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Can Soccer dethrone Hockey as Canada's national game?


An Observer

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Attendances are about even (even though the Argos had a bad two years where attendance dropped from 30,000) and ratings are at least 4 times higher for the Argos. Those ratings include the ROC as do the TFC ratings. Apples to apples. If you want the GTA breakdown it's posted in one of the articles.

Every time you drag one of those ideas out of your head and try and be specific you are proved wrong. You didn't know about any Canadians who went to play in the NFL from the CFL. Hell, I'll go one better and give you, off the top of my head, names of players who went directly from the CIS to the NFL (Cory Greenwood, Vaughn Martin, Israel Idonije).

What? Paul Collins and you both seem to think the Raptors are more popular than the Argos and they have better ratings and average "attendance" compared to them. Do these factors you put so much weight on not apply in that situation or should I say checkmate?

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^ Exactly, and if you look at the trends the answer is obvious, declining hockey registrations and booming soccer registrations. The outcome is almost inevitable.

*sigh*

Do you even read the posts of other people? Post #208 I provided a link that showed the last ten years of hockey registrations, with an increase from 500k to almost 580k registration over that period. Declining? I think not.

And maksam, I never really addressed the Raptors, in fact I could care less about them. I've not looked at any data for them ratings or attendancewise, but I could certainly do some research if I cared to and it was worth it. You can stop talking out of your ass any time now. Checkmate? Whatever.

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And maksam, I never really addressed the Raptors, in fact I could care less about them. I've not looked at any data for them ratings or attendancewise, but I could certainly do some research if I cared to and it was worth it. You can stop talking out of your ass any time now. Checkmate? Whatever.

I'll spare you the research, the Argos have better average ratings and average attendance than them. Why would I lie about that?

As for talking out of my ass? hmmmm....

I certainly agree with tarnado that the Argos are less popular than the Jays, Raptors and (duh) Leafs. I think the point you were trying to make is that TFC is more popular than the Argos, but I've not seen evidence of that either in coverage (occasional Sun and Star, regular Globe reader), TV numbers or attendance.

What's this in the bold? Argos are less popular than the Raptors? Am I imagining this? Is my monitor playing some sort of opitcal illusion with my eyes?

In essence, your argument along with JM's goes completely out the window I'm afraid.

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I have to agree with paul-collins, do you even read the posts? Where have I ever mentioned the Raptors? I could care less about them. When you and Richard step out of your reverie and actually acknowledge that registration numbers mean nothing more than a babysitting service and that nobody is watching on television (as compared to other popular sports) you can reenter the debate.

I go back to the 70s, you guys act as if playing soccer is a new thing of the last ten years or so. People played soccer in the 70s, if it wasn't in an organized city structure then it was in the schools (which is where I played) Lots of people played then. lots of people play now and lots of people still don't want to watch on TV. Check and mate. Whatever.

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^ Exactly, and if you look at the trends the answer is obvious, declining hockey registrations and booming soccer registrations. The outcome is almost inevitable.

I like you said almost because it leaves some room for some doubt ;).This is simply a flawed argument because it makes the false assumption that participation in an activity directly leads to higher television viewership.

In 2005 according to statscan, golf had the highest adult participation rates out of all Canadians with 1.5 million people (People aged 15 or more)*. This line of thinking, participation = popularity, would mean golf should expect huge TV ratings in Canada. The big tournaments in golf (final rounds of Masters, British Open, PGA championship, US open) usually receive around 500,000 viewers. I play golf and I have NEVER watched golf on TV, unless Happy Gilmore counts, because I don’t find any entertainment value watching someone else play golf. I know countless people who like soccer, like to play, but have no interest in watching it outside of the world cup.

Again, sports are like any other entertainment product, the big difference is the emotional attachment to teams and players. The average Canadian doesn’t have any attachment to clubs or specific players, especially Canadian clubs and players. Casual sports fans are glory hunters by nature, so can you explain why glory hunters would stop watching hockey, for a sport Canadians are not particularly good at?

Until Canada has a face of soccer in a top league scoring goals for a good team, or the men’s national team makes some noise on the World Cup, participation is irrelevant because the casual Canadian sports fan won’t take interest. I support soccer in this country and our national team and I hope it becomes more popular, but to state soccer will because of registration numbers is naïve at best.

*source: http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/81-595-m/81-595-m2008060-eng.pdf pp29

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I have to agree with paul-collins, do you even read the posts? Where have I ever mentioned the Raptors? I could care less about them. When you and Richard step out of your reverie and actually acknowledge that registration numbers mean nothing more than a babysitting service and that nobody is watching on television (as compared to other popular sports) you can reenter the debate.

I go back to the 70s, you guys act as if playing soccer is a new thing of the last ten years or so. People played soccer in the 70s, if it wasn't in an organized city structure then it was in the schools (which is where I played) Lots of people played then. lots of people play now and lots of people still don't want to watch on TV. Check and mate. Whatever.

Do you read the posts? When have I ever mentioned registration numbers?

As for re entering the debate, I'm sorry but I completely twisted Paul Collins' arm when I mentioned him and his stance on the Raps. He stated the Raps are more popular than the Argos. However, he suggested that the Argos are more popular than TFC due to a higher average attendance and TV ratings. If the Argos are more popular than TFC because of a higher average attendance and average TV ratings, why wouldn't he say the Argos are more popular than the Raptors considering the Argos have a higher average attendance and higher tv ratings compared to them as well?

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Do you read the posts? When have I ever mentioned registration numbers?

As for re entering the debate, I'm sorry but I completely twisted Paul Collins' arm when I mentioned him and his stance on the Raps. He stated the Raps are more popular than the Argos. However, he suggested that the Argos are more popular than TFC due to a higher average attendance and TV ratings. If the Argos are more popular than TFC because of a higher average attendance and average TV ratings, why would he say the Argos are more popular than the Raptors considering the Argos have a higher average attendance and higher tv ratings compared to them as well?

Football is more popular than soccer as a spectator sport in Canada. The TV ratings and attendance numbers are proof enough.

This does not make soccer any less of a sport, nor does it make anyone any less important as a sports fan. Your love of soccer is still legitimate, even if it doesn't make soccer the most popular game in the country. I hope that this pointless argument can now end, as the Napolean complex has been defused.

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Football is more popular than soccer as a spectator sport in Canada. The TV ratings and attendance numbers are proof enough.

This does not make soccer any less of a sport, nor does it make anyone any less important as a sports fan. Your love of soccer is still legitimate, even if it doesn't make soccer the most popular game in the country. I hope that this pointless argument can now end, as the Napolean complex has been defused.

That's fine and all Brett but, and I agree with that sentiment, but that quote was discussing the GTA specifically.

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I made a mistake on the raptors, plain and simple. I ascribed popularity to them based on the density of media coverage. In retrospect, that had more to do with league standing (as compared to the relatively new MLS) than with the franchise popularity.

Macksam, it was never you who brought up registration as I recall, bit it certainly was Richard.

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Here's some TV ratings I found interesting.

682,000 per game average on TSN

438,000 to watch a relatively meaningless game only shown on TSN2!

1.3 million for the final.

"pretty impressive considering that is about the high water mark for Jays broadcasts on Sportsnet. It is also well over what any Raptors and Toronto FC games get, even when those teams had games on CBC"

Curling. The 2011 Tim Hortons Brier.

http://canadiansportsfan.wordpress.com/2011/03/15/to-anyone-who-thinks-nobody-watches-curling/

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Here's some TV ratings I found interesting.

682,000 per game average on TSN

438,000 to watch a relatively meaningless game only shown on TSN2!

1.3 million for the final.

"pretty impressive considering that is about the high water mark for Jays broadcasts on Sportsnet. It is also well over what any Raptors and Toronto FC games get, even when those teams had games on CBC"

Curling. The 2011 Tim Hortons Brier.

http://canadiansportsfan.wordpress.com/2011/03/15/to-anyone-who-thinks-nobody-watches-curling/

Yeah, but what's the break down for the GTA? ;) I kid, i kid...

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Here's some TV ratings I found interesting.

682,000 per game average on TSN

438,000 to watch a relatively meaningless game only shown on TSN2!

1.3 million for the final.

"pretty impressive considering that is about the high water mark for Jays broadcasts on Sportsnet. It is also well over what any Raptors and Toronto FC games get, even when those teams had games on CBC"

Curling. The 2011 Tim Hortons Brier.

http://canadiansportsfan.wordpress.com/2011/03/15/to-anyone-who-thinks-nobody-watches-curling/

I think this would illustrate my point that sports will only be popular in Canada on television when we are good at that sport, Canada is best curling nation by far.

The MLS was in flux untill 2002 when the USA made the quarter finals of the World Cup; would the MLS be on the same level it is now without the American national team doing well? In 1998 when the US team crapped out in the first round of the World Cup, MLS had serious problems and lost two teams and its sucess looked bleak.

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I made a mistake on the raptors, plain and simple. I ascribed popularity to them based on the density of media coverage. In retrospect, that had more to do with league standing (as compared to the relatively new MLS) than with the franchise popularity.

Macksam, it was never you who brought up registration as I recall, bit it certainly was Richard.

I don't think you did. I think you concur with the notion of the Raptors being more popular despite having half the ratings the Argos do.

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I'm a soccer fan but outside of a few pockets in Canada I don't see the soccer revolution.

Worth bearing in mind maybe that the 'few pockets' have much greater population density than 'the boonies', however. Once there are three MLS teams about 60% of the population will probably be in a reasonable single day round trip driving range of an MLS team. That combined with the ongoing youth soccer registration boom will mean that the sport has made significant progress into the cultural fabric of Canadian society even if it isn't uniform in nature from coast to coast. I can understand the presence of people on this board who like soccer but prefer other sports. What I still find slightly puzzling is people being here who actually appear to have significant tolerance issues when it comes to dealing with people who prefer soccer to hockey and the CFL and would like to see it eventually eclipse those sports. Should be natural enough for the hardcore fans of any sport be it rugby, lacrosse, or volleyball or whatever to have that sort of aspiration regardless of how likely it is to actually happen.

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Worth bearing in mind maybe that the 'few pockets' have much greater population density than 'the boonies', however. Once there are three MLS teams about 60% of the population will probably be in a reasonable single day round trip driving range of an MLS team. That combined with the ongoing youth soccer registration boom will mean that the sport has made significant progress into the cultural fabric of Canadian society even if it isn't uniform in nature from coast to coast. I can understand the presence of people on this board who like soccer but prefer other sports. What I still find slightly puzzling is people being here who actually appear to have significant tolerance issues when it comes to dealing with people who prefer soccer to hockey and the CFL and would like to see it eventually eclipse those sports. Should be natural enough for the hardcore fans of any sport be it rugby, lacrosse, or volleyball or whatever to have that sort of aspiration regardless of how likely it is to actually happen.

It's not the prospect of soccer being the most popular that people are taking issue with, it's

1) the absolute vitriol displayed towards other sports that are just as legitimate in Canada's spectrum

2) the dogmatic obsession with soccer being the only real sport around. They defame hockey, baseball, football, etc, etc. If you say you're a fan of other sports in addition to soccer it's as though you've just murdered their pope.

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I was going to reply to the reasonable response of BringBackTheBlizzard but Redcoatsforever stated the case perfectly.

Another reason is that we've heard this story for 40 years. In fact after five years TFC is losing some ground, the Jays have sold out their season opener and TFC did not. I do realize one game does not make a season.

Hockey in the USA has had tremendous increases in participation, in, of all places, California and Atlanta but that has still not translated to national viewership or increased popularity vs other sports.

But what really pisses some of us off is just the arrogance of some soccer fans who disparage other sports with zero evidence and when confronted with factual evidence, deny, deny, deny.

No media person has anything to lose by soccer achieving popularity, it would be just a different beat for a reporter. I'm sure most would want to cover hockey in Canada but somebody has to cover rugby and cricket. If you want to eat, you'll do it.

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It's not the prospect of soccer being the most popular that people are taking issue with, it's

1) the absolute vitriol displayed towards other sports that are just as legitimate in Canada's spectrum

2) the dogmatic obsession with soccer being the only real sport around. They defame hockey, baseball, football, etc, etc. If you say you're a fan of other sports in addition to soccer it's as though you've just murdered their pope.

Exactly. And I admire that you guys can debate this, but everytime I log onto this forum and see that this thread not only exists but is still growing strong, makes me want to vomit. Soccer will never overtake hockey. Ever. It's embarassing to have it up here. It makes us look like disillusioned children.

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So long as we culturally value the boonies over the cities, hockey will continue to be sold to us as the national game. I would assert that until soccer is strong in the boonies it will never get pride of place as a national sport.

Witness the mythology of baseball. We all have these images of it being a pastoral game of farmboys and small towns, which is totally untrue. Baseball is and has always been an urban sport. But if the boonies ever thought of it as an urban sport they probably would have let it die before the wars.

Soccer has a long way to go to be on par with hockey, and climate will always factor into that. We are not European in climate, we are Scandinavian. (left coast excluded)

The reason the Jays were sold out and not TFC comes down to the roof IMO.

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