youllneverwalkalone Posted February 11, 2008 Share Posted February 11, 2008 quote:Originally posted by Eric This section is for the Men's National Team. Do the hows and whats and whys of player registration mean a thing to whether or not we qualify for the World Cup? You seam very concern about the MNT and the WCQ, you're one of those people that wants to cover the sun with a finger disregarding the future MNTs. For starters the CSA hire the wrong coach (good coach but not the one we need) to lead us to a WCQ and they will continue to do so because there is not consequences to their decisions and that has to end asap. You to build from the bottom up NOT the other way around, the players registration moneys have alot to do with everything because is a big part in the financing of a our national program. My point is that funding the top level structure from the grassroots, no matter how efficient, is a non-starter because the graassroots is in no way qualified to give us professional leadership. We don't need leadership from the grassroots, what we need is professional leadership to guide the grassroots organizations towards building a true players development system. Sorry Eric, but you're wrong. The men's national team is for professional footballers. Full stop. Professional footballers are developed by professional clubs. Full stop. There is absolutely nothing at the current grassroots level which impeads us from producing competitive footballers. The problem is that the grassroots has a say into everything from how are fixtures are marketed to who gets hired as national team manager. We need separation of church and state. As soon as possible. You all can dream about a day when Canada produces as many elite 13 year olds as Brasil. I hope you get us there. But my sneaking suuspicion is that it's the professional infrastructure in Brasil which takes those 13 year olds and turns them into elite footballers. I know it's not waxing and waning and wanking done by this 13-15 member board about administration fees. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gian-Luca Posted February 11, 2008 Share Posted February 11, 2008 quote:Originally posted by Free kick I think my concern would be moreso with Peter Mallett and a perceived conflict of interest. He wrote a very pro-Jono/anti-CSA article which is fine (even though I disagree with the former part) but IMO it doesn't make him look good or very impartial to be writing articles publicly advocating the destruction of the CSA if secretly part of an organization seeking to replace that This is not to suggest that Mallett can't be involved in any such organization, just that I think it would have made him look better had he declared his involvement up front, particularly when using Jono's decision as a weapon to destroy the CSA with. Now this is something I will be bearing in mind the next time I read one of his articles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
youllneverwalkalone Posted February 11, 2008 Share Posted February 11, 2008 quote:Originally posted by VPjr I know where you are coming from. When I first got involved in the "Sack the CSA" thing, I thought it was so simple. the logic was: - the CSA is the reason why our national team has issues being successful. - Get rid of them, replace them with something better and all our national team problems are solved. However, as i've become more involved, I realize that the issues run FAR deeper. I've come to realize that the solution to the MNT problem is not a quick fix. It's a long term issue. We might qualify for WC2010 but then what? We still have all the same problems we have now. It is my belief that a healthy grassroots, guided by unified standards established by the national association, will give us a better shot at long term success at all levels than the mess we have right now. It is easy to blame "soccer moms" for the reasons why the MNT doesn't have sufficient funding but that is overly simplistic. The grassroots are at odds with all levels of soccer administration i this country because they feel that they are being treated as nothing more than an ATM machine for the districts, provinces and the CSA. You may prefer quicker fixes but the cancer in Canadian soccer runs deep. Take the time to talk to people at the grassroots level and you will find that there is not the overwhelming hatred for elite programs as you might thing. I've spoken to numerous coaches and administrators. They support our national teams and they hope like hell that even 1 of their best players would ever suit up for Canada. What they don't like is being conned out of money that goes towards programs that deliver virtually no value back into the grassroots system. If you are going to take registration fees from the clubs, you need to be prepared to give something back. While we don't offer details as to what kind of reciprocity would exist, it's a fundamental belief of the CSF that clubs can not be marginalized. An internet forum is not the ideal venue for these types of debates. Feel free to email me and I'll give you my cell #. We can chat on the phone if you wish. Just for the record. I agree 100% that youth players and their families shouldn't have to subsidize the national team. I've said this several times. It's a huge impediment. And I'm not criticising anyone at the grassroots level. My argument is exactly that they shouldn't fund the national team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paddy Posted February 11, 2008 Share Posted February 11, 2008 quote:Originally posted by Eric "This section is for the Men's National Team. Do the hows and whats and whys of player registration mean a thing to whether or not we qualify for the World Cup?" You seam very concern about the MNT and the WCQ, you're one of those people that wants to cover the sun with a finger disregarding the future MNTs. For starters the CSA hire the wrong coach (good coach but not the one we need) to lead us to a WCQ and they will continue to do so because there is not consequences to their decisions and that has to end asap. You to build from the bottom up NOT the other way around, the players registration moneys have alot to do with everything because is a big part in the financing of a our national program. "My point is that funding the top level structure from the grassroots, no matter how efficient, is a non-starter because the graassroots is in no way qualified to give us professional leadership." We don't need leadership from the grassroots, what we need is professional leadership to guide the grassroots organizations towards building a true players development system. PS. I forgot the quote marks [:I] There are many people on this board who feel that if we qualify for the WC that everything else will magically fall into place. Sadly, it won't. It we do qualify, the CSA will take credit and further entrench. The reality is that we have a current crop of above average Canadian players and it may be a long time before we see this level again if the status quo of CSA is maintained (there will be more Jono’s, not less). I think our not qualifying and the dismantling of the CSA (as a result of yet another failure) will do more to help out future generations of Canadian teams than qualification and another 20+ years of the CSA. I am not too worried about us qualifying as I do not think the preparation will be there again, and as a friend put it, “We will be pulling out our calculators after only a few games to work out our chances of qualifying.” Same thing happened last time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aussoccerfan Posted February 11, 2008 Share Posted February 11, 2008 In Atlantic Canada, Elite soccer seems to be in fantastic shape, especially at the youth levels. Players are being developed and there are some who may become very big names. Senior soccer seems to be in great shape in Nova Scotia & Eastern Newfoundland and it’s growing in New Brunswick, & Prince Edward Island. Recreational soccer, especially at the youth levels is where there are many problems. Many coaches seem undertrained, and there are no recreational leagues for some age groups in some areas. The elite levels seem to get almost all the field times and coaches. All the winter leagues seem to only be for the elite levels too, despite the fact that there's a growing number of indoor facilities. What would the CSF do about stuff like this ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilverSamurai Posted February 11, 2008 Share Posted February 11, 2008 I hope something comes of this. While I think the youth/grassroots and national teams should be handled separately, how are you going to sway the sponsors (such as Adidas) to fund the CSF and leave the CSA behind? While I don't expect an answer such as that on a public forum, the money to fund the CMNT has to come from somewhere. Maybe you could get the guy that wanted buy MLSE to sponsor this or something. I hope this leads to something positive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JB_Tito Posted February 11, 2008 Share Posted February 11, 2008 Ben Knight blog The revolution began with thousands of black “Sack the CSA” t-shirts at the Canada-Costa Rica game at BMO Field in Toronto. That led directly to a hastily called summit meeting of fans, coaches, media, players and soccer officials in a badly painted banquet hall in Downsview late last October. And now, the first real shot is in the air. Ladies and gentlemen, I give you – the Canadian Soccer Federation. Right now, it’s a small group of soccer types who are fed-up to the teeth with the bungling bureaucracy of the Canadian Soccer Association. They are certainly not in a position to take power. But they are bursting with ideas and energy, and have deep connections among fans, media and annoyed, ticked-off soccer officials throughout the land. A new voice in the debate, if you will – one with a lot to say. Read more: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20080211.WBsoccerblog20080211172922/WBStory/WBsoccerblog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trillium Posted February 12, 2008 Share Posted February 12, 2008 quote:Originally posted by youllneverwalkalone What's with the National Registry? Is that to keep track of talented pplayers abroad with Canadian roots? Or is it where the soccer mums pay their fee fund this whole thing, thereby giving them a say in whether or not we hire Rene Simoes. The purpose of a national registration system is to eliminate provincial duplication and to ensure that soccer operates as one single entity nationwide. Given one system of registration you can begin to align the structure of the game ... from player to club, to National level. One system, on set of rules for one country ( BC included ). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trillium Posted February 12, 2008 Share Posted February 12, 2008 quote:Originally posted by SilverSamurai I hope something comes of this. While I think the youth/grassroots and national teams should be handled separately, how are you going to sway the sponsors (such as Adidas) to fund the CSF and leave the CSA behind? While I don't expect an answer such as that on a public forum, the money to fund the CMNT has to come from somewhere. Maybe you could get the guy that wanted buy MLSE to sponsor this or something. I hope this leads to something positive. Funding for soccer in this country, just as funding for all other sports will continue to come from fees paid by familys for thier childrens envolvment. No Nike or anyone else is going to drop the dollars in that it takes to run a MNT on the level many Voyageurs dream for. So to fix the problems of soccer in this country requires a new structure ..the proposals are a good start then need fleshing out by people who have experince at the club and district levels and who realize the current CSA is badly structured and wont ever fix itself unless its forced too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ag futbol Posted February 12, 2008 Share Posted February 12, 2008 quote:Originally posted by Trillium Funding for soccer in this country, just as funding for all other sports will continue to come from fees paid by familys for thier childrens envolvment. No Nike or anyone else is going to drop the dollars in that it takes to run a MNT on the level many Voyageurs dream for. The vision of the MNT being “the thing that takes money from minor soccer” is frankly disgusting, and CSA esque by nature. Look globally at where people are getting their funds from, it’s not little Johnny’s U-8 team. The national team is something that can be self-sustaining, if run properly. At the very least it shouldn't have to get reg fees from players. Regarding the proposal: I like the idea of a new federation and the type of reforms you are talking about in your document, in order to sell your vision to amateur clubs it’s going to boil down to: how are you going to save them money or give them greater benefits? The simple answer would be to eliminate the taxes on youth players over time. Sounds like you think this will be possible with administrative savings through cutting various levels. The actions you are talking about taking are good, but for someone who can’t connect the dots, you might need to flesh it out a bit more. Tell the sandbox types how it’s going to positively affect the way they operate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bjarne Posted February 12, 2008 Share Posted February 12, 2008 Vpjr, I give you major props for taking some action. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayWay Posted February 12, 2008 Share Posted February 12, 2008 Why does the CSF hate Eastern Canada? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CanadianSwede Posted February 12, 2008 Share Posted February 12, 2008 I want soccer to be rebuilt in Canada as much as the next guy but I was thinking that it may not be the wisest thing to bring into action a plan that will bring the current CSA down. One must remember we are close to qualifying. Imagine if this team didn't have the financial ability to travel to qualifiers because a shut down Association. This is like many have said a great chance for us to qualify..should we not wait until after qualifying? Just a worry from a dedicated fan looking for reassurance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aussoccerfan Posted February 12, 2008 Share Posted February 12, 2008 quote:Originally posted by JayWay Why does the CSF hate Eastern Canada? What are you talking about ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen LaRose Posted February 12, 2008 Share Posted February 12, 2008 quote:Originally posted by CanadianSwede I want soccer to be rebuilt in Canada as much as the next guy but I was thinking that it may not be the wisest thing to bring into action a plan that will bring the current CSA down. One must remember we are close to qualifying. Imagine if this team didn't have the financial ability to travel to qualifiers because a shut down Association. This is like many have said a great chance for us to qualify..should we not wait until after qualifying? Just a worry from a dedicated fan looking for reassurance. Well, with all due respect, what makes you so sure Canada has a sho at qualifying? How many spaces are open for CONCACAF? Three? U.S. and Mexico are two .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CanadianSwede Posted February 12, 2008 Share Posted February 12, 2008 This is the best team we've had for YEARS! I believe that we have an excellent shot of qualifying even upsetting a few teams on the way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen LaRose Posted February 12, 2008 Share Posted February 12, 2008 quote:Originally posted by CanadianSwede This is the best team we've had for YEARS! I believe that we have an excellent shot of qualifying even upsetting a few teams on the way. The talent may be there, but after seeing Dale Mitchel's coaching ability at the U20s I have no faith that this team will make it to South Africa. None at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VPjr Posted February 12, 2008 Share Posted February 12, 2008 quote:Originally posted by aussoccerfan In Atlantic Canada, Elite soccer seems to be in fantastic shape, especially at the youth levels. Players are being developed and there are some who may become very big names. Senior soccer seems to be in great shape in Nova Scotia & Eastern Newfoundland and it’s growing in New Brunswick, & Prince Edward Island. Recreational soccer, especially at the youth levels is where there are many problems. Many coaches seem undertrained, and there are no recreational leagues for some age groups in some areas. The elite levels seem to get almost all the field times and coaches. All the winter leagues seem to only be for the elite levels too, despite the fact that there's a growing number of indoor facilities. What would the CSF do about stuff like this ? What you are describing appears to be pretty commonplace across the country. Re: Coaching - it is our belief that our coaching education programs are sadly lacking and most house league coaches have almost no soccer coaching training at all. We propose creating the position of Director of Coaching and Player Development who reports to the TD. We have discussed the need for national coaching education standards and the need to incorporate best practices from around the world, including joining forces with NSCAA to bring our coaching licensing programs up to speed in a relatively short period of time with the Americans at the very least. With some luck and hard work, at some point in the future, a Canadian coaching license might actually be worth something outside of Canada. To touch on your issue with undertrained rec coaches, I just got my Ontario community coaching license a few weeks ago. In a class of nearly 30 people, I was the only house league coach. In my opinion, the stuff we were being taught (especially the practical elements of the course) should be what rec coaches are expected to know rather than the minimum qualifications for coaching rep soccer. It was really quite basic. It seems like people have come to totally devalue rec soccer for kids, which is likely why they start streaming the better kids (or more physically gifted) into rep programs at EIGHT years old and start weeding out the less talented. It's no wonder kids are leaving soccer at 10 years old at many clubs. We have also proposed setting national standards for clubs. We make mention of Charter Clubs and Recreational Clubs. We believe that there needs to be a more clear distinction. Not every club should be trying to be all things to all people. We need strong Rec clubs that can service the needs of parents and kids that seek only to play soccer for fun, on decent pitches and with decently qualified coaches. Having kids continously involved in soccer from an early age into their teens, even just at the rec level, will inevitably result in more lifelong soccer fans. Not everyone has to be a rep player to be valuable. Recreational soccer is where it all starts and if done well, nurtures a love for the game that doesn't die. The lack of access to fields is something that is hard for us to comment on. Clearly, more needs to be done to make more fields available, especially during indoor seasons but indoor rental time is so expensive that it is usually only the Rep Youth parents and the Senior Rec and Senior compeitive players that are willing to pay the extra fees involved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smeghead Posted February 12, 2008 Share Posted February 12, 2008 Great start. I support this 100%...I am happy you guys are getting the ball rolling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L.T. Posted February 12, 2008 Share Posted February 12, 2008 quote:Originally posted by youllneverwalkalone There is absolutely nothing at the current grassroots level which impeads us from producing competitive footballers. So why aren't we producing any??? I'm not surprised to see that opinion on this board. It seems as though most Voyaguers believe that our teenage talent is turning out just fine and it is only the mismanagement of the CSA that turns them into pumpkins when they put on a National team sweater. That is a very naive and shortsighted view. When the French realized their national team was in shambles they restructured their organization from top to bottom. If you think there this is a quick fix that can be implemented at the top of this pyramid, then you are going to be disappointed... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VPjr Posted February 12, 2008 Share Posted February 12, 2008 quote:Originally posted by SilverSamurai I hope something comes of this. While I think the youth/grassroots and national teams should be handled separately, how are you going to sway the sponsors (such as Adidas) to fund the CSF and leave the CSA behind? While I don't expect an answer such as that on a public forum, the money to fund the CMNT has to come from somewhere. Maybe you could get the guy that wanted buy MLSE to sponsor this or something. I hope this leads to something positive. I would suggest to you that some of the current sponsors are not happy with the current state of affairs at the CSA. No private company likes to be associated with an organization that is more noted for failures than successes. If the CSA could manage more success on the field and less blunders off the field and actually know how to treat its sponsors properly, recruiting more sponsors (and thereby reducing the burden on the membership) might be more likely. the funding for a national soccer organization is a touchy subject. No one wants the grassroots to fund the FA (only 4 or 5 countries currently rely on registration taxes to fund their FA's) but it is likely a necessary evil, at least for a period of time. The goal of the CSF proposal is to cut out alot of layers of unnecessary fat. Bill Ault wrote an excellent article a year or so ago that dealt with how much waste their is in the system (check out the Canadakicks website to read it). Maybe you can't eliminate registration taxes overnight but instead of taking $40+ per head for a rep player, maybe you can drop the levy to $30 and then less and less as you introduce more efficiencies and eliminate more redundant entities. I know I'm speaking in generalities. We can't speak in specifics obviously at this point. But we know there are efficiencies to be had that will keep money with the clubs but still result in a larger budget for the national association than currently is the case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VPjr Posted February 12, 2008 Share Posted February 12, 2008 quote:Originally posted by ag futbol The actions you are talking about taking are good, but for someone who can’t connect the dots, you might need to flesh it out a bit more. Tell the sandbox types how it’s going to positively affect the way they operate. This document is our first salvo. It is intended to give you a taste of our vision. We were confident that people would be supportive but you never know. There is alot of fleshing out to do. We are working on a supplementary document that will put more meat on the bones of this first document. Of course, that won't be the final word either. More input will be gathered and changes will be made. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VPjr Posted February 12, 2008 Share Posted February 12, 2008 quote:Originally posted by JayWay Why does the CSF hate Eastern Canada? Huh??? are you being sarcastic? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CanadianSwede Posted February 12, 2008 Share Posted February 12, 2008 quote:Originally posted by Stephen LaRose The talent may be there, but after seeing Dale Mitchel's coaching ability at the U20s I have no faith that this team will make it to South Africa. None at all. Thats a pity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loud Mouth Soup Posted February 12, 2008 Share Posted February 12, 2008 quote:Originally posted by JayWay Why does the CSF hate Eastern Canada? You smell of cod. /someone had to say it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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