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Is the REVOLUTION ON? they call it CSF


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quote:Originally posted by jpg75

Get your facts straight ya ignorant putz. Most of the non-white players on the French NT were born and raised in France and were taught to play the way they do by the French system. It's not like the FFF is hopping on their pirate ship and kidnapping fully grown men who are already full-fledged professionals. :(

Part of French football's revolution in the early-90s was a decision by those at the top to do more to integrate the growing, minority segments of the French population into the mainstream football establishment. Thus, the largely white France teams of the past (the odd Jean Tigana, excepted) were replaced by new France teams featuring players like Zidane, Viera, Thuram, Desailly, and Henry.

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"The talent may be there, but after seeing Dale Mitchel's coaching ability at the U20s I have no faith that this team will make it to South Africa. None at all."

I disagree. The U20 was disappointing and not even getting one goal was rather embarrassing but you can't lay that all at the coaches feet. They are still a group of young players who haven't played together much.

I'll reserve my opinion on Dale Mitchel's coaching ability until we see the results of our WCQ games. Friendlies and warmups don't count in my view because those are opportunities to try different player combinations and strategies.

As for the CSF it is good to see something being done. Look at it this way. Even if it never amounts to anything it will have done more to draw attention to the issues than just us preaching to the converted on the message boards! Getting people outside aware of the problems at the CSA is a big step in the right direction.

Do I think the CSF will succeed. I hope so but I will be the first to admit it is going to be an uphill struggle. Everest type of uphill.

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quote:Originally posted by youllneverwalkalone

There is absolutely nothing at the current grassroots level which impeads us from producing competitive footballers.

With a due respect, you cannot be serious. If we agree that the grassroots level involves young athletes aged 5 - 10, how is it that mom and dad are equipped to train these prospective players?

It is critical that young athletes develop physical literacy and a love for the game. Instead, we have well-intentioned but ill-equipped parents that generally have no background in the sport lining kids up 10 deep in ridiculous looking drills that have no resemblance to soccer. You have these parents - coaches and spectators alike - yelling at kids to KICK IT! PASS IT! And then following it up with BALL HOG every time a kid dribbles the freaking ball.

Parents get all hopped up with the idea of winning and losing when it is exactly that attitude that stifles development.

Please, please don't tell me we have a grassroots model that works for the intelligent development of our players. Hell, we had a CSA Staff Coach whose job description included Grassroots Development that had spent ZERO time in his home-city working with this age-group. The CSA thought so much of the grassroots group that it eliminated this role.

I would suggest that there are more impediments in grassroots development than you could ever imagine.

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quote:Originally posted by youllneverwalkalone

So don't tell me that we can take some French policy document and apply it to Canada. It's completely apples and oranges. We will never have their professional infrastructure and that's what gets the results.

Threats and insults aside, you are arguing something that was never put forward.

I mentioned the French only in the context that they realized that simply concentrating on the Senior National team was not going to improve their results, they needed to look at the bigger picture...

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quote:Originally posted by L.T.

Threats and insults aside, you are arguing something that was never put forward.

I mentioned the French only in the context that they realized that simply concentrating on the Senior National team was not going to improve their results, they needed to look at the bigger picture...

I don't disagree with the sentiment. My position though is that elite youth development, especially in France, is a matter for the professional clubs. I realize it's frustrating to only have three professional clubs and you have every right to make a professional academy as does Monsieur Glassman and his shooting stars. And please, use all the French techniques you can. But at the end of the day, we do produce competitive footballers. You have shown a huge amount of disrespect in your earlier comments for guys who are definitely talented enough to take the 3rd spot ion CONCACAF. Given that Hutch, DDR, Stalteri, Pozniak, etc came out of the most dysfunctional professional club perhaps in the history of the world, I have a lot of hope for Canada as a result of the players who come out of the GTA. Once TFC get their academy going, Canada will start to prosper.

I know a bunch of guys from the GTA involved in youth soccer are frustrated by the CSA. I totally understand and don't blame you a bit. However, the focus of this board is the MNT. Of all the failings of the CSA, producing quality players is not anywhere near the top of the list for most Voyageurs. This thread is evidence that the Voyageurs are more and more getting hijacked by people whose first passion is not the MNT. I'm not saying these people are wrong in what they believe, but it is the wrong forum. Grizzly's comments on the CSF were spot on, so I won't try to repeat them.

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quote:Originally posted by Grizzly

I think it is shocking and disgraceful to put together a reform proposal of the CSA that doesn't even mention the national teams anywhere other than in the structural chart. The CSA has consistently underestimated the importance of the national teams especially the MNT resulting in underfunding. Yet this proposal seems intent on replacing them with an organization that values the national teams even less. And those that don't think us qualifying for the World Cup would bring major change to soccer in Canada are wrong. Qualification would be huge and would create a boom in Canadian soccer with many of our professional players becoming household names and kids everywhere realizing that soccer like hockey can have a professional future and dreaming of playing for Canada in the World Cup. We only have to look at the US to see how much impact their national team success had on the sport in their country.

I think the CSA needs massive changes in how it is run and structured. The changes proposed in this document don't seem to me to be the ones needed. Additionally the structure can be optimized as much as possible but it doesn't matter if the people running it are not good. I find it hard to take serious any proposal with people like Bob Iarusci and Peter Mallett involved. They are both soccer fans but I am not sure either is really a Canadian soccer fan nor am I convinced of the competency/organizational abilities/leadership skills of either. I have not been very impressed with Dominic Maestracci and Victor Montagliani so far but I am also not in favour of replacing them with the Peter and Bob show. At least I have yet to hear Dominic and Victor praise players for turning their back on their country and playing for another nation.

I am also very curious as to how the CSF proposes to become the national body. Are they going to be recruiting clubs and players to join them? Is this the start of some war in which CSF supporting soccer clubs will be pitted against CSA soccer clubs? Is this really what Canadian soccer needs?

I am all for protesting against the CSA and trying to get them to move toward extensive reform including putting better people on the Board of Directors and reforming the structure of the organization. However, too many people want change for changes sake without examining what the change is. Proposals to massively change how soccer is run have to be examined very carefully as well as the backgrounds of the people proposing them. The idea is not just to replace/reform the CSA but to replace/reform it with something better. This proposal so far does not meet those criteria in my eyes. Indeed as hard as it may seem to believe, soccer in this country could be even run worse than it currently is. I am hearing a lot of proposals about replacing the CSA that remind me of the revolutions against the brutal, undemocratic monarchic governments that replaced them with even more brutal and undemocratic communist regimes. The CSA needs reform but that reform must improve the organization and must be well and very carefully thought out and carried out by competent people.

Here here!! I second this. Bob Iarusci has had a distinguished career as player and contributed greatly to soccer in Canada as player. the fans have a lot to be thankful.

But as spokesman for the game? I have some serious doubts about the allegiance of a person who applauds players for opting not to represent canada.

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quote:Originally posted by fishman

With a due respect, you cannot be serious. If we agree that the grassroots level involves young athletes aged 5 - 10, how is it that mom and dad are equipped to train these prospective players?

It is critical that young athletes develop physical literacy and a love for the game. Instead, we have well-intentioned but ill-equipped parents that generally have no background in the sport lining kids up 10 deep in ridiculous looking drills that have no resemblance to soccer. You have these parents - coaches and spectators alike - yelling at kids to KICK IT! PASS IT! And then following it up with BALL HOG every time a kid dribbles the freaking ball.

Parents get all hopped up with the idea of winning and losing when it is exactly that attitude that stifles development.

Please, please don't tell me we have a grassroots model that works for the intelligent development of our players. Hell, we had a CSA Staff Coach whose job description included Grassroots Development that had spent ZERO time in his home-city working with this age-group. The CSA thought so much of the grassroots group that it eliminated this role.

I would suggest that there are more impediments in grassroots development than you could ever imagine.

These kids don't need training. They need to be given a ball and to run around and have fun. Passing is as important as dribbling. Isn't it? Parents, assuming they're good ones, should be perfectly equipped to create a positive environment. The best thing the CSA can do for these kids is to keep their fees low so everyone can participate. Exactly why the Association shouldn't subsidize or administer the MNT.

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quote:Originally posted by youllneverwalkalone

Evra (Senegal), Viera (Senegal), Makelele (Congo), Boumsong (Cameroon), Desailly (Ghana). Then there's the Caribbean: Thuram (Guadeloupe) and Maluoda (Guiana).

Evra moved to France when he was 3. Viera when he was 7. Makelele was 4. Boumsong was a bit older, but he sucks so bad i can't count him as a French NTer. Desailly was adopted by a French couple (no doubt agents of the FFF) at the age of 4.

Thuram and Malouda were older when they immigrated or joined the system. Malouda only started playing organized ball as a teen, so you have a point here.

quote:

For the record, I fully agree that it is the French infrastructure that made these guys into great players. However, we need to make a distinction between amateur infrastructure and professional infrastructure. Henry, Zidane, Gallas all grew up in poverty and played the game as children with little to no organization until they entered the professional system. France is "blessed" with African immigrants living in subhuman poverty where there is nothing to do other than to play football (or join gangs). It's a silver lining in an otherwise utterly bleak life. So don't tell me that we can take some French policy document and apply it to Canada. It's completely apples and oranges. We will never have their professional infrastructure and that's what gets the results.

Yes France has some serious social problems, i won't absolve them of that. There is systemic racism - mostly towards Arabs (Algerians in particular) - which leads to these economic issues.

As for Henry, he was one of the first grads of Clairefontaine. He had signed with Monaco as a 13 yr old and they agreed to assign him there. You could say he's the poster boy for the FFF's model of development.

quote:

See post above. Apologize for the name calling or you will regret it.

I don't respond kindly to threats.

Besides, you called me a p*ssy not too long ago in another thread. You don't hear me crying about it, do you?

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J-P. Sorry, I forgot I called you a twat. Which you are, because you're taking shots at people based on supposed factual statements that are false and then retracing your steps to somehow minimize that false content. I clearly named seven often capped French internationals who were not born in France. You stated "most" non-white French internationals were born in France. This is competely incorrect.

I realize the French have a great professional infrastructure. No one would dispute this. It's just not applicable to Canada. If Wales were doing something successful, then I would take notice because I could see the parallel.

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quote:Originally posted by youllneverwalkalone

With all due respect, I disagree completely that the amateur infrastructure has no affect. Stating that many of these top players came through the ghetto, doesn’t really say whether the league system is effective either way, it’s just an alternative channel. If you look at the history the actual amateur leagues have of producing talent, it’s quite good.

Having lived in France for a while and being a part of soccer here at competitive youth level and there at a supposedly non-competitive level I’ll tell you about my experience. The club(s) I played for here were on average contenders to move on to the nationals in a good year. In France, what I was exposed to was literally a 15th division amateur youth side.

The training resources, level of play, and coaching of this very low division team blew the crap out of what the clubs in Canada had to offer. They would have easily dominated the first and second division teams I played for at home (IMO). To make the disparity even worse, I’ll point out that this team was generally regarded as a poor club without resources (even for its level) and had produced very few pro players in its history in comparison to other amateur clubs.

And what did it cost to take part in this structure in France? 70 euros for an entire year of training, with far more benefits and free stuff than you’ll ever received playing in Canada. Of course they have the French government to thank for subsidizing the cost.

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quote:Originally posted by youllneverwalkalone

With all due respect, I disagree completely that the amateur infrastructure has no affect. Stating that many of these top players came through the ghetto, doesn’t really say whether the league system is effective either way, it’s just an alternative channel. If you look at the history the actual amateur leagues have of producing talent, it’s quite good.

Having lived in France for a while and being a part of soccer here at competitive youth level and there at a supposedly non-competitive level I’ll tell you about my experience. The club(s) I played for here were on average contenders to move on to the nationals in a good year. In France, what I was exposed to was literally a 15th division amateur youth side.

The training resources, level of play, and coaching of this very low division team blew the crap out of what the clubs in Canada had to offer. They would have easily dominated the first and second division teams I played for at home (IMO). To make the disparity even worse, I’ll point out that this team was generally regarded as a poor club without resources (even for its level) and had produced very few pro players in its history in comparison to other amateur clubs.

And what did it cost to take part in this structure in France? 70 euros for an entire year of training, with far more benefits and free stuff than you’ll ever received playing in Canada. Of course they have the French government to thank for subsidizing the cost.

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I think the current reality is somewhere between the pessimism of some and the optimism of others.

Could youth soccer be better served - especially coaching-wise? yes.

Are we still graduating some talented kids despite everything? yes.

Did the Lynx actually provide an avenue for some talented players? yes. (holy ****!)

As Eddie Edgar mentioned in that article last year, we're doing a good job with the youngsters under 12(which aids YNWAs' point). What we need now is to fill the void from 12 on up. The longer our young measure up in comparison to the foreign elite, the better off we'll be. Then the transition to the pros will be even easier...

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I think the current reality is somewhere between the pessimism of some and the optimism of others.

Could youth soccer be better served - especially coaching-wise? yes.

Are we still graduating some talented kids despite everything? yes.

Did the Lynx actually provide an avenue for some talented players? yes. (holy ****!)

As Eddie Edgar mentioned in that article last year, we're doing a good job with the youngsters under 12(which aids YNWAs' point). What we need now is to fill the void from 12 on up. The longer our young measure up in comparison to the foreign elite, the better off we'll be. Then the transition to the pros will be even easier...

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So that's why we need the CSF then? To get the governemt to build us a great training system for 5-10 year olds that will cost 70 dollars per head. That sounds easy enough. Good, problem solved.

Whilst you guys are at it, is there anyway you might be able to get the CSF to get us a few friendlies so that we might be ready for WCQ? Or should we just wait till the class of 2026 matures?

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If you don’t think the NT is emphasized enough within the CFA document, give some ideas for improvement. He certainly left it open

It’s the same **** as the black t-shirt protest. We’ve got a slim majority of people who are actually showing leadership and about 100 arm chair QB’s telling everyone how wrong everything is.

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quote:Originally posted by youllneverwalkalone

J-P. Sorry, I forgot I called you a twat. Which you are, because you're taking shots at people based on supposed factual statements that are false and then retracing your steps to somehow minimize that false content. I clearly named seven often capped French internationals who were not born in France. You stated "most" non-white French internationals were born in France. This is competely incorrect.

I realize the French have a great professional infrastructure. No one would dispute this. It's just not applicable to Canada. If Wales were doing something successful, then I would take notice because I could see the parallel.

Actually, if we're going to get technical, "most" (ie. over 50%) of the non-whites for Les Bleus were born in France. This list includes:

Zidane, Gallas, Cisse, Djourkaeff, Lama, Loko, Lizarazu, Diomede, Boghossian, Anelka, Wiltord, Saha, Silvestre (but he sucks), Dacourt, Govou, Abidal, Dhorasoo (sucks), Diarra, Benzema, Ben Arfa...

But yeah, i should have said "born and/or raised in France" to avoid any confusion whatsoever between what France has done and what others have been doing.

While we're at it, why don't we revisit your venomous claims that France are stealing the best footballers from Africa? Maybe a little over the top don't ya think? Just like your name calling and tough guy act...

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quote:Originally posted by youllneverwalkalone

So that's why we need the CSF then? To get the governemt to build us a great training system for 5-10 year olds that will cost 70 dollars per head. That sounds easy enough. Good, problem solved.

Whilst you guys are at it, is there anyway you might be able to get the CSF to get us a few friendlies so that we might be ready for WCQ? Or should we just wait till the class of 2026 matures?

Clearly you are unfamiliar with the concept of a lobby group.
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quote:Originally posted by Grizzly

I think it is shocking and disgraceful to put together a reform proposal of the CSA that doesn't even mention the national teams anywhere other than in the structural chart. The CSA has consistently underestimated the importance of the national teams especially the MNT resulting in underfunding. Yet this proposal seems intent on replacing them with an organization that values the national teams even less. And those that don't think us qualifying for the World Cup would bring major change to soccer in Canada are wrong. Qualification would be huge and would create a boom in Canadian soccer with many of our professional players becoming household names and kids everywhere realizing that soccer like hockey can have a professional future and dreaming of playing for Canada in the World Cup. We only have to look at the US to see how much impact their national team success had on the sport in their country.

I think the CSA needs massive changes in how it is run and structured. The changes proposed in this document don't seem to me to be the ones needed. Additionally the structure can be optimized as much as possible but it doesn't matter if the people running it are not good. I find it hard to take serious any proposal with people like Bob Iarusci and Peter Mallett involved. They are both soccer fans but I am not sure either is really a Canadian soccer fan nor am I convinced of the competency/organizational abilities/leadership skills of either. I have not been very impressed with Dominic Maestracci and Victor Montagliani so far but I am also not in favour of replacing them with the Peter and Bob show. At least I have yet to hear Dominic and Victor praise players for turning their back on their country and playing for another nation.

I am also very curious as to how the CSF proposes to become the national body. Are they going to be recruiting clubs and players to join them? Is this the start of some war in which CSF supporting soccer clubs will be pitted against CSA soccer clubs? Is this really what Canadian soccer needs?

I am all for protesting against the CSA and trying to get them to move toward extensive reform including putting better people on the Board of Directors and reforming the structure of the organization. However, too many people want change for changes sake without examining what the change is. Proposals to massively change how soccer is run have to be examined very carefully as well as the backgrounds of the people proposing them. The idea is not just to replace/reform the CSA but to replace/reform it with something better. This proposal so far does not meet those criteria in my eyes. Indeed as hard as it may seem to believe, soccer in this country could be even run worse than it currently is. I am hearing a lot of proposals about replacing the CSA that remind me of the revolutions against the brutal, undemocratic monarchic governments that replaced them with even more brutal and undemocratic communist regimes. The CSA needs reform but that reform must improve the organization and must be well and very carefully thought out and carried out by competent people.

Grizz, you definitely provided a lot to chew on.

You are entitled to the opinions you have of some of the people involved in the CSF steering committee. We will agree to disagree. Your impressions of these people from afar could not be more wrong but all you know of them is the articles that have been writted or words spoken on the radio. Email them directly and express your concerns. They will gladly answer your questions.

I think your belief that making the 2010WC will fix many of the things that ails Canadian Soccer is overly simplistic. It would certainly be a good thing for Canadian supporters and the players. It would inject a tremendous amount of short term funding into the CSA coffers. But, once its all said and done, the same fundamental problems that plague the sport at all levels will still exist. The USNT program has definitely benefited from its hosting of the World Cup and its numerous consecutive qualifications for the world cup but they have a more solid infrastructure than exists in Canada. They have far more qualified coaches and a more rigorous coaching education program. They have an established player development pyramid. They have a lot of things going for them that we don't have. The USSF is not a perfect organization by any means but it puts the CSA to shame and not only because it has more money at its disposal.

Grizzly, you are dedicated and passionate fan of our National team programs and I have tremendous respect for that. The people who drafted this document, including me, are equally passionate about our national teams and the players who play on them. But our concern for the sport runs far deeper than simply the problems that are plaguing the national team. We have discussed national team issues at every meeting we've held. We have discussed the kinds of improvements to the program we would love to have happen. The reality though is that we are not currently in a position to list all the goals we would have. At this point, we believe it is better to simply state that the national soccer body for Canada needs fundamental governance and organization reforms so that the proper people can be put in place and be given the authority to accomplish organizational goals and be held accountable if they do not. We don't believe that the CSA is prepared to make those fundamental changes.

We are trying to simply lay out a path to a better future. We don't claim to have all the answers. What we do believe is that if we make the fundamental changes necessary from the top down and at the grassroots, the seeds for long terms success at all levels will be more assured (I won't say its a guarantee because one can never guarantee anything in life)

You ask how the CSF proposes to become the national body....great question. it is our belief that the CSA and provinces are essentially stealing from the membership and delivering little or nothing of value back to them in return for the millions of dollars that are collected each year. $20+ million is collected annually from registration taxes by all levels (CSA, Provinces, districts). What value are they returning? Do we enjoy international success. No. Do we have top notch coaching education programs that are internationally recognized for their quality. NO There are so many other failings, they are too numerous to list.

Trust me on this (if you wish)...if we fix the problems that exist at the grassroots levels and with the governance and administrative structure, the problems with the national team programs will eventually go away.

Please also keep in mind that the document we released yesterday was part 1 of what will be multiple documents that will provide more information on the various positions we have taken. Have some patience with us and hopefully we will be answer more of your questions to your satisfaction.

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quote:Originally posted by jpg75

Actually, if we're going to get technical, "most" (ie. over 50%) of the non-whites for Les Bleus were born in France. This list includes:

Zidane, Gallas, Cisse, Djourkaeff, Lama, Loko, Lizarazu, Diomede, Boghossian, Anelka, Wiltord, Saha, Silvestre (but he sucks), Dacourt, Govou, Abidal, Dhorasoo (sucks), Diarra, Benzema, Ben Arfa...

But yeah, i should have said "born and/or raised in France" to avoid any confusion whatsoever between what France has done and what others have been doing.

While we're at it, why don't we revisit your venomous claims that France are stealing the best footballers from Africa? Maybe a little over the top don't ya think? Just like your name calling and tough guy act...

My name calling? You need to flip back a couple of pages and see where you insulted me based on a quote that, although perhaps inaccurate in terms of when these lads came to France (I didn't realize they were so young) is not misleading on two counts:

1. The great players in France, regardless of origin, are trained at top level PROFESSIONAL academies that a couple of soccer mums can't draw up in powert point;

2. France has raped and pillaged Africa -their society, if not their football, bear clear evidence of this

I apologize for calling you a little French homocidal colonist twat. It was in the heat of the moment and I will not stab you with a bottle if we should meet in Montreal for WCQ. You can ask Voyageurs that have met me and I've only tried that a couple times and I've learned my lesson. There's not enough Voyageurs to be killing them off. Though I suspect that you have nothing to fear regardless as you do seem part of this group that would rather see your six year old get some better training than have the MNT qualify for the World Cup.

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quote:Originally posted by fan

Part of the biggest problem your (CSF) going to have is that not just here on this forum but most Canadian soccer fans have little will or strength to contribute after this shambles and you will incur a lot of the blame, depression and anger that has been created by the CSA and the board. Also the very large hurdle of FIFA approval.

The good news is you are bang on about sponsors not willing to finance or deal with the CSA and they may be keen to support a new group. There are millions of dollars available to be given to a competent professional group that can demonstrate even average return on their dollar.The Canadian soccer supporters who are part of the private interest and wealthy elite are dying to support a new movement and haven't donated a penny to the CSA for decades.

Good Luck!

Fan, thanks for the advice and support.

We fully expect the derision and criticism. We welcome it if it keeps the issue in the public domain and keeps us talking about how to mend this sinking ship. All the feedback we are getting here is being noted and will be considered at our next meeting. Elements might be included in the supplemental document we will release on or before the 28th.

The outpouring of support we have received over the past 24 hours has been overwhelming and it has come from across the country. There are so many people who want to support what we are talking about. We are getting calls from people who have been involved with the CSA as players, coaches, managers, etc... and they are fully supportive of what we are talking about. The system is sick and it's not just the national teams. The whole damn system is sick and needs massive reform.

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quote:Originally posted by Jarrek

Canadian Soccer Federation? Sounds very Star Trekkish ...

Why not give it a real name and have Football in it.

Maybe this organization will wake up the boneheads at the CSA?

We thought about using the word Football in the name but we decided against. As much as I dislike the word soccer it is the common nomenclature used and its best to avoid getting people's back up that we are trying to be "too Euro" or something.

We have enough work ahead of us trying to defend our position rather than try to also defend the chosen name.

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quote:Originally posted by Mpenza

I see one problem. I read the mass mailing that was sent yesterday and one thing bugged me right off the bat. There's a list of names, but no background info on the people who take part in this...

That kinda doesn't help selling the project now does it? Step one would've been to tell us who you are and why you think you are qualified to do a better job than the CSA. It looks more like a petition than a federation...

We will add a brief summary on each person involved in the drafting of the document in the next couple of days to the website we have set up. www.canadiansoccerfederation.ca (it should be up by now).

It was an oversight on our part. We had worked very hard to get this document together and did not really think about the possibility people wanted to know our backgrounds. Silly but true. We will get that rectified shortly.

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