ag futbol Posted February 13, 2008 Share Posted February 13, 2008 quote:Originally posted by Free kick You stated that: "Whatever the CSF does is going to affect things at the NT level", But I see no evidence of that. I agree that "we don't have to worry about the V's board degrading into some kind of policy wonk forum relating to minor soccer" but that is what I see here. And I see more criticism for the sake criticism rather than constructive ideas backed up by verifiable evidence. It talks in great deal about and vague statement like : 1) "unresponsive to the needs of players, coaches and administrators" 2) "failed to add sufficient value to their membership in order to justify the significant (and growing) registration “taxes” that they extract" 3) And my favourite "The time has come for a new National Governing Body for soccer in Canada, possessing a vision, a mission and a mandate to restructure the way the sport is governed and administered in order to meet the challenges of the 21st century and to move soccer forward with a greater sense of optimism and vibrancy." What should the vision, mission and mandate be? and what are the challenges of the 21st century? What I saw instead from reading between the lines in all that is that they don't want to give anymore $$$ to the CSA and think that the grassroots should keep it for themselves. It always comes down to $$$ doesn't it? If anyone cared about the NT, they would also worry about funding. Fair enough, those are legitimate criticisms. I’m not going to bother counter-pointing them as it’s not my initiative but they seem like problems which either could be solved or potentially addressed in a more detailed document. And yes this group is primarily composed of supporters, but given the chance to step outside of the normal realm and do something to improve conditions in this country, I think it is worth while. There are quite a few people who post here that I would consider knowledgable, that might have something to add to what the CSF is doing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soju Posted February 13, 2008 Share Posted February 13, 2008 quote:Originally posted by JB_Tito What makes you think he doesn't? How many JDG2 have to happened in this country? We have group of people that really want to see some changes done.They are out trying to do something,and what they get is being put in the same pot with CSA BoD.Keep bitching and looking for wrong names in this movement that what we do best moan and do jack s**t. Well all I can say is Welcome to mediocrity of Canadian Soccer In an article he insults people who support Canada and encourages Canadian athletes to play for other nations. I question this guy's loyalty to Canada based on that article. Yeah I'm really in the same pot as the CSA for pointing that out, well played pal. Looks like you belong in that pot too for being so defensive when someone raises a pretty obvious concern. I'm 100% in support of any movement to reform Canadian Soccer but I'm certainly going to question weird **** like this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RamR Posted February 13, 2008 Share Posted February 13, 2008 I've just finished reading the D&T document and all I can say is that I'm left with my jaw on the floor. I'm amazed that there were so many logical recommendations necessary and even more amazed that they seemingly have not been acted upon. The end of the document indicates that on the outside the changes would take 3-4 years to become completely ingrained in the system, had they acted quickly and competently at the time we would almost be through that adjustment period. The one thing that I was thinking regularly while reading the document was that it would be amazing to hear from someone from D&T regarding their study of the CSA. Maybe an interview to weed through a bit of the jargon and get the human perspective. Potentially even more valuable would be to have someone who was involved in the review participate in an organization like CSF. I'm not sure if there is anyone who would be interested in this or whether there are legalities that would prevent it, all I am suggesting is that it would be great. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Posted February 13, 2008 Share Posted February 13, 2008 I suspect that the majority of CSA directors were/are too timid, insecure and inexperienced to dare to make the decision to accept the Deloitte report and implement it. Much easier simply not to rock the boat but carry on as before. There is a distressing record of strategic plans and studies commissioned - good and bad - that have never been implemented, indeed were probably forgotten within a week of being published. Classic bureaucratic delaying tactic, order a study or strike a royal commission. Has the optics of action but is really meaningless if you have no intention of really doing anything as a result, at least during your term in office anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Posted February 13, 2008 Share Posted February 13, 2008 It's not as if the current rumblings have involved a few insignificant fans in the local pub, the CSF document and the publication of the D&T report has made the mainstream media. Wonder if and when we might get some sort of public response from the CSA board or acting president or if they plan on ignoring this groundswell in the hope it will just go away in due course and they can just carry on as before as if nothing happened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squid2 Posted February 14, 2008 Share Posted February 14, 2008 quote:Originally posted by Richard It's not as if the current rumblings have involved a few insignificant fans in the local pub, the CSF document and the publication of the D&T report has made the mainstream media. Wonder if and when we might get some sort of public response from the CSA board or acting president or if they plan on ignoring this groundswell in the hope it will just go away in due course and they can just carry on as before as if nothing happened. I asked that same question, almost. Sent an e-mail to this individual: Dominique Maestracci, Interim President of the CSA, at this email: dmaestracci@soccercan.ca. No reply, yet. Maybe you could try as well..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest speedmonk42 Posted February 14, 2008 Share Posted February 14, 2008 Why would they respond? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rdroze Posted February 14, 2008 Share Posted February 14, 2008 quote:Originally posted by Richard It's not as if the current rumblings have involved a few insignificant fans in the local pub, the CSF document and the publication of the D&T report has made the mainstream media. Where have you seen mention of the CSF document in the mainstream media? All I've seen so far is Ben Knight's blog article. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Ref Posted February 14, 2008 Share Posted February 14, 2008 My bet is that until the stiffs in the CSA feel threatened they will ignore the CSF. So much the better. Some things when ignored they tend to come back and bite you in your behind. As to responding to emails, maybe the president don't read English. The CSF is a sure winner and as it gets momentum people will start jumping on board. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squid2 Posted February 14, 2008 Share Posted February 14, 2008 quote:Originally posted by RamR The one thing that I was thinking regularly while reading the document was that it would be amazing to hear from someone from D&T regarding their study of the CSA. Maybe an interview to weed through a bit of the jargon and get the human perspective. Potentially even more valuable would be to have someone who was involved in the review participate in an organization like CSF. RamR's a thinker, well done... Already happening, but go to the head of the class anyway... How about people who represented the CSA and assisted D&T with the report? How do you think the document found it's way to the CSF? CSF are being thrown bones, very soon more than one skeleton will be constructed and the closets will be identified. Finally, facts in the shape of documents, i.e. copies of emails, internal memos, etc.... and the trail extends to the provincial associations, not all, but more than one! The wagons have circled and those left out of the circle have started to adopt a "CYA" mentality as an immediate priority. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squid2 Posted February 14, 2008 Share Posted February 14, 2008 quote:Originally posted by speedmonk42 Why would they respond? transparency, openness.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VPjr Posted February 14, 2008 Share Posted February 14, 2008 quote:Originally posted by rdroze Where have you seen mention of the CSF document in the mainstream media? All I've seen so far is Ben Knight's blog article. Bobby McMahon from FSWC will be mentioning the CSF document in his blog this week (and maybe on the Friday episode of the Soccer Report....fingers crossed). the Soccer Show on the Fan590 has invited Flynn Beharry from CSF to discuss the report tomorrow evening. A couple of other journos have been asking questions and will likely be running stories in the next few days. We expect a much bigger groundswell of media coverage after the meeting on the 28th. I think a room full of club execs, ex-players, media types, etc... will raise eyebrows and spark media discussion inevitably. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kye Posted February 14, 2008 Share Posted February 14, 2008 Excellent work you guys. I really like some of your ideas and look forward to reading a more indepth version of them when you publish your supliment. Keep up the good work and good luck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fan Posted February 14, 2008 Share Posted February 14, 2008 To clarify the CSA are just not equipped to handle the level that the organization has reached. They dont have the business or marketing acumen to prosper in the present state of abundant opportunity that surrounds them. However alas that is totally irrelevant as I outline the reasons why below. They have been an amateur group of friends that worked together and became overwhelmed, tyrannical and selfish. Their lack of transparency developed out of fear of exposing their ignorance and incompetence. They isolated themselves and exposed themselves embarrassingly in the stadium fiasco to the whole world and recently the junior cup, at least financially. About 20 years ago they systematically took control of soccer in Canada at the professional level and burned almost all of the sponsors and wealthy soccer fans who were willing to support soccer. They eliminated all top soccer in Canada professionally even the visiting of top clubs. They discouraged professional exhibitions through officious and financial qualifications that would make even the most wealthy Canadian soccer supporter refuse to attempt any future exhibitions. The Canadian soccer fan would be prevented from witnessing any elite soccer on Canadian soil for decades. The sponsors ran away and the wealthy soccer fans and soccer coach's went private developing stars on their own. Sending them off to learn and prosper in other parts of the world, some of them with the elite clubs in the world. Parents with talented kids also got burned by the CSA if not ignored and they easily made the wise choice to be trained privately by elite staffs in Canada and then move to more qualified club staffs around the world. The Canadian fan started noticing inevitably all the talent scattered and some players in complete anonymity for years. Candian players who risked their professional careers to play for their country are mistreated and ignored by the CSA to the point where they to will not attempt to return. Next qualified and skilled coach's and managers are in succession exposed to the same kind of experience as the players and they run away in shorter and shorter periods of time , some even never making to their first day. The finances were obscure and the budgets were not delivered on time or with any transparency and fans were left feeling suspicious. The Board of directors splintered under the pressure and became unapproachable, uncommunicative and defensive. Now top important positions are not filled and nobody of any stature even wants the positions if offered. FIFA is a passive voyeur with no will to intervene and the remaining CSA directors are seemingly unaccountable to anyone. They can go on without penalty in perpetuity. Any one counter group like the CSF faces the daunting task of even getting an ear with FIFA. All the while left to answer the fans who are angry and want to vent on anyone. Media pressure seems like the only avenue left but again the CSA have no need to care or listen as they have demonstrated clearly over the last 20 years. Putting out well adorned spin to the fans and media while shining up the boots of FIFA is all that is required to maintain their status for decades. And each one of the remaining board members knows this implicitly and inherently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest speedmonk42 Posted February 14, 2008 Share Posted February 14, 2008 quote:Originally posted by youllneverwalkalone What's with the National Registry? Is that to keep track of talented pplayers abroad with Canadian roots? Or is it where the soccer mums pay their fee fund this whole thing, thereby giving them a say in whether or not we hire Rene Simoes. Oh lord. Sometimes I wish this website would auto drive a stake through my skull. Can you even freaking IMAGINE what 900 000 + 1.5 million Dependants might be worth in an opt in marketing program? Blame that 100% on the provincial associations NOT the CSA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest speedmonk42 Posted February 14, 2008 Share Posted February 14, 2008 quote:Originally posted by squid2 transparency, openness.... NO. They don't have to. Because they are accredited by FIFA!!! And trust me, unless someone has millions in cash to drop on Jack Warners next scheme, this is ALL A WASTE OF TIME. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest speedmonk42 Posted February 14, 2008 Share Posted February 14, 2008 Survey: How many people here have talked to at least 10 senior executives of different community soccer clubs? HINT: They might not even know there is a national team. If that does not put things into perspective WRT the CSA, I don't know what will. That says TWO important things. 1. It illustrates the CSA's failure of leadership. 2. It also shows what the CSA is up against. A catch 22. Now, imagine those people in those clubs CHANGING every year. What the fck do you do? Then the provincial associations won't even tell you WHO THEY ARE! You guys can rail all you want on the CSA, but without a sense of perspective that illustrates a failure of leadership from top to BOTTOM, it is a waste of time. And this is coming from someone who uses the words TRUCK, BOMB and CSA in the same sentence EVERY MONTH. It is failure of leadership and vision. Change that and nothing else matters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Ault Posted February 14, 2008 Share Posted February 14, 2008 quote:Originally posted by speedmonk42 it is a waste of time. That's the spirit [)] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free kick Posted February 14, 2008 Share Posted February 14, 2008 quote:Originally posted by speedmonk42 NO. They don't have to. Because they are accredited by FIFA!!! And trust me, unless someone has millions in cash to drop on Jack Warners next scheme, this is ALL A WASTE OF TIME. Agreed 100%. This talk of transparency is utterly cliché. They are accredited by FIFA and anyone who thinks that FIFA is transparent would need to have their heads examined. The same could be said about every other national soccer association around the world. Or for that matter the international Olympic committee. Besides, you could make a good case that if they were less transparent, they might be in a better predicament. The whole Colin Linford episode illustrates the problem that they were too transparent. Had they been less transparent in the Simoes situation, they would have been far better off PR wise. the irony or catch 22 is the fodder for much of the criticism come from too much transparency. You cant argue ( as some have here) that you want the national association should be run like a business and at the same time state that they should be more transparent. Its contradictory and extremely naive to expect that. Private sector organization are not expected and never should be transparant beyond the regulatory requiremenst. Many of the harahest critics who scream: "transparancy" are not even transparent themselves. In fact they are the least transparent people on this forum. You only need to look at their comments and views and why is it that no one ( or very few) have ever met them in person. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ag futbol Posted February 14, 2008 Share Posted February 14, 2008 Sorry but I’m going to yell BS at that one. Go read a few annual reports and compare it to the “requirements”, then tell me what the differences are. There’s plenty of stuff offered by corporations that goes beyond the minimum regulatory requirements. Now why do they do this? Because they have stakeholders, much like the CSA does. They need information, the organization needs their cooperation. The idea that FIFA doesn’t require transparency, who cares? Does it matter to them if we’re effective as an organization, clearly not. Being transparent caused problems with Linford and Simmoes, that’s a load of crap. The problem isn’t media coverage, it is that actions like this are taking place. Just because we dont' know about it, doesn't make it any better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
youllneverwalkalone Posted February 14, 2008 Share Posted February 14, 2008 quote:Originally posted by speedmonk42 Sometimes I wish this website would auto drive a stake through my skull. Can you even freaking IMAGINE what 900 000 + 1.5 million Dependants might be worth in an opt in marketing program? Blame that 100% on the provincial associations NOT the CSA. I think you might seriously consider offing yourself. I realize it must be very frustrating having to communicate with us yobs at your high *speed* level of intellect. I'm quite surprised though that you haven't become the silent benefactor of Canadian Soccer given the millions you must have made in marketing with that giant brain of yours. I don't know much about marketing and I doubt very much that the CSF have considered selling data collected by their national registry. Still, I have a couple observations. Bare with me, I'm not up to extremely high level of intellect of Grandmaster Speedmonk which surely surpasses all humans, gods, and demi-gods: I work with a lot of NPOs who are in the process of contructing databases. Recently I was at a client who built one for approximately 5,000 members. It cost several hundred thousands of dollars. I'm sure there are economies of scale at some point, but this registry looks like an expensive project and, marketing opportunities aside, appears to be the invention of wannabe bureaucrats. I agree the data on 800,000 families is probably worth something. (Though there are likely fewer than 800,000 families as many families would have at least two kids playing at one time). But my concerns would be two-fold: First, many people would have a problem with the Organization selling their personal info and would expect some serious cost savings on registration fees in return. This type of return is suspect to me because of the capital costs involved with starting the project. Second, and things may have changed, but when I was a kid playing soccer in Vancouver all the kids on my team had one thing in common: we had at least one foreign parent (who inevitably is a spendthrift) and we were all too poor to play hockey. This makes my wonder as to the astronomical value that Speedy puts on such data. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L.T. Posted February 14, 2008 Share Posted February 14, 2008 several hundred thousands of dollars for a database? I'd love to get in on that business! As for the soccer demographic - you are talking out of your you-know-what... There have been a number of demographic studies done that show the Canadian soccer family is fairly well off compared to the general public and represents a highly desirable consumer target... You want people you respect your opinions? Show that they are not based solely on your personal experiences but that they actually include some critical thinking... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
youllneverwalkalone Posted February 14, 2008 Share Posted February 14, 2008 quote:Originally posted by L.T. several hundred thousands of dollars for a database? I'd love to get in on that business! As for the soccer demographic - you are talking out of your you-know-what... There have been a number of demographic studies done that show the Canadian soccer family is fairly well off compared to the general public and represents a highly desirable consumer target... You want people you respect your opinions? Show that they are not based solely on your personal experiences but that they actually include some critical thinking... Don't attack me pal. I didn't claim to be an expert in marketing or demographics. I'm sharing some experiences with the board based on my personal experience. I'm not lookinhg for respect or recognition. Maybe you've already volunteered to make that database in Access. Good luck with that. But okay, I'll bite, send us a link to one of these studies. I'd love to see it. And by the way, I do respect that you've been a member of the V's for sometime and I do respect your opinions on youth soccer based on that association, but you have a clear agenda that extends well beyond the parameters of supporting the MNT. As such, it looks extremely suspicious when you disrespect someone for playing devil's advocate and extending the debate on this CSF initiative. But that's the way you role isn't it? You are the guy who said we don't have any competitive footballers in Canada. That's a great attitude for a Canadian supporter to have. Well done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L.T. Posted February 14, 2008 Share Posted February 14, 2008 "You are the guy who said we don't have any competitive footballers in Canada." Don't recall ever saying that... It is my opinion that the quality we do have is more a function of the skill and dedication of those individual players rather than them being products of a strong development system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
youllneverwalkalone Posted February 14, 2008 Share Posted February 14, 2008 Just a point on the database regarding cost. It's not just a matter of collecting and storing data. In the example I was dealing with recently, the costs were also associated with integration issues with the accounting system which, in this case, would also be the likely outcome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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