a goal away from success, relatively speaking. We needed a goal late (or avoid one) to advance in Gold Cup, that would have set us up for the Copa, we needed a goal vs. ES there or one late vs. Honduras the other day. So we've been close. But in the end it matters little, as now we are basically 4 goals away from success, so unless we can score three, Floro is going to break his pattern of just missing the objective. There comes a time, like it or not, when the players have to just ignore the coach a bit and take on the responsibility themselves to find a way to get the result they need. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theaub Posted September 6, 2016 Share Posted September 6, 2016 Is that really different than where we were 4 years ago? In 2011 we were a 91st minute Panama goal away from the quarterfinals, and in 2012 we were a home goal against Honduras away from the hex. The question is really what you want out of the national team manager. We all know the true issues with soccer in this country lay far, far beyond the results of the MNT. But are we looking for someone to manage the team while completely reforming the youth system (ie Klinsmann)? Or is that the job of the CSA/TD's etc and the NT manager is just there to try to get results for the country. If its the former, then yeah there's some issues with firing the guy. But I see him more in the latter role - and I don't think firing the MNT coach really matters in that case if he doesn't pull off some miracle tonight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rightback Posted September 6, 2016 Share Posted September 6, 2016 19 minutes ago, kingvikingstad said: To any Floro supporter, what does Floro have to do to justify failure in your eyes? Losing 8-1 in Honduras would have done it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
king1010 Posted September 6, 2016 Share Posted September 6, 2016 1 hour ago, rightback said: Honduras scored on a lovely cross to the far post and a shot from the top of the box into the bottom corner. They had some well worked give and goes and well weighted through balls that split the defense. If our depth was as good as theirs, I'd think we'd see something like that occasionally. Not to mention that's against a team that's trying to park the bus. you can't compare two well worked plays and say "their depth is better than us because they scored on a lovely cross and shot from the top of the box" De Jong scored one of the best goals of the year in Washington last year from long range. We must have amazing depth because of it...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
king1010 Posted September 6, 2016 Share Posted September 6, 2016 1 hour ago, Rheo said: I know I'm in the minority but given where we were four years ago I believe the program is in a much better place. After 8-1 nobody believed that we'd be anywhere near where we are now. They'd of thought we'd of been eliminated before Belize and we'd of all missed out on Benny's. The instant gratification mentality is maddening. Rebooting the program everytime we don't get as far as the masses want hasn't helped before, why would it be differenet now. If Floro gets fired and when the next coach doesn't get us in the hex in four years everyone will be on here wanting us to fire him (or her) and start over again because apparently so many people on here know more than the people paid to do it. Don't get me wrong, I don't agree with everything Floro does. I think Will Johnson should be there. Just rebooting the program time after time isn't going to get us anywhere. I'm not saying Floro should be given an unending run but I'd say at least until the Gold Cup and decide from there. Give the program some stability for once and let's see what happens. Now I'm going to put on some fire proof clothing because I'm sure I'm going to get torched for this lol. Allez Les Rouges my friends. Remember we're all here because of the same love and passion for the team even if we disagree. Minutes before the 8-1 game many people thought our program was in excellent shape. One game and the whole program was in shambles. Hart had our team in excellent position. Had we got a draw in that game everyone would be saying how much upside we had. I'd say 3 years with the same coach is pretty stable. Unstable would be changing coaches during the middle of a WCQ cycle. Changing coaches after a WCQ cycle has concluded doesn't affect stability IMO. 4 Year world cup qualifying cycles see lots of turnover from players (hutch, de guz gone). That would cause more instability than coaching. I'd argue leaving players who were once pegged to captain the team like Will Johnson off the roster for questionable reasons(see starting unattached unfit players) adds more instability than anything else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rightback Posted September 6, 2016 Share Posted September 6, 2016 5 minutes ago, king1010 said: De Jong scored one of the best goals of the year in Washington last year from long range. We must have amazing depth because of it...... Wonderful goal, even better than Dunfield's against Ecuador. We score a goal like that at least once every 5 or 6 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
king1010 Posted September 6, 2016 Share Posted September 6, 2016 Just now, rightback said: Wonderful goal, even better than Dunfield's against Ecuador. We score a goal like that at least once every 5 or 6 years. = amazing depth #logic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpg75 Posted September 6, 2016 Share Posted September 6, 2016 If we had scored at home against Honduras in 2012 the away leg wouldn't have mattered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ruffian Posted September 6, 2016 Share Posted September 6, 2016 17 hours ago, BearcatSA said: I'm surprised he doesn't play that 4-2-3-1 as opposed to 4-1-4-1 -------------------Larin----------------- Hoillet----------Arfield-------Ricketts/Akindele/Jackson -----------Hutchinson--Edgar------- I'd prefer the Whitecaps guy back more to support Hutchinson with the Burnley man providing the attacking support. That may have helped them keep their shape better because they sure got stretched, especially on the play leading up to the winning goal (there's my armchair quarterback contribution!). If we are going with drastic changes that Floro won't make then why not put the guy that plays that position for the Whitecaps rather than another guy on the Whitecaps who doesn't: -------------------Larin----------------- Hoillet----------Arfield-------Ricketts/Akindele/Jackson -----------Hutchinson--Teibert------- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul-collins Posted September 6, 2016 Share Posted September 6, 2016 17 minutes ago, jpg75 said: If we had scored at home against Honduras in 2012 the away leg wouldn't have mattered. That was a dispiriting game. Our failure to qualify seems to hinge on 0-0 games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deschamp86 Posted September 6, 2016 Share Posted September 6, 2016 1 hour ago, Rheo said: The instant gratification mentality is maddening. Rebooting the program everytime we don't get as far as the masses want hasn't helped before, why would it be differenet now. If Floro gets fired and when the next coach doesn't get us in the hex in four years everyone will be on here wanting us to fire him (or her) and start over again because apparently so many people on here know more than the people paid to do it. The biggest issue is that its not the same as having a bad season and giving the coach time to build upon it. Its 4 years. If he fails to reach the Hex and is given another 4 years to do it again, that's 8 years gone by. That's a generation of players that have been wasted. Its more than likely we could end up hiring someone else who is not fit for the job. The thing is, Floro was a bit of a flashy hire. What we truly need is someone who knows the region and has qualified for at least the Hex before, or a proven MLS coach (one who understands the type of players that our country produces and can find the tactics to fit them, while not hindering them. Someone who understands that players can't be available for every single friendly when they are in the middle of an MLS schedule that doesn't take time off Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ray Posted September 6, 2016 Share Posted September 6, 2016 2 hours ago, Rheo said: Don't get me wrong, I don't agree with everything Floro does. I think Will Johnson should be there. Just rebooting the program time after time isn't going to get us anywhere. I'm not saying Floro should be given an unending run but I'd say at least until the Gold Cup and decide from there. Give the program some stability for once and let's see what happens. The problem with giving Benito Floro until the next Gold Cup is that if nothing changes, the MNT program will have lost a year. If Floro decides to stick with the current system (which to date, has not been enough), should we keep him on? If he decides to change Canada's game, could another coach not do the same? Do we keep Floro merely to provide stability? Whatever the CSA decides, they have to decide within the next few months. Either commit to Benito for another 4 years or look for another coach. The wait and see approach has at least as much risk associated with it as a program reboot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Ref Posted September 6, 2016 Share Posted September 6, 2016 I wonder if anywhere else a Federations gives a coach 4 years to do something. Only in Canada. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheeta Posted September 6, 2016 Share Posted September 6, 2016 If his team doesn't come out Hell bent for goals, and stays with that mind frame for the 90, I have a hard time justifying any extension. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GimliJetsMan Posted September 6, 2016 Share Posted September 6, 2016 If we don't pull out the miracle tonight, I would be in favour of dropping him. We need to see some progression. Making the Hex would have provided so much value and experience to this team, as well as meaningful soccer for fans for the next year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rheo Posted September 6, 2016 Share Posted September 6, 2016 50 minutes ago, Cheeta said: If his team doesn't come out Hell bent for goals, and stays with that mind frame for the 90, I have a hard time justifying any extension. And if they do come out like this and score some but give up others on the counter they'll still want his head lol. He's in a no win situation on the board here for the masses Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Different Perspective Posted September 6, 2016 Share Posted September 6, 2016 12 minutes ago, Rheo said: And if they do come out like this and score some but give up others on the counter they'll still want his head lol. He's in a no win situation on the board here for the masses Not true ... people here will think higher of him that he is still not a stubborn you know what. Coaching is adapting to changing scenarios and being prepared for them. Also, he knows what he signed up for - if he gets us through he will reap the spoils ... if not, them the breaks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theaub Posted September 6, 2016 Share Posted September 6, 2016 40 minutes ago, Rheo said: And if they do come out like this and score some but give up others on the counter they'll still want his head lol. He's in a no win situation on the board here for the masses He's forced himself into this no-win situation by not either winning in El Salvador or drawing in Honduras If ol' Fresh Prince of Donair head coach can get us to the same situation as glorious ex-Real Madrid manager who cares who we bring in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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