Can Soccer dethrone Hockey as Canada's national game?

[neil_z_]

Lower ticket prices would probably provide a quick fix. Its not likely to happen though.

[Keegan]

Lower ticket prices would probably provide a quick fix. Its not likely to happen though.

Why not though? MLSE isn't stupid this is a supply and demand world and its not like they are the Leafs or Raptors for that matter salary wise where you need to charge high tickets to break even. We are talking a league where TFC's complete salary for the year including JDG is less than some players on the Leafs.

[Bertuzzi44]

I don’t believe there are more concussions in hockey; more research of concussions in the last 5-10 years led to more people being diagnosed. David Krejci of the Boston Bruins missed 2 weeks with a mild concussion (6 games), chances are 10 years ago he would have played in those two weeks and missed one or two games with ‘the flu’. Players are being diagnosed with concussions and kept out of the lineup for one week or two weeks, this did not happen even 5 years ago. In the 1990’s you had to be F’ed up to miss games with a concussion, now you have a mild one and you are out for a few days.

One thing that always strikes me is when someone states, “It is only a matter of time before someone dies on the ice.” Truth is players have already died on the ice playing hockey, at the NHL level and various lower levels not to mention all the near misses throughout history. Someone who states that obviously lacks any historical knowledge of hockey.

I don’t buy the argument hockey is more violent now than in the past, this youtube generation insures every act no matter how insignificant will never be forgotten and watched at will. 50 years ago when Gordie Howe slashed someone, that event was forgotten as soon as the news paper was thrown away, if the reporter choose to report it. That doesn't mean steps shouldn't be taken for player safety, but in sports there is always a risk you can get hurt or worse.

I agree completely.

If anything, hockey players at all levels are more protected now (both protective gear and through rules) than ever before.

[Macksam]

Put-up or shut-up time for soccer in Canada

BRUCE DOWBIGGIN Globe and Mail Mar 20, 2011

Even to the jaundiced eye, the Major League Soccer debut of the Vancouver Whitecaps on Saturday was a joyous thing. With a sold-out, chanting crowd in the jewel box of Empire Field and captured by TSN on a sunny spring afternoon (hey, it’s Vancouver), the newly minted heroes thrashed Toronto FC 4-2. If this is the future of soccer in Canada, bring it on.

The problem is we’ve been here before – in Vancouver, especially. The Whitecaps have won championships, then had their horse shot out from under them when leagues folded. The history of soccer in Canada is a smoking battlefield littered with the corpses of people who thought, “Here, now... Soccer!”

Why should we think this time will be different? Well, soccer is not balkanized to the far end of the TV dial, seen by zealots alone. The sparring partners of Canadian sports TV – TSN and Rogers Sportsnet – have gone all-in on the MLS relaunch, grabbing national MLS rights (TSN) and individual team rights (TSN, Sportsnet). They’re also going to rumble over rights to Montreal’s club, which graduates to MLS next season.

Last summer, CBC cast its lot with soccer by devoting acres of time to the World Cup in South Africa. While rights payments range anywhere from significant to puny, it gives evidence of some growth. MLS is also weaning itself off the David Beckham quick-fix formula, producing homegrown stars to market.

Toronto FC has worked a formula of bandbox stadium and slick marketing to gain a foothold in Toronto’s competitive sports market. Meanwhile, corporations, governments and sponsors have jumped on soccer hoping to benefit from the assumed multicultural buzz. The prospectus is promising.

Except … despite the TV ratings success of the World Cup there was no concurrent bump for MLS ratings. Toronto FC hovered in mediocre levels for national programming. There are signs that the novelty of an underachieving team at BMO Field in downtown Toronto has peaked (Vancouver’s thrashing of them Saturday is ominous). Vancouver and Montreal promise to have devoted followings in the stands their first few years, but will it translate into a larger population or TV audience?

For its huge participant base and the alleged grooviness of soccer in a country that fetishizes multiculturalism, we’ve had 40 years for the sport to move into mainstream and it hasn’t happened. As one simple example, TSN chose British play-by-play announcer Luke Wileman. Why, in all the years of Canadian soccer, has no young person emerged as the definitive TSN voice of the game in Canada?

It’s a small thing, but then Canadian soccer needs all the small things to go right. One thing is certain, it’s soccer’s put-up-or-shut-up moment in this country.

I assume you posted this so we could all point and laugh like the numerous people who left comments for this joke of a writer.

[Joe MacCarthy]

Except the people who laughed and pointed never tried to repudiate anything in the article. I'm no fan of Bruce Dowbiggen but what in the article wasn't true. The only joke was the Wheeler article that mentioned the TV rating. For those two markets and the first ever televised MLS Canadian derby and Whitecaps first MLS/TSN game, I was expecting two/three times that number.

I hope TSN picked up those rights for a song and hope to make gold because those numbers were truly not encouraging for something that should have been event television.

[Macksam]

Except the people who laughed and pointed never tried to repudiate anything in the article. I'm no fan of Bruce Dowbiggen but what in the article wasn't true. The only joke was the Wheeler article that mentioned the TV rating. For those two markets and the first ever televised MLS Canadian derby and Whitecaps first MLS/TSN game, I was expecting two/three times that number.

I hope TSN picked up those rights for a song and hope to make gold because those numbers were truly not encouraging for something that should have been event television.

Considering it was up against HNIC, I think the number was pretty much what everyone expected. It's a significant improvement and it will only continue to grow.

Do you have numbers for an Argos/Lions game when it goes against HNIC?

http://www.tsn.ca/soccer/story/?id=359030

Also, joke? The most watched MLS match in Canada is a joke? It's funny how you like to spin things.

You should also watch what the TSN Reporters have to say about the game. Even those socer haters are admitting how the times are changing, with one guy saying how jealous he is that the CFL doesn't have the same atmosphere.

[Joe MacCarthy]

I like how you try to polarize everything without any evidence. Anyone who questions your zealotry is a "hater". How do you know anybody on that panel is a "soccer hater"?

You try to qualify those ratings by saying it was up against HNIC, now that's spinning. The first half hour of the game was up against the HNIC pre game show.

MLS in Canada may have a great atmosphere but it's a niche market. This was the inaugural game of a new league franchise and a season opener. More people should have been watching, they weren't, the lowest rated CFL game would get twice that much. What evidence do you have that MLS ratings will grow? No name calling, "hater" jazz, just tell me what will compel people to start watching?

[Fort York Redcoat1555362293]

^What evidence do you have that MLS popularity won't grow?

[Joe MacCarthy]

I'm not saying it won't but the first five years of TFC are indicative. I'm contesting the title of this thread and trying to do it logically with some evidence. I don't believe being considered a hater is much of a good debating point.

[Macksam]

I'm not saying it won't but the first five years of TFC are indicative. I'm contesting the title of this thread and trying to do it logically with some evidence. I don't believe being considered a hater is much of a good debating point.

Yes, but when we ask for some relevant evidence, you run and hide.

Your not a hater, but there is a sense of fear in your posts...fear of what lies a head.

What city do you live in btw?

[Joe MacCarthy]

Ask for evidence? Are you serious? I've done nothing but provide articles and numbers (from sources, not just my opinion) that you refuse to acknowledge. You have provided nothing but your own opinion and want me to gather evidence and make your points for you. You have been shot down (by other posters) for making blanket statements proven wrong and question my motives instead of the facts provided.

Fear, what fear. Why do you think none of the old timers come here and help you defend your opinion. It's because they know this same argument's been going on 40 years. They know better and have a sense of reality.

It's like the hockey will become big in the US argument. Hockey has been on US television for 50 years, it hasn't become mainstream but has carved itself a niche market just like soccer has in Canada.

I honestly don't know why you soccer zealots want to belittle other sports to raise the profile of soccer. Most Canadians don't want to watch soccer the same as most Americans don't want to watch hockey. It's that simple and has been for a very long time. What will suddenly happen to change that. You still didn't at least give me your opinion on what you think will happen.

Don't bother responding if the only thing you can bring to the debate is my motivations. Try coming up with some facts or at least tell me why you think soccer will ascend. I'd like to know and will have no problem agreeing with you if you can provide some relevant evidence or material.

And for the record I don't consider the TSN "highest" MLS rating as a relevant debating point. To go from abysmal to mediocre isn't much of an accomplishment for a game that had historical significance. Will a regular season game between the two teams get a higher rating? I doubt it but am willing to stand corrected.

[Macksam]

Ask for evidence? Are you serious? I've done nothing but provide articles and numbers (from sources, not just my opinion) that you refuse to acknowledge. You have provided nothing but your own opinion and want me to gather evidence and make your points for you. You have been shot down (by other posters) for making blanket statements proven wrong and question my motives instead of the facts provided.

No.

Whenever I ask you for some relevent breakdowns, you start using this argument of having shown "evidence". You seem content with the fact you have shown "evidence", even though said "evidence" is constantly labeled as irrelevent by some of the other posters and I. When that happens, the onus is on you to clean up your argument and provide better "evidence".

Fear, what fear. Why do you think none of the old timers come here and help you defend your opinion. It's because they know this same argument's been going on 40 years. They know better and have a sense of reality.

What? BBTB questioned your evidence as well and asked for a more specific breakdown of Argos ratings like I did, and I'm pretty sure he's an "oldtimer". Also, JPG said my opinion "was less wrong" than yours. I think he's an "oldtimer" to.

It's like the hockey will become big in the US argument. Hockey has been on US television for 50 years, it hasn't become mainstream but has carved itself a niche market just like soccer has in Canada.

The NHL has been on US television consistently for 50 years. For soccer, a domestic league hasn't consistently been on TV in Canada for the same amount of time. We started all over again from scratch in 2007. If by 2057, the MLS is still a niche market in Canada, you will be correct.

I honestly don't know why you soccer zealots want to belittle other sports to raise the profile of soccer. Most Canadians don't want to watch soccer the same as most Americans don't want to watch hockey. It's that simple and has been for a very long time. What will suddenly happen to change that. You still didn't at least give me your opinion on what you think will happen.

Considering the statement "Most Canadians don't want to watch soccer," isn't true, why would I have to give an opinion on why that's going to change? Also, I never belittled anything, especially hockey. If you're talking about what I say on the CFL and the GTA, I'm sorry my man but it's just the way things are.

Don't bother responding if the only thing you can bring to the debate is my motivations. Try coming up with some facts or at least tell me why you think soccer will ascend. I'd like to know and will have no problem agreeing with you if you can provide some relevant evidence or material.

Soccer will ascend in the future because the sport will be played at the highest level (MLS) in North America across our three biggest media markets. Considering a good third of Canada's population resides in and around these three markets, a significant portion of the populace will gravitate towards the sport. As the quality of the MLS grows, the popularity of the league will grow within the three media markets and throughout Canada. In Toronto, the Argos don't have much of a following anymore with the young people and there is no evidence showing signs that's likely to change. TFC are already more popular than the Argos and the club is only four years old. Imagine how drastic the difference will be in 10 years time, 20 years time. The same holds true in Vancouver. The Lions are not popular. They're doing better than the Argos no doubt, but it's nothing to brag home about and the Caps will overtake them soon. Montreal will follow suit as well and overtake the Alouettes in popularity.

Another aspect of popularity will be domestic players. While the CFL has a plethora of domestic talent, they're practically all faceless journeymen. I don't know any kid who wants to aspire to be Bryan Crawford or who ever else on the Argos. With soccer, kids aspire to be great players all the time. While the MLS may not retain their best young talent, they often go abroad to the best leagues in the world. Kids who want to do that will see MLS as a spring form for such aspirations. Have any Canadians ever made the jump from CFL to NFL directly?

And for the record I don't consider the TSN "highest" MLS rating as a relevant debating point. To go from abysmal to mediocre isn't much of an accomplishment for a game that had historical significance. Will a regular season game between the two teams get a higher rating? I doubt it but am willing to stand corrected.

It was still an improvement. Whether it had historical significance or not, and if that historical significance was suppose to carry this monumental weight like you're insinuating, is subjective and doesn't mean much. I mean, HNIC was on as well. I can counter your historical significance with the fact HNIC was on.

[Joe MacCarthy]

I'm not going to say much because at least this time you actually came out and said something. I don't agree with much of it but at least it was an explanation of your opinion.

Two things, Canadians from the CIS are actually going directly to NFL camps (7 this year including Chiefs stud Cory Greenwood) and if you were a Roughrider fan you'd be bemoaning the recent loss of Andy Fantuz to the Chicago Bears. But that's neither here nor there concerning our debate.

The ironic thing is the title of this thread is Can Soccer dethrone Hockey as Canada's national game? and with you bringing up the point of the MLS game up against HNIC the obvious answer to the question is NO

[paul-collins]

TFC are already more popular than the Argos and the club is only four years old. Imagine how drastic the difference will be in 10 years time, 20 years time. The same holds true in Vancouver. The Lions are not popular. They're doing better than the Argos no doubt, but it's nothing to brag home about and the Caps will overtake them soon. Montreal will follow suit as well and overtake the Alouettes in popularity.

Based on... ?

Average attendance? nope.

TV ratings? nope.

Unscientific poll of those in your living room? maybe.

I suspect MLS may eventually overtake CFL in popularity, certainly in the MLS markets - but making statements like the bolded one above weakens your argument.

[argh1]

Keeping to the name of the thread and nobody has responded to the fact the Major Jr Hockey draws 9 million customers a season or Jr A Hockey 5 million.

Yes we all want to concentrate on the NHL but the strength of hockey in Canada is at the community level.

Can soccer replace the Moose Jaw Warriors or the Miramichi Timberwolves as the communities teams?

Yeah there's good turn-outs at MLS games in Canada but when the WHJC in Alberta sells out a year in advance is there an equal event in soccer that would do the same?

[Macksam]

The ironic thing is the title of this thread is Can Soccer dethrone Hockey as Canada's national game? and with you bringing up the point of the MLS game up against HNIC the obvious answer to the question is NO

Come on now, don't do that. The whole idea of this being soccer versus hockey was abandoned near the beginning of the thread. The debate turned into a soccer versus CFL thing very early on. Let's not play that angle.

You might not agree with much of it, but you must agree with why I shut down your hockey being popular in the United States paralell.

Based on... ?

Average attendance? nope.

TV ratings? nope.

Living in the real world?

[paul-collins]

Google is your friend. Data easily found to support my post. Google reflects the real world. Not sure what your point is.

[Joe MacCarthy]

Macksam don't do the research thang, you have to do it for him.

[Macksam]

Do either of you even live in Toronto or the GTA?

[tarnado1555362291]

To anyone in the GTA it is obvious that the Argos are the least popular professional sports team in Toronto. An argument could be made about the Blue Jays as they draw even less at the Rogers Centre. But in terms of the overall sports media narrative and consciousness of Toronto sports fans, the Argos rank below the Raptors and Blue Jays. As far as average attendance for the Argos it was in the 25 000 range last year which is not bad but not significantly better than TFC which can't fit more than 22 500 in anyway. When I look at those attendance figures (for Argos) I'm left wondering where these people are coming from, perhaps many from outside the GTA, I don't know. Ask anyone on the street to name one player on the Argos and do the same for TFC and you would soon realize their relative popularity.

[kj52]

At least we've finally got it straight what this thread is about - Argos vs. TFC in southern Ontario and the rest of us can now ignore it.

[tarnado1555362291]

To the point above, I don't think the popularity of soccer vs. Canadian football in Toronto has much bearing on the overall topic of.... can soccer be the number one sport in CANADA as a whole. It is yet to be seen whether soccer will gain ground in other markets to that extent.

[paul-collins]

Do either of you even live in Toronto or the GTA?

Why, does google not work in Brampton? It works fine for me wherever I happen to be. Which is often Toronto, more often in the 905.

I certainly agree with tarnado that the Argos are less popular than the Jays, Raptors and (duh) Leafs. I think the point you were trying to make is that TFC is more popular than the Argos, but I've not seen evidence of that either in coverage (occasional Sun and Star, regular Globe reader), TV numbers or attendance. (2010 was a down year for the Argos which is possibly an anomoly as they've been doing reasonably well since 2004).

I am not one of those attendees, for what it's worth.

@kj52 LOL!

[BuzzAndSting]

Back to the thread topic as a whole - the problem with soccer in this country, and more precisely MLS, it is considered a joke amongst many soccer fans. I'm a TFC fan living in Ottawa and I can't tell you how many times I've met soccer fans who could care less about MLS because it's percieved as lower quality soccer. Until that stigma is gone I don't think soccer can ever pass hockey in popularity.

[Macksam]

Why, does google not work in Brampton? It works fine for me wherever I happen to be. Which is often Toronto, more often in the 905.

I have no idea what your talking about it now.

I certainly agree with tarnado that the Argos are less popular than the Jays, Raptors and (duh) Leafs. I think the point you were trying to make is that TFC is more popular than the Argos, but I've not seen evidence of that either in coverage (occasional Sun and Star, regular Globe reader), TV numbers or attendance. (2010 was a down year for the Argos which is possibly an anomoly as they've been doing reasonably well since 2004).

I am not one of those attendees, for what it's worth.

@kj52 LOL!

We have already established earlier in the thread that there isn't much difference between Argos ratings in Toronto and past TFC ratings as a whole. When you see that 400,000 ratings for Argos game, it's mostly people from the opposing team watching. As for attendance, that's not paid attendance. Media coverage? Not significant as it's mostly older people that guide that. Considering Argo fans are much older than TFC supporters on average, it fits.

The most important thing you leave out though is just observing the city. I can't even tell when the Argos play. However, when TFC plays, the city turns red. Even in general, you'll see a lot more people wearing TFC merchandise. I actually can't even tell you the last time I saw someone wear an Argos jersey, if ever. You can hide behind your newspapers and tv ratings all you want, it's not going to change how things are in the city.