Can Soccer dethrone Hockey as Canada's national game?

[Bertuzzi44]

Keeping to the name of the thread and nobody has responded to the fact the Major Jr Hockey draws 9 million customers a season or Jr A Hockey 5 million.

Yes we all want to concentrate on the NHL but the strength of hockey in Canada is at the community level.

Can soccer replace the Moose Jaw Warriors or the Miramichi Timberwolves as the communities teams?

Yeah there's good turn-outs at MLS games in Canada but when the WHJC in Alberta sells out a year in advance is there an equal event in soccer that would do the same?

Good point. How many for-profit soccer teams are there in Metro Vancouver? I can name 1: the whitecaps.

Hockey teams?

Vancouver Canucks (NHL)

Abbotsford Heat (AHL)

Vancouver Giants (WHL)

Surrey Eagles (BCHL)

Coquitlam Express (BCHL)

Langley Chiefs (BCHL)

...not including the Jr. B teams.

Yea, soccer has a long way to go to "beat" ice hockey in this country!

[Richard]

One might ask how many of those hockey teams in your list are in the highest division in North America.... Just one that I can I see, plus one lower division team and a bunch of juniors. Try comparing apples with apples next time. Tell me again how many registered hockey players there are in BC?

[Joe MacCarthy]

We have already established earlier in the thread that there isn't much difference between Argos ratings in Toronto and past TFC ratings as a whole. When you see that 400,000 ratings for Argos game, it's mostly people from the opposing team watching. As for attendance, that's not paid attendance. Media coverage? Not significant as it's mostly older people that guide that. Considering Argo fans are much older than TFC supporters on average, it fits.

Do you just make this stuff up as you go along? Do you have proof that the Argos paper the house? You don't, because it's not true. David Braley is noted for not doing that.

Where is your proof Argo fans are older? Especially when the CFL is gearing its marketing to attracting younger audiences (which are also skewing younger)

The city turns red when TFC plays? Seriously?

[argh1]

One might ask how many of those hockey teams in your list are in the highest division in North America.... Just one that I can I see, plus one lower division team and a bunch of juniors. Try comparing apples with apples next time. Tell me again how many registered hockey players there are in BC?

But that's the weakness of Canadian soccer.

There's few elite teams/leagues at the U-20 or U-18 level and players drop out.

Where as hockey has well established leagues at these levels are fan supported and the backbone of Canadian hockey.

[Bertuzzi44]

One might ask how many of those hockey teams in your list are in the highest division in North America.... Just one that I can I see, plus one lower division team and a bunch of juniors. Try comparing apples with apples next time. Tell me again how many registered hockey players there are in BC?

Well I guess if you want to compare "apples to apples" then you'd compare the Whitecaps to the Vancouver Canucks, and they get blow out of the water in terms of popularity 10 times of out 10.

But as argh1 mentioned above, my post was more to outline the well-established pro/semi-pro/elite junior pyramid structure hockey has which soccer does not and will take many years to develop.

I don't even know what the next for-profit soccer team below the Whitecaps in Metro Vancouver is, and I'm a soccer fan from Vancouver! Regardless, they are probably waaaaaaaay less popular than every other team on that list. Heck, the PCJHL Grandview Steelers are probably more popular than them...

[paul-collins]

We have already established earlier in the thread that there isn't much difference between Argos ratings in Toronto and past TFC ratings as a whole. When you see that 400,000 ratings for Argos game, it's mostly people from the opposing team watching. As for attendance, that's not paid attendance. Media coverage? Not significant as it's mostly older people that guide that. Considering Argo fans are much older than TFC supporters on average, it fits.

The most important thing you leave out though is just observing the city. I can't even tell when the Argos play. However, when TFC plays, the city turns red. Even in general, you'll see a lot more people wearing TFC merchandise. I actually can't even tell you the last time I saw someone wear an Argos jersey, if ever. You can hide behind your newspapers and tv ratings all you want, it's not going to change how things are in the city.

Oh, I see. Data supporting your position (the supposed "we have already established" quote) is relevant, but other data (media coverage) is irrelevant because, oh, I don't know, the age of the fans skews the coverage but their money and time is worth so much less?

Man, your logic is tough to follow.

[argh1]

I'm gonna take this a step farther...............

I know GTA and Big City folk will hate this.............but hey, I'm from the boonies and I know it's easy to marginalize or minimize us but there's a whole lota Canada outside the GTA.

When I see High School soccer drawing the 3 to 5,000 that High School football does. When I see Senior soccer drawing what Senior baseball does.

http://monctonmetsbaseball.com/monctonmets/index.php?option=com_atomicongallery&view=atomicongallery&Itemid=109

Yeah, yeah this is hickville.

I'm a soccer fan but outside of a few pockets in Canada I don't see the soccer revolution.

[paul-collins]

One might ask how many of those hockey teams in your list are in the highest division in North America.... Just one that I can I see, plus one lower division team and a bunch of juniors. Try comparing apples with apples next time. Tell me again how many registered hockey players there are in BC?

http://www.hockeycanada.ca/index.php/ci_id/23952/la_id/1.htm

46,297 BC players.

I'll try to find the breakdown by age and will add to this post.

[paul-collins]

I'm gonna take this a step farther...............

I know GTA and Big City folk will hate this.............but hey, I'm from the boonies and I know it's easy to marginalize or minimize us but there's a whole lota Canada outside the GTA.

When I see High School soccer drawing the 3 to 5,000 that High School football does. When I see Senior soccer drawing what Senior baseball does.

http://monctonmetsbaseball.com/monctonmets/index.php?option=com_atomicongallery&view=atomicongallery&Itemid=109

Yeah, yeah this is hickville.

I'm a soccer fan but outside of a few pockets in Canada I don't see the soccer revolution.

This is my point as well. I was raised in a seriously hockey-oriented city (Peterborough) and although it has good soccer participation, it is in no way threatening hockey for attention.

Soccer participation is high so long as it is the summer vacation activity. When the parental commitment/player commitment has to work with school schedules and multiple nights a week, I feel we will see a better reflection of how it competes for attention with hockey (where just house league requires 2 sessions a week, and rep requires 2 more to start).

Richard, how does BC participation fare - they're mostly using a winter schedule for soccer, yes? Is that true for HL?

[argh1]

http://www.hockeycanada.ca/index.php/ci_id/23952/la_id/1.htm

46,297 BC players.

I'll try to find the breakdown by age and will add to this post.

That's cool

Even in Hickville NB soccer has more registered players than hockey.

But they are at the U-6-8-12 level. Where are the elite U-16-18-20 teams/leagues?

Softball and Slo-Pitch has good registrations too but that is purely rec league. Is soccer falling into the rec league level?

[RamR]

First point... I am a soccer fan and would like it to become as popular as possible in Canada, but I am also admittedly a hockey fan (and many other sports for that matter).

Second point... looking at registration numbers is misleading as mentioned by others. If you compare the hockey and soccer registration numbers over age groups it will probably be more indicative. I don't have any data to back this up so I may be wrong but I have several anecdotal cases where when the time comes to choose one sport to concentrate on hockey is often the winner.

Third point... another way to look at this issue is to compare support of Canadians with a strong soccer background (which includes a large part of immigrant communities) to the support of Canadians without a strong soccer background (which is still the majority especially outside of large urban centers) and I suspect you will find vastly different results.

[Joe MacCarthy]

I know GTA and Big City folk will hate this.............but hey, I'm from the boonies and I know it's easy to marginalize or minimize us but there's a whole lotta Canada outside the GTA.

When I see High School soccer drawing the 3 to 5,000 that High School football does. When I see Senior soccer drawing what Senior baseball does. I'm a soccer fan but outside of a few pockets in Canada I don't see the soccer revolution.

You speak the truth!

[Joe MacCarthy]

Oh, I see. Data supporting your position (the supposed "we have already established" quote) is relevant, but other data (media coverage) is irrelevant because, oh, I don't know, the age of the fans skews the coverage but their money and time is worth so much less?

Man, your logic is tough to follow.

It sure is. Especially when you do all the research that he demands for him and then he just posts whatever comes into his head.

We're all soccer fans here (or we wouldn't be here) but some of us non zealots like to maintain a modicum of reality.

[Joe MacCarthy]

I know GTA and Big City folk will hate this.............but hey, I'm from the boonies and I know it's easy to marginalize or minimize us but there's a whole lota Canada outside the GTA. I'm a soccer fan but outside of a few pockets in Canada I don't see the soccer revolution.

I have a question for you. I've lived in four Eastern Canadian provinces in my many years and Northern Ontario for several years and I have never (not once) seen a pickup game of soccer that wasn't organized. I'm talking about some kids just running around kicking a soccer ball in the street (field) that wasn't an organized school or league activity.

I know this isn't the reality in the big multicultural cities but I think it is the reality in a lot of places in Canada.

Argh1, I am interested in your experiences in regard to this.

[argh1]

I have a question for you. I've lived in four Eastern Canadian provinces in my many years and Northern Ontario for several years and I have never (not once) seen a pickup game of soccer that wasn't organized. I'm talking about some kids just running around kicking a soccer ball in the street (field) that wasn't an organized school or league activity.

I know this isn't the reality in the big multicultural cities but I think it is the reality in a lot of places in Canada.

Argh1, I am interested in your experiences in regard to this.

No every thing is organized these days no matter the sport.

We've come along way since the early 80's when a soccer enthusiast got volunteer help to build the 1st soccer field in Riverview on bog/wasteland to the soccer fields at the Dobson Complex in Riverview to the 10 soccer Blue Grass fields at the CN Sportsplex in Moncton.

In 20 or 30 years soccer has come a long way.

But no you don't see the the pick-up games like you see at the outdoor rinks for hockey.

No we don't have the large immigration like Big Cities but there is a burgeoning immigrant population from French speaking Africa and Asia also one of our universities Crandall U has free English language training for Korean and South Asian newbies.

Moncton is the 6th fastest growing Metro area in Canada.

So maybe with the increased immigration soccer will grow faster.

Interestingly the North End Boys and Girls Club had free learn to skate sessions and the Riverview Boys and Girls Club had free cross country ski lessons and both had over 100 participants from people who'd never seen snow or ice before

[paul-collins]

Hockey breakdown by age for 2009-2010 can be seen in their AGM document, page 9

http://hockeycanada.ca/index.php/ci_id/74906/la_id/1.htm

I said I was going to post in the previous thread but it's a page back and would get lost. It shows the age groups for all provincial associations for that year. It's a big document (14 megs for only 38 pages)...

[Redcoatsforever]

I don't see the point of this perpetual pissing contest between soccer and the established popular sports in Canada. I understand that it may not constitute the majority of fans, but certainly some of the most vocal people I've met have been primarily concerned with outdoing or overtaking other sports for youth enrollment, popularity, and coverage.

I understand wanting soccer to receive more coverage, more popularity, and the desire for strong youth programs, but why the hell do people feel the need to attack other sports?

I'm just continually confused by the people I see rubbing their hands with glee, snickering about the CFL going under, as though that would put soccer on some sort of summer sports pedistal. The CFL is not going out of business, it's not losing popularity. If anything, with the looming NFL lockout it's about to be even more resurgent than it was the past few years. How is that a hindrance to soccer in Canada?

Were those CFL fans who didn't want to watch soccer before because they didn't like it somehow going to jump ship without Canadian football?

What exactly is the idea behind wanting other sports to fall by the wayside here?

[Joe MacCarthy]

What exactly is the idea behind wanting other sports to fall by the wayside here?

I've been wondering that since these boards started. It's some strange jealousy that some zealots have and they can't fathom that there are a lot of people who just don't like soccer. And these same people seem to have an irrational hatred of baseball, especially. They claim ball players aren't athletes and are out of shape etc. I'm surprised about the anti-CFL feeling a select few here have shown as I know there are many people here who like both.

They conjure up paranoid ideas of media conspiracies and unfriendly journalists. Trust me, as a long time player in the TV business, if soccer was popular, people would be trying to make a buck off of it.

[Joe MacCarthy]

Americans may turn to CFL

STEVE KEATING, Reuters

TORONTO -- With an NFL labour dispute threatening to wipe out next season American gridiron fans may look for different ways to get their football fix and their northern neighbours may have the answer.

The Canadian Football League could prove an exotic alternative with its three downs, 12 players, bigger field and more backfield motion than a conga line, but it delivers the same bone-jarring action that has made the NFL America's most popular game.

The eight-team league has been around since 1958 and the Grey Cup -- Canada's equivalent to the Super Bowl -- will be contested for the 99th time this season.

Despite a rich past, the CFL has had limited exposure in the United States and, for the most part, remains a mystery to many Americans who are dedicated NFL followers.

But last year the CFL entered into a deal with the NFL Network to broadcast games in the United States and with the labour dispute dragging on the network is looking to add more to fill a possible programming void.

"As far as the CFL getting more exposure it (the labour dispute) could have some benefit," Michael Copeland, the CFL's Chief Operating Officer told Reuters.

"It may bring our game to more people south of the border that are craving football should the NFL not be playing and there are a bunch of NFL fans up here that just might pay more attention to the CFL."

The NFL Network carried 14 CFL games last season, mostly on Friday nights, and could see that number grow to 18 or more this year if the NFL season fails to start on time.

Viewership numbers were described as modest but the real benefit for the CFL was the exposure it received in a market that still produces the majority of the league's players.

"I don't think our expectations were that great but they were reasonable considering it was a new property," said Copeland. "I think they were thrilled at the quality of product and I think we're both looking to see where this could go.

"One of the nice benefits of showing the games is that it was great recruiting tool for us.

"It exposed the game to a lot more players who may now see the CFL as an alternative."

Over the decades, thousands of American players have found their way north of the border where they laid the foundation for brilliant NFL careers.

Quarterbacks Warren Moon, Doug Flutie, Joe Theismann and Jeff Garcia all starred in the CFL before returning to home to more lucrative contracts.

But there will be no flood of top caliber NFL talent pouring over the border looking for work this season.

With CFL teams held to a $4.2 million salary cap and the average player salary well below $100,000 a season few established NFL free agents will view the northern league as a viable option.

Also, any player signing with a CFL team would have to agree to a minimum one-year deal plus a club option, which could tie them to the franchise for two seasons.

While the CFL is one option, American sports fans have plenty of alternatives from which to choose.

College football could see a spike in interest if the NFL players and owners are still haggling when the season is scheduled to start in September, while the upstart United Football League could fill a void between August and October.

Some will simply migrate to other sports, with NHL, NBA, Major League Baseball and even Major League Soccer picking up drifters and channel surfers.

Certainly the UFL, a five-team league playing eight game schedules, will provide Americans with a few more familiar names and rules than the CFL.

Marty Schottenheimer, sixth on the NFL's all-time coaching win list was named coach and general manager of the Virginia Destroyers on Wednesday just days after former NFL coach Jerry Glanville accepted a coaching job with the Hartford Colonials.

Schottenheimer and Glanville join former NFL coaching alumni Jim Fassel, now with Las Vegas and Dennis Green in Sacramento.

The UFL claims to have supplied 100 players for the NFL but according to media reports the league has posted losses of over $80 million during its first two seasons leaving many questions about its future.

[Macksam]

It sure is. Especially when you do all the research that he demands for him and then he just posts whatever comes into his head.

We're all soccer fans here (or we wouldn't be here) but some of us non zealots like to maintain a modicum of reality.

What reality? You clinging to this false notion that the Argos are more popular than TFC in Toronto is not reality, it's being in denial.

[Joe MacCarthy]

Attendances are about even (even though the Argos had a bad two years where attendance dropped from 30,000) and ratings are at least 4 times higher for the Argos. Those ratings include the ROC as do the TFC ratings. Apples to apples. If you want the GTA breakdown it's posted in one of the articles.

Every time you drag one of those ideas out of your head and try and be specific you are proved wrong. You didn't know about any Canadians who went to play in the NFL from the CFL. Hell, I'll go one better and give you, off the top of my head, names of players who went directly from the CIS to the NFL (Cory Greenwood, Vaughn Martin, Israel Idonije).

[rdroze]

Just throwing this out there as a single point of comparison for the Toronto-Vancouver TV ratings: (couldn't find the ratings for the TOR@BC game on September 11, 2010)

2010-07-23: CFL, Lions at Argonauts, Friday, TSN: 858,000

Let the spinning begin.

[Joe MacCarthy]

Yeah, but that wasn't people in Toronto and Vancouver watching I wanna see the GTA breakdown, I wanna see the GTA breakdown!

[Richard]

But that's the weakness of Canadian soccer.

There's few elite teams/leagues at the U-20 or U-18 level and players drop out.

Where as hockey has well established leagues at these levels are fan supported and the backbone of Canadian hockey.

When was the last time you watched any soccer in BC besides the Whitecaps on TV? This post of yours blows your credibility right out of the water.

[Bertuzzi44]

When was the last time you watched any soccer in BC besides the Whitecaps on TV? This post of yours blows your credibility right out of the water.

But that is the point Richard, one I also made earlier and you never responded to. No one really watches local soccer in BC besides the Whitecaps.

In my response to your "compare apples to apples" comment I noted that the Whitecaps would be comparable to the Vancouver Canucks, with the Canucks being about a thousand times more popular.

So what are the soccer comparables to the WHL Giants or the AHL Heat, or even the BCHL teams? In terms of attendance and exposure, basically nothing.

Now, if the question is do kids play soccer in BC the answer is ABSOLUTELY yes. Tonnes of them. More than hockey. So does that mean it has "dethroned hockey as Canada's national game" as the thread topic asks? I don't think so, but if you think participation numbers are the end all be all then I guess for you there is no debate and soccer is Canada's national game.

But in terms of viewership and popularity, not even close.