Canada vs Venezuela (May 29th)

[jpg75]

You're stuck in the '90's Willie, Venezuela has developed alot in the past decade - to the point where they did NOT finish last in qualifying the last 3 times and actually got some good results against their fellow "South American" counterparts. They've also built an 18 team league and are now competing in the Copa Libertadores.

http://www.fifa.com/worldcup/preliminaries/southamerica/standings/index.html

8th place, ahead of Bolivia and Peru for 2010. They were 2 points away from Uruguay for the 5th/playoff spot.

http://www.fifa.com/worldcup/archive/germany2006/preliminaries/preliminary=7302/index.html

Tied for 8th with Peru, ahead of Bolivia. 7 points from 5th/playoff spot in 2006.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_FIFA_World_Cup_qualification_(CONMEBOL)

Tied for 8th with Peru, ahead of Chile. 11 points from playoff spot in 2002.

Also, their U20's qualified for the first time to the U20 WC last year.

[El Hombre]

Venezeula is very much the black sheep of the Comnebol family in that regard so people should not get carried away about this 1-1 result. Good result but not a spectacular one.

I don't think anyone in this thread really viewed it as a spectacular result or thinks we're world beaters now. What it was was a relief to finally score a goal and a good experience for our kids playing away at altitude, especially after the 5-0 "setback" (as Loubardias called it). Not sure why you felt the need to come in and temper everyone's appreciation for seeing a decent game played.

Also, Venezuela was only 2 points out of the playoff spot in CONMEBOL qualifying and their U20 team made it out of the group stage at the last World Cup. If Venezuela is the black sheep of CONMEBOL, then what is Bolivia and Peru?

[youllneverwalkalone]

^Don't go questioning BBTB about sheep. This is a subject he knows intimately, if you know what I'm saying. Not sure why he's equating black with bad, undesirable, lowly. Seems weird to me that he prefers white sheep to black sheep, but who am I to say? The whole thing is off from the get-go.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

Would have thought it obvious that the concern is that people will now completely overlook the 5-0 "setback" against Argentina and things will carry on as usual where the CMNT is concerned into yet another underachieving performance during the 2014 qualifiers. Given the attempts that are now appearing on this page to talk up Venezuela as a soccer nation that process appears to me to possibly be underway now. There is something that Bolivia, Peru and Canada have all done but Venezuela has not. Do you know what it is, El Hombre?

[jpg75]

Ya know what Willie, alot of teams get blasted by Argentina. It's a reminder that we are nowhere close to competing at the very top level, but i think most of us already realized that.

Venezuela is a nation that is much closer to us in strength and who have had some favourable results lately (draw against Japan, draw and win over N.Korea, win over Honduras etc.). The fact that our B team was able to gut out a 1-1 draw on their soil against their B team and in the process we were able to identify some potential contributors to the next WC campaign is a positive.

[Trillium]

Down from the Mountains....

A number of comments after watching the game live.

The strikers .. up front were not of national team quality ... 16 had no work rate at all in my opinion and did not read the game well at all ... no sense of when to make a off ball run for offensive or defensive purpose, he also tries to go up for headed balls again and again against a defender who is a head and half taller, that combined with the fact he has no vertical jump .... horrible in my opinion, his ball control skills were found out on the first long ball played to him from the back where he let the ball bounce of him.. a good four metres.

If our strikers cant score then put someone up front with a high work rate to create offensiver third pressure, and lay the ball back to midfield to score coming through.

That said we did knock the ball around well at times and in my opinion should have scored in the first half .... this game was winable.

The team was on the field very early so pre-game might have affected some of the players.

All in all a good result and the first block in 2014 qualifying for Brasil.

Argentina showed where we need to go ... Merida shows we can begin to build to get there.

Hopefully some young player will emerge from CSL teams this year and next to put some speed into the team in all areas.

1600 metres .. mmm not sure it was a pretty deep valley, but clearly it was tiresome if you were not used to it.

[Trillium]

All the more reason we need a series of Official Voyageurs Pubs... with a decal on the door and committment to show the games etc.

Its time the Vs stopped being catch as catch can and got some corporate things going.

Wow was I impressed with Sidra's contribution to the game. I have never seen a Canadian sub come into a game and change the dynamic as much as he odid. I loved his fearless runs with the ball, the confidence it showed in our jersey that we aren't afraid to make runs towards defenders. Normally we'd get ourselves cornered after a player went so far and then stopped due to a lack of confidence carrying the ball against opposition defenders, but Sidra went out and tore up the left side of the pitch. It was exciting football to say the least.

Great story for you guys regarding our experience here in Saskatoon. So, after searching frantically for a place to watch the match, seeing as how it was both an NHL playoff night AND a UFC fight night, we finally found Specklebellies on Central Ave would accommodate us with a single tv, which was perfectly fine and all we needed. That accommodation was the one and only thing they did for us, however. So I asked before choosing the place, "can we be guaranteed audio for the match?" to which they replied "yeah that won't be a problem." Wrong. Kick-off is seconds away, and after having asked the waitress repeatedly regarding having some audio put on, I finally went up to one of the bartenders to find out why we still had no sound. His reply is classic: "Umm we're not going to do that, because no one here likes soccer... at all! So no." And so I stood there wide-eyed for a second, and finally he says "Are you ok with that?", and rather than call him a ****ing ******* in front of other patrons and the other two meatbag bartenders (who could easily turn me into minute-steak), I just said "yeah I guess so..." turned around and walked back to the table, told Jordan and Steve, took a sip of my pint, and sat back to cheer us on.

That wasn't the end of it, though. We missed the tying goal as the same bartender flipped our tv to the UFC fight, before it started, with about 3 minutes left in regulation. Never been treated like such **** before at a drinking hole, but all I can say is that if you come to Saskatoon, stay away from Specklebellies unless you want to deal with chotchy ****bag bartenders.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

Most Canadian soccer fans tuned out the national team a long time ago just as most pro soccer fans in southern Ontario tuned out the Lynx because they already knew the script of what would happen in the years ahead. Hopefully eventually there will be a TFC-like change of culture where the CMNT is concerned. The Venezuela game does not change the fact that "we are nowhere close to competing at the very top level". Australia have made greater strides in that direction despite facing many of the same challenges. It would be good to see a bit more activism on a board like this to push for similar things to happen in a Canadian context.

[Gian-Luca]

That wasn't even what I posted. I pointed out that baseball rather than soccer is the top sport in Venezuela because I saw a blog entry on the front page that talked in terms of "a South American opponent", which appeared to imply that Venezuela can be viewed as being similar to the rest of that continent in soccer terms.

http://www.cansoc.org/entry.php?15-Can-t-Beat-the-Canadian-Kids

That was surreal.

Imagine if you will Canada trailing by a goal in 2nd half injury time against a South American opponent on their home turf, not having scored in nearly a year, and who do we have out there to end the drought and get an equalizer? ...

Venezeula is very much the black sheep of the Comnebol family in that regard so people should not get carried away about this 1-1 result. Good result but not a spectacular one.

That first paragraph of my blog entry is about playing up the drama of the situation Canada found itself in - trying to sum up the surreal feeling of seeing Canada get a last-minute equalizer on the road with an almost completely unrecognizable line-up on the field at the time. Later in that blog I call Venezuela a "decent team" and also state:

"Okay, Venezuela isn't a great team, not the level of a World Cup entrant and they were playing a lot of younger players as well, but getting a result with our own inexperienced (internationally, and in terms of playing together) group of players is something to find encouraging, particularly the way they did it."

which I think makes it fairly clear that I'm not getting carried away with any delusions of grandeur. FWIW my previous blog entry on the Argentina match indicated my belief that had Canada been able to send a full-strength squad to that game it probably would have only made a difference of a goal or two less in the final outcome.

[Guest Ed]

Most Canadian soccer fans tuned out the national team a long time ago just as most pro soccer fans in southern Ontario tuned out the Lynx because they already knew the script of what would happen in the years ahead. Hopefully eventually there will be a TFC-like change of culture where the CMNT is concerned. The Venezuela game does not change the fact that "we are nowhere close to competing at the very top level". Australia have made greater strides in that direction despite facing many of the same challenges. It would be good to see a bit more activism on a board like this to push for similar things to happen in a Canadian context.

Thanks for the reality check. Alas, I've spent the last 25 years or so supporting a lost cause. Can we change the name of this forum? Tool.

[Trillium]

Canada's goal in Merida, 29/05/2010

http://www.flickr.com/photos/28012750@N06/4657085054/

[guppy]

Like everyone else I was immediately impressed by Sidra. Too bad he didn't play all game. N-Farran worked hard. True, sometimes you wonder about his effectiveness, but still, he was very active.

Its the younger guys who are bringing it. So start them! We saw Sidra for a few minutes, and not again for months?

Venezuela left Stalteri alone, focussing rather on the other side, which seemed to be really out of sorts.

Was Stalteri lucky to be left alone or he did play much better this time around? Does it matter? Because he's not the future, as a player, anyway, so does it really matter.. no, not really.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

Thanks for the reality check. Alas, I've spent the last 25 years or so supporting a lost cause. Can we change the name of this forum? Tool.

I have been following the fortunes of the CMNT for a similar length of time and can even remember that it hasn't always been a lost cause e.g. the Gold Cup win under Holger Osieck. If you had read all the way through to the end of that last post you would have seen what my motivation for posting was. Instead of accepting that "we are nowhere close to competing at the very top level" I'd like to see more of a culture of activism amongst the fan base of the CMNT to encourage the kind of changes in approach that has helped Australia make greater progress towards actually being able to compete at the top level despite the fact that Australian soccer has faced many of the same challenges faced in a Canadian context.

[Seb of Mtl]

i dont wanna jinx anything but we have something to build on -- when we least expect it, it will happen -- we continue to build with the talent we have, we will qualify in 2014.

[jpg75]

I have been following the fortunes of the CMNT for a similar length of time and can even remember that it hasn't always been a lost cause e.g. the Gold Cup win under Holger Osieck. If you had read all the way through to the end of that last post you would have seen what my motivation for posting was. Instead of accepting that "we are nowhere close to competing at the very top level" I'd like to see more of a culture of activism amongst the fan base of the CMNT to encourage the kind of changes in approach that has helped Australia make greater progress towards actually being able to compete at the top level despite the fact that Australian soccer has faced many of the same challenges faced in a Canadian context.

So you want us to find a billionaire who wants to change the face of the sport, work with the federation and fund the start of a new league? Cool. Tell us when you find that person.

If you hadn't noticed alot of people have been pissed off on this board for a long time and some have done something about it and have invoked change at the CSA. Slowly the system is coming around and over the last say 5 years some baby steps have turned into downright strides. The future is looking rosier right now, but it's going to take time. Getting behind the players and filling the stadium at our 2 home games this Fall is what is needed and not increased activism.

[Free kick]

As long as the rules are what they are, we should be applauding ourselves for finding this guy. We are not doing anything different than other teams in doing this. If anything, as Canadian club soccer gets better and we can attract better players we should be doing more of this. In the upcoming World Cup you could probably pretty much field a 2nd Brazil team of Brazilian players playing for countries other than Brazil. If you think Canada is going to change the rules by lobbying FIFA you are dreaming. I disagree with these rules as much as anyone but as long as these are the rules of international soccer then we have to play by them to the best of our advantage. Why should we be at more of a disadvantage than we already are?

Absolutely. And I would add that: if you were to look at the some of international sides who actaully made some strides and progress in the last 20-30 years, you'll notice that the strategy of finding and importing talent ( that was born abroad) has played a big part of the turning the corner.

I am thinking of sides like Japan whereby Brazilians born players were the initial stars who paved the way. Often, your progress is limited due to cultural reasons or the enrvironment that you have to face ( climate, competition from other sports..etc). Maybe, the skills that canada needs to turn the corner cant be produced in a development system that still largely a volunteer and recreationally driven. Or, maybe, you need 12 months of summer to develop the talent with the creativity that you need in the final third of the pitch. Or, strong competition from sports of a higher profile (domestically) robs of you of all your best young athletic talent. Japan has shown that importing certain foriegners has shown the way and spawned a subsequent generation of talent.

We need to do same and, yes, one way we can do this is through the emergence of our domestic game.

[Grizzly]

^^^ To continue with this line of thought, if you ask most soccer fans why they don't support our national team, most will say it is because we suck. Yet if we compare our national team to some of the teams they do support one can see that these teams are often bolstered by foreign players who came to play in their leagues. Portugal for example, has 4 foreign born players including Fernandes and I am even being nice and not including the guys from their former colony Cape Verde. From Brazil they have Deco, Liedson and Pepe. I wonder how much Canada would have sucked in the last WCQ if we could have fielded 3 foreign players of similar quality to those three. One can go through many of the lineups of teams in Europe and find a similar situation to that of Portugal. In CONCACAF it is also no different, Mexico has nationalized a lot of South American players and the Carribean islands are also famous for playing guys who have roots in the islands but have never lived there. In my opinion what the Canadian national team needs most of all to succeed in the future is some success in the present and we have to achieve this however we can given the current rules of international soccer. I believe that FIFA has made a mockery of international soccer with its rules but if other countries are using the rules to their benefit we have to do the same, otherwise we will never be competitive.

[Juby]

if you ask most soccer fans why they don't support our national team, most will say it is because we suck.

Most people haven't watched a game or are aware of anything involving the nats, therefore their just talking to hear the sound of their own voice. There are a few national teams out there who are historically worse but they still have fans. All I can say is tease them for being a big wig bandwagoner(say something like, lemme guess, your a lakers fan? and 2 years before that, lemme guess, Celtics fan), or call them on their **** like 'ohh you saw them play? what game?' and then when you find out their just trying to sound like the understand a topic they know nothing about or their just regurgitating what footiephobic loser in their family told them as kids, then you start giggling and tease them about anything from fickleness to their lack of patriotism to thier willingness to pretend their way into topics. At the very least it will make that person too embarressed to say 'canada sucks' until they have some real information to back it up. A good tease is ask them who their favorite NHL team is and then ask them if they started to suck would they jump ship, they'd say no, and you say of course you would, you won't even support your country cause they quote unquote suck.

The problem is awareness, TFC is in the national psyche more then the nats. For your average person, if someone mentions the nats, they have nothing, nothing (maybe a mention of the gold cup win) in their brain to contribute or analyze except some equally ignorant moron (who loves to seem knowledgable) who said 'canada sucks' in a desperate bid for attention.

That's why I was recommending (unrealistically) a bit ago we give away jersey's, if alot of people have canada jersey's sitting around in the back of their closet even if they don't care about soccer, then when they (or family memebers) first realize the may like soccer and someone asks them say 'what's your favorite team?' if they are drawing a blank then theirs a good chance they go with Canada.

[Free kick]

Most people haven't watched a game or are aware of anything involving the nats, therefore their just talking to hear the sound of their own voice. There are a few national teams out there who are historically worse but they still have fans. All I can say is tease them for being a big wig bandwagoner(say something like, lemme guess, your a lakers fan? and 2 years before that, lemme guess, Celtics fan), or call them on their **** like 'ohh you saw them play? what game?' and then when you find out their just trying to sound like the understand a topic they know nothing about or their just regurgitating what footiephobic loser in their family told them as kids, then you start giggling and tease them about anything from fickleness to their lack of patriotism to thier willingness to pretend their way into topics. At the very least it will make that person too embarressed to say 'canada sucks' until they have some real information to back it up. A good tease is ask them who their favorite NHL team is and then ask them if they started to suck would they jump ship, they'd say no, and you say of course you would, you won't even support your country cause they quote unquote suck.

The problem is awareness, TFC is in the national psyche more then the nats. For your average person, if someone mentions the nats, they have nothing, nothing (maybe a mention of the gold cup win) in their brain to contribute or analyze except some equally ignorant moron (who loves to seem knowledgable) who said 'canada sucks' in a desperate bid for attention.

That's why I was recommending (unrealistically) a bit ago we give away jersey's, if alot of people have canada jersey's sitting around in the back of their closet even if they don't care about soccer, then when they (or family memebers) first realize the may like soccer and someone asks them say 'what's your favorite team?' if they are drawing a blank then theirs a good chance they go with Canada.

It's way too easy to dismiss everyone who doesn't follow the NT's as much as other sides as bandwagon jumpers or naive of the game. That's just not true in very many cases. I've met many who really know the game and have passion but have a ho hum view of our accomplishments. Everyone has different barometer success what they consider worthwhile of their emotional support. Just because you don't support (by your definition)doesn't always mean that you dont route for them or that you don't have an emotional attachment to that side ( in this case our national side). It just means that if you believe that the ultimate outcome is a foregone conclusion, then you'll take pass on spending your money or consider alternative forms of diversions or entertainment. You may consider that beating St Vincent and the Grenadines an achievement but someone who also knows the game very well may know very well that St Vincent and that Grenadines is not Argentina. So does it make that person a naive fan for knowing the difference between St Vincent and the Grenadines and Argentina? Its all about diversions, entertainment and ultimately bragging rights and maybe you have a passion for the game and Canada but don't consider beating St Vincent worthy of bragging rights. Does that make you more naive or less of fan than someone who cant tell the difference between St Vincent and Argentina but is out there in full colours signing their lungs out?

Most people consider WC and WCQ as the ultimate measure of success and I don't think that there is much disputing that fact. Its affords you the greatest bragging rights.

So yeah, matches and results matter for a lot of people, as is how you are playing. The whole business rests on "Hope", but if you feel that there is no hope? Does that make you naive? Take the example of your favoured pro sports team in the various leagues, do you follow that team to the same degree in a season when they are near the bottom of the standings as you do when they are in first place and vying for a championship? I have my teams as well and one them ( a few years back) suddenly got very good and I found myself not missing an NFL game when they were on the tube. I didn't ignore them (or the NFL) previously, but winning championships has that effect on you. You may watch or still pay to watch but you are just not on the edge of you seat watching a last place team.

My definition of a bandwagon jumper extended beyond that of the guy who only pays attention when your winning to also include the guy who is still naive and ignorant of the team and the game. Best example of bandwagon jumpers: a majority of the 50K who flooded to watch the blue jays in the early nineties.

[Juby]

I really think the people your describing have far too much tact and knowledge to go around saying 'canada sucks', if they had any clue and a bit of patriotism they'd say it a helluvalot nicer than that.

[Bertuzzi44]

I really think the people your describing have far too much tact and knowledge to go around saying 'canada sucks', if they had any clue and a bit of patriotism they'd say it a helluvalot nicer than that.

My pet peeve is people who will wear the Red and White and cheer for Canada in ice hockey, like Team Canada at the Olympics or World Juniors, but then all of a sudden become Italian or Chinese or Ukranian when it comes to soccer.

What? The Italian national ice hockey team not good enough for you?

It's always easier to cheer for a winner, but I find it more rewarding to support the nation I want to see win...

[Ivan]

My pet peeve is people who will wear the Red and White and cheer for Canada in ice hockey, like Team Canada at the Olympics or World Juniors, but then all of a sudden become Italian or Chinese or Ukranian when it comes to soccer.

What? The Italian national ice hockey team not good enough for you?

It's always easier to cheer for a winner, but I find it more rewarding to support the nation I want to see win...

Great post!

[Seb of Mtl]

Great post!

i second that -- it irritates me and gets under my skin

[Cheeta]

My pet peeve is people who will wear the Red and White and cheer for Canada in ice hockey, like Team Canada at the Olympics or World Juniors, but then all of a sudden become Italian or Chinese or Ukranian when it comes to soccer.

What? The Italian national ice hockey team not good enough for you?

It's always easier to cheer for a winner, but I find it more rewarding to support the nation I want to see win...

Know what you're saying. Don't agree though in that it feels like you're over-simplifying things.

Long Answer

Ice hockey is important to Canadians. Italians, or Chinese, or Ukrainian Canadians support Canadian hockey because they support their Canadian community. They were supporting Canadian ice hockey during the lean decades when the Soviets and Europeans owned international ice hockey. They did so because A). Even if you didn't grow up with it, in the proper environment you can't help but learn just how much ice hockey rocks. And . More importantly for this discussion a lot of hyphenated Canadians want to be part of the on going evolution of what it is to be Canadian. "Domestic" Canada long ago attached a passionate part of our identity to ice hockey. A passion which has spanned the generations. Is there a better way for citizens of choice to proclaim their want for belonging to the Canadian community than by supporting Canadian hockey?

Soccer has never had the same hold on Canada. Most of our lives we haven't even had a domestic league never even mind the idea of National Team exposure. Soccer isn't attached to the broad sense of Canadian community. But it is to certain "ethnic" communities. If you identify with one of the many small communities which make up the Canadian mosaic, by birth or by heritage it doesn't really matter, it can be a pretty easy task to detach your Canadian identity from something as unimportant to the Canadian psyche as soccer in order to affirm your belonging to a community within Canada which has a very important attachment to the sport. And in the big scheme of things they can do so without any real harm done.

Short Answer

When 25% of Canadians (domestic, ethnic, whatever) care about Canadian footie with 50% of the passion with which they care about Canadian ice hockey the 25% of "foreign born" persons who make up the Canadian population and are soccer crazy and are currently spreading their footballing loyalty over a 100 nations will buy into supporting Canadian soccer.

Just my humble opinion.

[Grizzly]

^^ Don't disagree with your points though I also don't think Bertuzzi is oversimplifying things. However, it is wrong to say there were ever lean years in hockey. We always had the best league in the world and also had the best national team in the world that won the majority of tournaments we played in whenever we were allowed to bring our best players. We knew that and the Europeans knew that. The fact that the Europeans came up with tournaments in which we couldn't play our best players and they could play theirs didn't change anyones opinion on either side of the pond about who was really the best. Even when we have a bad Olympics people know it is just a one-off. Yes hockey is probably strong enough culturally to survive some lean years but even then we would have so many years of success to refer back to that it is hard to determine how popular it would be.

Regardless, it is human nature to support a winner and as hard as it is for Canada to improve in soccer it is even harder to change human nature. Thus, we need to have success and use all means within the rules to achieve it. And to be fair to those who don't support Canada, you have to be pretty hardcore to be following a team listening to Jamaican or St. Vincent radio broadcasts or even Sportsnet broadcasts on 30 minute delays. If your European team misses the World Cup you can still watch them right after in Euro qualifications and possibly the Euro itself. Yet our confederation doesn't even have a decent continental championship. The Gold Cup should be a well promoted tournament played in different countries every 4 years with A teams but in reality is a biannual competition, played in the US mostly with B teams. So we really have one serious tournament every 4 years and we haven't even made it to the final round of WCQ since 1997. It is really hard to argue against the idea that we suck because by any objective analysis we do. While I agree with Bertuzzi that we should support the team anyway, we are being naive if we think the majority of Canadians (or people of any nationality in a similar situation) will do so. And for every ethnic Canadian who told me, "Canadian soccer sucks" I have heard an equal number who said "I wish Canada would qualify for the World Cup so I would have two teams to support."

After an impressive run of results, when the Impact ended up in the quarter-final against a good foreign team in a prestigious tournament 55 000 people showed up for the game in Montreal. That is probably significantly more than will show up for Wednesday's game against star-studded AC Milan. I think if we had a similar run in WCQ and were playing big teams in the final qualification round we could get similar numbers of people out. We just need to have some success for this to happen.