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Is the REVOLUTION ON? they call it CSF


Eric
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Well from what i hear, data mining is a very rapidly growing business. So it doesn't surprise when I hear about the kind of $$$ that is paid for marketing data and databases.

But I have feeling that you guys are off base on this one. I can't imagine ( though I reserve the right to be wrong on this one) that the information that is collected in regards to a registration process for youth soccer would be of any value to a marketer or marketing camapaign. For example, Personal income is very often the most important piece of info that you need for an effect target marketing campaign. Other things might include education and occupation.

I dont know how much people will pay for a list of name and addresses that you could just as easily get from a voters registry? But, I reserve teh right to be wrong.

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quote:Originally posted by L.T.

So why aren't we producing any???

I'm not surprised to see that opinion on this board. It seems as though most Voyaguers believe that our teenage talent is turning out just fine and it is only the mismanagement of the CSA that turns them into pumpkins when they put on a National team sweater.

That is a very naive and shortsighted view. When the French realized their national team was in shambles they restructured their organization from top to bottom. If you think there this is a quick fix that can be implemented at the top of this pyramid, then you are going to be disappointed...

There you go LT. Now where is the link to that study on soccer demographics?

(I also noted the condescending tone toward the Vs board. I didn't realize you had a giant speedmonk brain too! What are the odds there'd be two of you!)

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quote:Originally posted by youllneverwalkalone

I think you might seriously consider offing yourself. I realize it must be very frustrating having to communicate with us yobs at your high *speed* level of intellect. I'm quite surprised though that you haven't become the silent benefactor of Canadian Soccer given the millions you must have made in marketing with that giant brain of yours.

I don't know much about marketing and I doubt very much that the CSF have considered selling data collected by their national registry. Still, I have a couple observations. Bare with me, I'm not up to extremely high level of intellect of Grandmaster Speedmonk which surely surpasses all humans, gods, and demi-gods:

I work with a lot of NPOs who are in the process of contructing databases. Recently I was at a client who built one for approximately 5,000 members. It cost several hundred thousands of dollars. I'm sure there are economies of scale at some point, but this registry looks like an expensive project and, marketing opportunities aside, appears to be the invention of wannabe bureaucrats.

I agree the data on 800,000 families is probably worth something. (Though there are likely fewer than 800,000 families as many families would have at least two kids playing at one time). But my concerns would be two-fold:

First, many people would have a problem with the Organization selling their personal info and would expect some serious cost savings on registration fees in return. This type of return is suspect to me because of the capital costs involved with starting the project.

Second, and things may have changed, but when I was a kid playing soccer in Vancouver all the kids on my team had one thing in common: we had at least one foreign parent (who inevitably is a spendthrift) and we were all too poor to play hockey. This makes my wonder as to the astronomical value that Speedy puts on such data.

Being a current graduate student in computer science I find it shocking it would cost in the hundreds of thousands of dollars to create a database for 5,000 people. A 5,000 person database is extremely small. There must be something else with it, maybe merging legacy systems into a new database.

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The best use of the database isn't necessarily to tell information on any one individual, it's more about the collective. You can take statistics on groups without really affecting anyone’s individual privacy. After collecting information on those 800,000 members, compile statistics on them, take them on your sponsors and say: "how would you like to reach a targeted market of x people with the following characteristics?" Targeted information on the demographic you reach will earn you more money.

The Price of the database on its own is a misleading statistic. It needs to be worked out as a cost / benefit scenario. I wouldn’t be surprised if what you’re talking about ended up costing five times as much, yet was still worth it.

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quote:Originally posted by Pawel

Being a current graduate student in computer science I find it shocking it would cost in the hundreds of thousands of dollars to create a database for 5,000 people. A 5,000 person database is extremely small. There must be something else with it, maybe merging legacy systems into a new database.

There's definitely more going on, and I've just looked up the cost and looks like it was closer to $150k for consulting and implemetation.

I guess the question to you then is what would a database for 800,000 kids cost?

IMHO, it would need to be integrated with the Assocaition/Federation web site so dues could be collected online, which inturn would be intergrated with the accounting system.

And to Free Kick's point (and mine about privacy) what kinds of data could you reasonably be expected to collect? I mean if I were paying my kids fees online, I could imagine being asked to fill out a survey to collect information like income level, but I also know that I would decline. I suspect many others would to. What do you think?

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quote:Originally posted by youllneverwalkalone

I work with a lot of NPOs who are in the process of contructing databases. Recently I was at a client who built one for approximately 5,000 members. It cost several hundred thousands of dollars.

Boy did I ever screw up. I built a 15,000 database and charged only 3000.

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**sigh** you don’t need to have the income level directly to know approximately what it is nor is it the only valid piece of marketing information.

Step 1. Input address

Step 2. Match address to external information about people who live within a certain area (readily available through numerous companies and Canadian Census info).

Done, I already approximately have an income read on you based on your location and also specific information on your lifestyle.

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quote:Originally posted by ag futbol

**sigh** you don’t need to have the income level directly to know approximately what it is nor is it the only valid piece of marketing information.

Step 1. Input address

Step 2. Match address to external information about people who live within a certain area (readily available through numerous companies and Canadian Census info).

Done, I already approximately have an income read on you based on your location and also specific information on your lifestyle.

Okay. No sigh needed. We understand. Three people with massive super brains. This is amazing. But, if people want transparancy, the Association that has to obtain consent to have this information released. None of the giant super brains have explained how much this is worth to the parents who are paying for the consultation and implementation of the registry. How much will their fees go down as a result of the increased frequency of dinner time calls?

Overall, here's why I'm suspicious of these massive super brains to which everything comes so easy. The CSA/Provincial Associations do not have effective governance structures. The whole Linford affair makes this clear. But I don't believe for a second that these people's intelligence is so much inferior to the average super brain poster in this thread. If the Ref can build a database for $3,000 and sell the outputs for Zillions of dollars, wouldn't somebody be doing it?

I'd love to hear Dino's honest answer as to whether data mining had anything to do with the concept of a National Registry?

Could one of the super massive brain Voyageurs put together a budget with some numbers as to how much a National Registry would cost to build and maintain and how much revenue it could generate? This would be really interesting. I'm not being negative, just a little professional skepticism.

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Guest speedmonk42

WHOA!

youllneverwalkalone! I was not attacking you or anyone else on this board. Not my intention at all.

It was badly written frustration at the potential squandered by what is possible, but does not happen.

Sorry if I came off that way!

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quote:Originally posted by speedmonk42

WHOA!

youllneverwalkalone! I was not attacking you or anyone else on this board. Not my intention at all.

It was badly written frustration at the potential squandered by what is possible, but does not happen.

Sorry if I came off that way!

You have to be an optimist at a certain level to even follow Canadian soccer at a distance. Much less post on this board. I don't think anyone is being negative for its own sake. At the same time there's always a great new hope on the horizon. Since I've been here, all we needed to do was fire Pipe. Once that was done things were looking up until the Association submarined Linford (or he submarined himself, the take is up to you). Now all we need to do is sack the CSA completely and replace it with the CSF. My god man, the job is getting bigger by the day! But that's okay, let's dream big. I'm fine with that. But, the devil is in the details, and here we are hashing it out based on the limited knowledge we have. Your point was a good one about selling data, I'm just trying to figure out if it's really feasible enough to get excited about it. Not sure it is.

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Without reading the whole thread, I'm going to make a simple point:

The time has come where change for the sake of change really would be beneficial. Although I agree that we should do our due diligence to ensure that the right people are brought in, it's more important in my mind to get new people in, period.

The CSA has totally lost all confidence, everywhere. Fresh faces with different ideas would at least provide a little hope. I don't buy that we have to tiptoe around the issues because it's a WCQ year. The players will continue to do what they do on the field to the best of their abilities and we will continue to cheer them on. The Hail Mary solution--getting to the WC--seems more of a possibility this time than others and it would certainly help the situation--if only to give us long suffering fans an award for our loyalty. But, without significant change, I see 2010 as a mirage. We'd go, cry when we heard the national anthem played, maybe get a result against Columbia before losing to Argentina and Switzerland, then come home and prepare to wait another 20+ years to get back.

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Guest speedmonk42
quote:Originally posted by youllneverwalkalone

I don't know much about marketing and I doubt very much that the CSF have considered selling data collected by their national registry. Still, I have a couple observations. Bare with me, I'm not up to extremely high level of intellect of Grandmaster Speedmonk which surely surpasses all humans, gods, and demi-gods:

I work with a lot of NPOs who are in the process of contructing databases. Recently I was at a client who built one for approximately 5,000 members. It cost several hundred thousands of dollars. I'm sure there are economies of scale at some point, but this registry looks like an expensive project and, marketing opportunities aside, appears to be the invention of wannabe bureaucrats.

I agree the data on 800,000 families is probably worth something. (Though there are likely fewer than 800,000 families as many families would have at least two kids playing at one time). But my concerns would be two-fold:

First, many people would have a problem with the Organization selling their personal info and would expect some serious cost savings on registration fees in return. This type of return is suspect to me because of the capital costs involved with starting the project.

Second, and things may have changed, but when I was a kid playing soccer in Vancouver all the kids on my team had one thing in common: we had at least one foreign parent (who inevitably is a spendthrift) and we were all too poor to play hockey. This makes my wonder as to the astronomical value that Speedy puts on such data.

Once again my apologies if I came off that way.

The database is incalculably valuable. Both directly and indirectly. It also does not scale linearly in value, together it is worth more. That is if BC keeps it's info and Alberta keeps theirs....ect...

Marketing is only one part of it, and that would be worth an incredible amount of money.

The other part is communication. I really am serious when I say I meet people who run community clubs and do not know we have a national team. That seems impossible, but it is true.

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Guest speedmonk42
quote:Originally posted by Bill Ault

That's the spirit [:o)]

Yeah, it was too harsh.

But I think we were headed in the right direction by focusing on the CSA. But if this helps illustrate the problems then it is a good thing.

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quote:Originally posted by youllneverwalkalone

Okay. No sigh needed. We understand. Three people with massive super brains. This is amazing. But, if people want transparancy, the Association that has to obtain consent to have this information released. None of the giant super brains have explained how much this is worth to the parents who are paying for the consultation and implementation of the registry. How much will their fees go down as a result of the increased frequency of dinner time calls?

It's not that hard. I'd gaurantee that someone has taken your information over the past four months and used it to create a database of customer statistics. They'll never contact you or specifically market to you as an individual. But somewhere in your environment someone has placed a product that they thought people like you might need, based on a broader study of the information taken. How'd they get the right to release your info? In something like a four line blurb in your contract, something which I would be very suprized if didn't exist already in the contracts parents and children are signing.

Sample: USMOB does reserve the right, however, to perform statistical analyses of user behaviour and characteristics, in order to measure interest in and use of the various sections of its sites so as to improve design and navigation and to gather marketing information. Only aggregated data from these analyses, not individual data, will be used for this purpose.

If this isn't creating more resources for the organization it's pointless. That being said is it that hard to imagine the cost savings or extra revenue potential?

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Each Rogers unit has full-time sales positions dedicated to selling customer lists for direct marketing. The media division has about 3 sales people, Cable and Wireless would also their own. The customer numbers for Rogers might be anywhere from 5-10 fold of what the Canadian Soccer registration #'s would be, but the soccer #'s would be nothing to sneeze at. Rogers probably makes multiple millions off these sales. That said, what we're talking about with data mining is likely a different beast altogether, but the point is that there's money to be made.

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Guest speedmonk42

The Registry value is not simply about re-selling the info.

You need to leverage the value of access to the community as a whole, and in particular specific parts because it is large enough to be heavily segmented.

It is fundamental to the CSA operating a new kind of organization.

Marketing is only one part of that. Imagine actually communicating directly with the people in the soccer community based on who they are. New family to the game? Here is a guide for parents, here is some info what soccer is about in Canada. It allows them to provide services to people they currently can't.

You don't just sell the list. You build vehicles through which the marketers can act and sell them access. It is not about phone calls at dinner.

Loyalty Cards?

National soccer magazine with a circulation rivaling anything currently offered (Globe I think is the largest at around 400 000)

First crack at new products....

The list is long and not all of it I would be comfortable with. It could go too far.

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According to a few comments posted here, all the CSA needs to do is to adjust certain areas in it should be back on track in no time. To me personally adjusting and not changing the people who runs the operations of the CSA it would be a huge mistake. The group working to start the CSF going are without a doubt a very passionate and energetic group of real soccer fans with good ideas. Why instead of getting rid of the CSA, don't we try to find a way to vote them out of the board and replace them with the CSF group? isn't this a democratic country, voting is the power of democracy!!! yeah I know......... dream on......

I was also thinking about the excuse of using the disastrous times the CSA is going through with the final performance the MNT could have at WCQ. One thing has nothing to do with the other, one is office work the other is men pride on the field, men who should be only thinking about doing the best for they can for their country, their families, their friends, their coach and ultimately for each other on the field at that moment.

That's what real international soccer pride is, when you wear your country's uniform you don't give a s**t about who's at the office in the FA, you don't give a s**t about what the media says you only think about the people of your country and the possibility of making history, because wearing that uniform might just happen once in your life.

If what's going on at the FAs would be in the heads of national team players at times when they prepare them self for a WCQ or WC, then Italy would have never won a WC and Argentina would have never won the WC in 1978.

Let's not make any more excuses for the MNT, they have what is need it to qualified, they are all professional players and they are all over 20 years old, the only doubtful part in all this process is the coaching staff which to my personal opinion is not qualified to take on this project, they of course have here a chance to prove me and other fans wrong and I hope they do.

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quote:Originally posted by Free kick

You cant argue ( as some have here) that you want the national association should be run like a business and at the same time state that they should be more transparent. Its contradictory and extremely naive to expect that. Private sector organization are not expected and never should be transparant beyond the regulatory requiremenst.

Many of the harahest critics who scream: "transparancy" are not even transparent themselves. In fact they are the least transparent people on this forum. You only need to look at their comments and views and why is it that no one ( or very few) have ever met them in person.

Well said. I'm glad I am not the only one who noticed the irony in people hiding their true identity when they post & yet demanding transparency from others at the same time.

I think the "be run more like a business and yet be more transparent" dichotomy is another example that people don't know really what they want from a national governing association, other than they don't want the CSA.

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Guest speedmonk42
quote:Originally posted by Gian-Luca

Well said. I'm glad I am not the only one who noticed the irony in people hiding their true identity when they post & yet demanding transparency from others at the same time.

I think the "be run more like a business and yet be more transparent" dichotomy is another example that people don't know really what they want from a national governing association, other than they don't want the CSA.

And there is little or no acknowledgment of the real challenges the CSA faces.

We definitely do not want the CSA run like a business.

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quote:Originally posted by Gian-Luca

Well said. I'm glad I am not the only one who noticed the irony in people hiding their true identity when they post & yet demanding transparency from others at the same time.

As one of the biggest critics:

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=563797&l=6fe09&id=576170964

That's D U A N E...R O L L I N S.

Doesn't my head look funny in that pic? Anyway, I know you weren't directing the comment to me G-L, but I just wanted to illustrate that some of us are quite happy being upfront about what it is that we believe in as it relates to the CSA. Dino, who deserves most of the credit for the continued momentum there is for change, doesn't hide who he is either.

That said, your point is valid. An anonymous comment on the Vs does little. Standing behind your convictions, as yourself, can be incredibly powerful.

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quote:Originally posted by Gian-Luca

Well said. I'm glad I am not the only one who noticed the irony in people hiding their true identity when they post & yet demanding transparency from others at the same time.

I think the "be run more like a business and yet be more transparent" dichotomy is another example that people don't know really what they want from a national governing association, other than they don't want the CSA.

At least some people know what they don't want, right?

I have a feeling some members talking about changes but in the same time praying to god that nothing happens because they would not have reason to complain anymore.

The fact is we live in Canada... We don't know how to stand up for something we believe in. The CSA will continue to be below average, and we'll continue to complain on message boards and do nothing about it.

And if someone god forbid tries to do something we will try to find something to discredit the whole movement.

SACK THE CSA !!!

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"We definitely do not want the CSA run like a business."

Agreed, to a point. In a nutshell the objective of a business is growth and cash dividends for shareholders. That's not necessarily what we want from the CSA but the well established and proven models of structure, governance, oversight, accountability and management that the CSA could could and should borrow from the business sector would go a long way to resolving many of the issues we all have with the organisation as it is now.

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