Can Soccer dethrone Hockey as Canada's national game?

[kj52]

It seems simple to me. Canada, like the U.S., China, Australia, Ireland,etc.,etc. is a multi-sport country. It always has been and likely always will be and that's not a bad thing. I have no doubt that soccer will continue it's growth both in the big urban and more rural centres but it's not about replacing other sports, it's about complementing them.

[Fort York Redcoat1555362293]

the Jays have sold out their season opener and TFC did not. I do realize one game does not make a season.

Hockey in the USA has had tremendous increases in participation, in, of all places, California and Atlanta but that has still not translated to national viewership or increased popularity vs other sports.

But what really pisses some of us off is just the arrogance of some soccer fans who disparage other sports with zero evidence and when confronted with factual evidence, deny, deny, deny.

No media person has anything to lose by soccer achieving popularity, it would be just a different beat for a reporter. I'm sure most would want to cover hockey in Canada but somebody has to cover rugby and cricket. If you want to eat, you'll do it.

Jays sellout openers quite often and by the second game attendance is a fraction but that's not relevant to the short term lifespan of the sport though. Basball sells differently than other sports.

Media people have preferences like any of us. It only depends upon how professional these reporters are to gauge their love of the sport they cover.

[paul-collins]

Yeah, with 81 home games, there's always a big push for the first and it tails off pretty heavily for the next month or so. Jays also are indoors.

The media are going to have to adapt, of course; there will be a need for more soccer coverage as the top levels grow and mature into a consistently watchable (to the casual fan, not to us - we're already watching) product. It's not about *if* but rather about *when*.

[argh1]

Yeah but...........

It wasn't that long ago when the Lynx we're the top team in town playing in front of mom's and dad's.

Then came the MLS. Where were the soccer fans during the USL years?

Is there a soccer equivalent to the Marlies, the St Mikes Majors, the Maple Leafs in baseball?

Yes, I agree with others that have posted. I'd love to see soccer grow as a spectator sport......but not at the expense of other sports but in addition too.

The Mem Cup at the Hershey Centre is 90% sold out by reports.

Fans can be fickle. Not that many years ago people flocked to the SkyDome hoping it would rain to see the roof close.

Now Rogers Centre is seen as a big concrete thing with no atmosphere for any sport.

[Fort York Redcoat1555362293]

There are only so many seats in the sports landscape.

[Macksam]

It's not the prospect of soccer being the most popular that people are taking issue with, it's

1) the absolute vitriol displayed towards other sports that are just as legitimate in Canada's spectrum

2) the dogmatic obsession with soccer being the only real sport around. They defame hockey, baseball, football, etc, etc. If you say you're a fan of other sports in addition to soccer it's as though you've just murdered their pope.

I haven't seen that in this thread.

The only vitriol I have seen is from some guy named Joe MacCarthy being adament about how Canadians don't watch soccer. This is a guy from like Saskatchewan trying to tell me what's popular in my own community, looking like a clown in the process. He seems to think TV ratings are the bible, ignoring profitability, what the actual split in the ratings is, paid attendance and what not.

This is a guy that has already shown forms of xenophobic behaviour before by starting a topic of how "multiculturalism has failed in Britain" thinking it has something related to Canada.

Here's a gem from him from that thread, "Common sense at long last, could this be the beginning of the end of political correctness and when will Canada wake up" - JM

[Free kick]

There are only so many seats in the sports landscape.

I agree but I think that what you meant is that is the market place is only of certain size and its like a pie whereby soccer has a piece of it. So real meaningful growth only occurs by taking a larger piece at the expense of someone else.

As for other points in this 26 page thread, anyone with a real passion wants to see it grow, then there are those who view the game in generalist sense (much in the same way that some of us get caught up paying passing attention to, say,golf, only when there is a cnd in contention), and/or are here to be a voice for their region in geopolitical sense. Well they are ones telling us how unpopular the sport is, how the sport needs to acquiesce to their needs, accusing others of trashing CFL or hockey...etc. Well, if you (not you specifically) keep trashing the sport of soccer in soccer forum, someone will counter point or fight back inevitably with some strong arguments.

Soccer is growth sport in a commercial sense. The Franchise values of the three major MLS teams are anywhere from 100-150 mill judging from expansion fees paid and published valuation reports. Some CFL teams are being given away. Yet some insist of portraying the game of soccer in generalist amateur way and some how beneath the CFL or even amateur (junior) hockey. Well, the sport didn't get to where it is if its following and support was comparable. We are not going to make head way in international scene if we continue to view soccer in the same way as Volleyball or speed skating.

The sport of soccer is/has a strong presence and culture in the three biggest cities in this country and its got (unlike other mainstream sports propped up the mainstream media) the demographics you want to have as growing business in Canada. You can tell that there is a massive drop off elsewhere in the country, but would we rather have the opposite?

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

It's not the prospect of soccer being the most popular that people are taking issue with, it's

1) the absolute vitriol displayed towards other sports that are just as legitimate in Canada's spectrum

2) the dogmatic obsession with soccer being the only real sport around. They defame hockey, baseball, football, etc, etc. If you say you're a fan of other sports in addition to soccer it's as though you've just murdered their pope.

As with Macksam above I' m not sure where you are seeing these things in this thread. Personally I think it's great to see people who have tended to be fans of other sports in the past showing a greater interest in soccer in recent years. The only thing that tends to irk me a bit is when people who fit that category act as if nothing of any consequence ever happened in Canadian soccer prior to the point they decided to tune in. In reality, the latent interest in pro soccer has been there for decades in the three largest cities and surrounding areas based on the massive post-WWII immigration wave from traditional soccer countries.

Legendary players like Sir Stanley Matthews, Eusebio and Roberto Bettega played for Toronto based teams before large crowds long before the advent of the DP rule and players like JDG and Mista signing for TFC after all. Even with the original CSL era Blizzard in the late 80s and early 90s Zico was very close to signing at one point. All that has been missing has been a viable economic model for a sustainable and profitable genuinely division one level league that people actually find watchable enough that they will pay to watch it on a regular basis. The ECPSL in the 60s and NASL in the late 70s and early 80s were a case of close but no cigar in that regard, but now with MLS there are plenty of reasons for believing that the corner has finally been well and truly turned.

Eclipsing hockey clearly isn't on the agenda at this point (although people should maybe bear in mind that never is a very long time) but I think it is reasonable to contemplate whether soccer can start to eclipse the CFL and baseball in popularity terms over the next couple of decades and as soccer fans on a soccer board that should be a natural enough aspiration for a lot of people on here, in my opinion, although I do understand that some people will be CFL and baseball fans as well and may have stronger loyalties to those leagues than they do to soccer.

[Joe MacCarthy]

We know you haven't seen the vitriol Macksam because you are the primary cause. Seeing as you don't read the posts or provide evidence and make things up in your head, about the only useful thing you've provided is a new Vs catchphrase "I wanna see the GTA breakdown"

Where you got I'm from Saskatchewan is a wonder to me, did that come out of your head too? You already know about paid attendance, this past year it was about equal, two years ago the Argos drew 10,000 more per game. You deny or ignore any proven fact that doesn't fit with your zealotry and to deflect from that you've taken to calling me a xenophobe.

Obviously you're trying to deflect the argument because you can't argue it on facts which people other than me have posted. I don't mind you accusing me of stuff and calling me names because it shows you can't argue the debate on it's own merits.

Come out of your little GTA ghetto, and experience the ROC, it's a big country out here. Funny about that Argo/Lions game last year, that of the 800,000 who watched, none of them were from Toronto. Strange.

[Redcoatsforever]

Eclipsing hockey clearly isn't on the agenda at this point (although people should maybe bear in mind that never is a very long time) but I think it is reasonable to contemplate whether soccer can start to eclipse the CFL and baseball in popularity terms over the next couple of decades and as soccer fans on a soccer board that should be a natural enough aspiration for a lot of people on here, in my opinion, although I do understand that some people will be CFL and baseball fans as well and may have stronger loyalties to those leagues than they do to soccer.

Soccer is far and away my favourite sport. I've been a fan for most of my life (there was a fair part after birth that I can't really speak to, but there it is...) I relish the possibility of soccer becoming a much bigger sport. I want a Trans-Canadian top-flight league someday, with lucrative TV contracts and CONCACAF Champions League contenders.

That being said, in my life I've seen many soccer fields built. I remember a time- and I'm still a fairly young man -when finding a full-size quality pitch in London was like pulling teeth. I don't take issue with people wanting soccer to simply and naturally grow more popular than other sports, it's the desire to see the death of Canadian football and baseball. Having grown up with few places to play a real game, I wouldn't want to subject anybody to it. It really sucks not having a place to play and watch your favourite game. For instance, Labatt Park is (disputably) the longest operating baseball diamond in the world. I would hate to see it converted to a soccer pitch, when it would be so much more of a triumph for the beautiful game to have its own unique stadium built.

Alas, on that last point, The Cove and TD Waterhouse shall have to suffice for now...

[argh1]

I agree but I think that what you meant is that is the market place is only of certain size and its like a pie whereby soccer has a piece of it. So real meaningful growth only occurs by taking a larger piece at the expense of someone else.

As for other points in this 26 page thread, anyone with a real passion wants to see it grow, then there are those who view the game in generalist sense (much in the same way that some of us get caught up paying passing attention to, say,golf, only when there is a cnd in contention), and/or are here to be a voice for their region in geopolitical sense. Well they are ones telling us how unpopular the sport is, how the sport needs to acquiesce to their needs, accusing others of trashing CFL or hockey...etc. Well, if you (not you specifically) keep trashing the sport of soccer in soccer forum, someone will counter point or fight back inevitably with some strong arguments.

Soccer is growth sport in a commercial sense. The Franchise values of the three major MLS teams are anywhere from 100-150 mill judging from expansion fees paid and published valuation reports. Some CFL teams are being given away. Yet some insist of portraying the game of soccer in generalist amateur way and some how beneath the CFL or even amateur (junior) hockey. Well, the sport didn't get to where it is if its following and support was comparable. We are not going to make head way in international scene if we continue to view soccer in the same way as Volleyball or speed skating.

The sport of soccer is/has a strong presence and culture in the three biggest cities in this country and its got (unlike other mainstream sports propped up the mainstream media) the demographics you want to have as growing business in Canada. You can tell that there is a massive drop off elsewhere in the country, but would we rather have the opposite?

I'm sorry I thought we were discussing the GAME of Soccer vs the GAME of Hockey.

Not the MLS vs NHL or CFL or MLB or NBA.

These are all great leagues but the GAME is bigger than the leagues.

The question is in CANADA how does soccer stand up to hockey and can soccer dethrone hockey as CANADA's NATIONAL game.

Not can MLS compete with NHL, CFL, NBA or MLB.

In respect to soccer if you dig below how great MLS is doing. How is soccer doing with those that open there wallets to pay to see games in CANADA.

How did the CIS Soccer Championship in Toronto do for attendance compared to the Vanier Cup in Quebec City or the Final 8 Basketball in Halifax, or the University Cup Hockey in Fredericton?

I'm not trying to diss soccer. I'm trying to point out that GAME of soccer is bigger than MLS and that the GAME of hockey is more than NHL.

Yes I hope that one day we'll have a 60 team Major Jr Soccer League and that 3 or more thousand High School kids show up painted in school colours for soccer games like football or basketball.

Yes soccer is slowly getting there but for soccer to over take anybody it'll take more than 3 MLS teams in 3 cities. When will the CSL have 3,4,5 thousand showing up for games? When will the NATIONAL U-20 soccer Championship have the #'s paying to go to games like the Memorial Cup or the CIS soccer Championship like the University Cup.

MLS is doing wonders yet below that level what are the prospects for the GAME of Soccer to have the level of support that hockey has below the NHL?

Even basketball has a minor pro league the PBL that draws 4,000 and more in Halifax and Saint John where's the soccer equivalent?

I know I'll be written off as one from the Boonies and not a soccer fan. But all I'm trying to say is if you look below the recent success of MLS and USL or NASL in the day of the Blizzard, Whitecaps, Montreal (?) where is the evidence beyond wishfull thinking that the GAME of soccer will dethrone anybody?

If you look at where the GAME of hockey specifically is in CANADA below the NHL.

[Fort York Redcoat1555362293]

The question is in CANADA how does soccer stand up to hockey and can soccer dethrone hockey as CANADA's NATIONAL game.

I thought we were talking about soccer and hockey and you bring up the national game.

I don't want to talk about Lacrosse.

[argh1]

I thought we were talking about soccer and hockey and you bring up the national game.

I don't want to talk about Lacrosse.

Lacrosse is the National official summer game. Hockey the national official winter game.

Shoulda been more clear...........oops

[Macksam]

We know you haven't seen the vitriol Macksam because you are the primary cause. Seeing as you don't read the posts or provide evidence and make things up in your head, about the only useful thing you've provided is a new Vs catchphrase "I wanna see the GTA breakdown"

Where you got I'm from Saskatchewan is a wonder to me, did that come out of your head too? You already know about paid attendance, this past year it was about equal, two years ago the Argos drew 10,000 more per game. You deny or ignore any proven fact that doesn't fit with your zealotry and to deflect from that you've taken to calling me a xenophobe.

Obviously you're trying to deflect the argument because you can't argue it on facts which people other than me have posted. I don't mind you accusing me of stuff and calling me names because it shows you can't argue the debate on it's own merits.

Alright, why is TFC profitable while the Argos aren't? If they are more popular than TFC, why did they struggle so badly to find a suitable owner? Why did a current CFL owner have to purchase the team?

Come out of your little GTA ghetto, and experience the ROC, it's a big country out here. Funny about that Argo/Lions game last year, that of the 800,000 who watched, none of them were from Toronto. Strange.

What ghetto are you referring to? I don't live in any ghetto. Is that your uneducated, back water, hick view of my community? It makes sense considering that your so out of touch with the sports hierarchy here that you would also make an out of touch, offensive statement about where I live.

[Joe MacCarthy]

Alright, why is TFC profitable while the Argos aren't? If they are more popular than TFC, why did they struggle so badly to find a suitable owner? Why did a current CFL owner have to purchase the team?

Here you go again, making blanket statements without proof, that seems to be your specialty.

Just for a change why don't you post some articles or facts?

I ask you, TFC (MLSE) is for sale, where is their new owner?

You're parochial vision of the ROC being like your own little world in your GTA is what's mistaken. Whether you like it or not, the CFL in five years will likely be a national ten team league. How's aboot you name the national nation wide soccer league... hmm... there isn't one and no prospects of ever being one.

[Macksam]

Here you go again, making blanket statements without proof, that seems to be your specialty.

Just for a change why don't you post some articles or facts?

I ask you, TFC (MLSE) is for sale, where is their new owner?

You're parochial vision of the ROC being like your own little world in your GTA is what's mistaken. Whether you like it or not, the CFL in five years will likely be a national ten team league. How's aboot you name the national nation wide soccer league... hmm... there isn't one and no prospects of ever being one.

Alright, let's just start with the basics since you're dense as hell. You do realize TFC is profitable and the Argos are not correct?

As for the bolded, when have I ever implied the ROC being like my own little GTA? I have only spoken about the GTA, and a little bit of the other two MLS markets. Try again.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

... For instance, Labatt Park is (disputably) the longest operating baseball diamond in the world. I would hate to see it converted to a soccer pitch, when it would be so much more of a triumph for the beautiful game to have its own unique stadium built...

I think you are from a Scottish background judging from your friends and foes entries on Bigsoccer. Just so you know London Scottish played at Labatt Park back in the 70s before Scotia Park was built out by Lake Fanshawe as did a now long gone Italian community club called London Roma. Been a while and recollection is getting a bit hazy but I'm almost 100% certain that I've seen old Free Press clippings from the 60s describing a visit by a fully pro Toronto Italia ECPSL team in the 60s to play an exhibition game there. An SSS would be great but given multiple sports have shared Labatt Park in the past (semi-pro Canadian football also used to be played there) I don't think it is in any way unreasonable to see Labatt Park as a possible interim option for soccer in the present day. In much the same way the municipal baseball stadium was used by the Rhinos in Rochester, NY for example.

[Redcoatsforever]

I think you are from a Scottish background judging from your friends and foes entries on Bigsoccer. Just so you know London Scottish played at Labatt Park back in the 70s before Scotia Park was built out by Lake Fanshawe as did a now long gone Italian community club called London Roma. Been a while and recollection is getting a bit hazy but I'm almost 100% certain that I've seen old Free Press clippings from the 60s describing a visit by a fully pro Toronto Italia ECPSL team in the 60s to play an exhibition game there. An SSS would be great but given multiple sports have shared Labatt Park in the past (semi-pro Canadian football also used to be played there) I don't think it is in any way unreasonable to see Labatt Park as a possible interim option for soccer in the present day. In much the same way the municipal baseball stadium was used by the Rhinos in Rochester, NY for example.

On an interim basis is fine. Don't judge my Scottiness...I'm also half-Dutch...that's right, a Scutchie...bet you didn't see that coming.

[Joe MacCarthy]

You do realize TFC is profitable and the Argos are not correct?

Proof? Show me the breakdown. Are you David Braley's accountant now too? Calling me names doesn't make the stuff that you dream up right.

Of course you have no proof, you never do, you just make it up as you go along.

[Macksam]

Proof? Show me the breakdown. Are you David Braley's accountant now too? Calling me names doesn't make the stuff that you dream up right.

Of course you have no proof, you never do, you just make it up as you go along.

Just because I give no proof, doesn't mean it's not true. That seems to be a comman theme in this thread between you and I. I'm confident enough in what I say that I don't need evidence to to validate it, unlike you. I'm surprised you need evidence for something that is fairly common knowledge. However, this should satisfy you:

"It certainly doesn't do Cohon any favours as he tries to legitimize and stabilize the league," said Kent. "It really speaks to the underlying problem in the CFL: That for all of its greatness in some areas, it simply cannot find a way to make the Toronto franchise a profitable proposition, which in the long run may spell its doom as a major nationwide entity."

http://www.thestar.com/sports/football/cfl/argos/article/759621--dual-ownership-thorn-for-cfl-if-braley-takes-argo-reins

[Redcoatsforever]

As an aside, why does everybody assume the CFL would collapse without the Argonauts, anyhow?

[Macksam]

No idea. I personally don't think it would, but it would look awkward.

[Fort York Redcoat1555362293]

I don't. The premise is that the CFL is propped up media-wise by the biggest market but that, if you excuse the raw language, is pure balderdash. The strength in the CFL is in the west and Montreal's return.

Not that I have any interest in the league any more whatsoever.

[Fort York Redcoat1555362293]

Just because I give no proof, doesn't mean it's not true. That seems to be a comman theme in this thread between you and I. I'm confident enough in what I say that I don't need evidence to to validate it, unlike you. I'm surprised you need evidence for something that is fairly common knowledge. However, this should satisfy you:

"It certainly doesn't do Cohon any favours as he tries to legitimize and stabilize the league," said Kent. "It really speaks to the underlying problem in the CFL: That for all of its greatness in some areas, it simply cannot find a way to make the Toronto franchise a profitable proposition, which in the long run may spell its doom as a major nationwide entity."

http://www.thestar.com/sports/football/cfl/argos/article/759621--dual-ownership-thorn-for-cfl-if-braley-takes-argo-reins

The proof is in the pwning.

Joe why so surprised at the defence of the idea that our sport could grow past the CFL on this type of forum? BTW I don't find it funny that you attack another Canadian for where he shows he lives while your own location remains hidden. Poor form.

[paul-collins]

Although a quote from an American university researcher cannot be considered definitive, it certainly would reflect consensus. We will never know for sure as the Argos books are closed, but consider that they spend almost the same on player salaries as TFC (without Mista) and TFC have 16 revenue generating home games to the Argos 9.

A $4.2m salary cap in CFL is pretty hard to recoup on ticket sales alone.