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Is the REVOLUTION ON? they call it CSF


Eric
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quote:Originally posted by MediaGuy

Doesn't my head look funny in that pic? Anyway, I know you weren't directing the comment to me G-L, but I just wanted to illustrate that some of us are quite happy being upfront about what it is that we believe in as it relates to the CSA. Dino, who deserves most of the credit for the continued momentum there is for change, doesn't hide who he is either.

Absolutely, and as you say, my comment isn't directed at either of you.

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quote:Originally posted by Paddy

There are many people on this board who feel that if we qualify for the WC that everything else will magically fall into place. Sadly, it won't. It we do qualify, the CSA will take credit and further entrench.

The reality is that we have a current crop of above average Canadian players and it may be a long time before we see this level again if the status quo of CSA is maintained (there will be more Jono’s, not less). I think our not qualifying and the dismantling of the CSA (as a result of yet another failure) will do more to help out future generations of Canadian teams than qualification and another 20+ years of the CSA.

I am not too worried about us qualifying as I do not think the preparation will be there again, and as a friend put it, “We will be pulling out our calculators after only a few games to work out our chances of qualifying.” Same thing happened last time.

Heavens to Murgatroid! Who are you Paddy? I was beginning to think I was the only one who could see this as clearly as obviously you do too.
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quote:Originally posted by JB_Tito

And if someone god forbid tries to do something we will try to find something to discredit the whole movement.

It's not a question of people trying to find something to discredit a movement, but rather people expressing genuine concerns at ideas & information that is being presented to them. I don't think any of the people who have expressed these concerns were digging on the internet to discover this info, it was presented to us front & centre in a fan discussion group that we frequent.

There may be some people that think change of any kind is good, but I think it has to be the right change. I'm sorry if people don't agree, but I'm sure any member of the CSA could tell you (and the CSF will find out if they ever take their place) that getting people to agree on Canadian soccer is no easy task.

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quote:Originally posted by youllneverwalkalone

Okay. No sigh needed. We understand. Three people with massive super brains. This is amazing. But, if people want transparancy, the Association that has to obtain consent to have this information released. None of the giant super brains have explained how much this is worth to the parents who are paying for the consultation and implementation of the registry. How much will their fees go down as a result of the increased frequency of dinner time calls?

Overall, here's why I'm suspicious of these massive super brains to which everything comes so easy. The CSA/Provincial Associations do not have effective governance structures. The whole Linford affair makes this clear. But I don't believe for a second that these people's intelligence is so much inferior to the average super brain poster in this thread. If the Ref can build a database for $3,000 and sell the outputs for Zillions of dollars, wouldn't somebody be doing it?

I'd love to hear Dino's honest answer as to whether data mining had anything to do with the concept of a National Registry?

Could one of the super massive brain Voyageurs put together a budget with some numbers as to how much a National Registry would cost to build and maintain and how much revenue it could generate? This would be really interesting. I'm not being negative, just a little professional skepticism.

The database systems aready exist at the provincial level, cost to expand to National about a dollar.

To put it bluntly...You will Never Walk Alone .. it appears you have no knowledge of how soccer is structured and managed in the Country, that makes sense cause your a fan... what others are trying to point out to you is ..THE CSA is full of people like you ... who have litte real life knowledge or understanding of systemic organisation to create a successfull national sport organisation.

I note with interest your from BC and I understand the view from BC about soccer and the rest of the country is contraian, I can respect that .... I hope you will continue to post and over time expand your knowledge of whats really what with the CSA and soccer from club, to district, to province to National... from amatuer to non-amateur to professional.

At some point in the future you will get it... enjoy the learning curve..and then you truly will not be Walking alone.

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quote:Originally posted by speedmonk42

Marketing is only one part of it, and that would be worth an incredible amount of money.

The other part is communication. I really am serious when I say I meet people who run community clubs and do not know we have a national team. That seems impossible, but it is true.

Think what an email account for ever registered player means... how you can determine where to put certain games and direct sell the Mens National Team tickets and kit.

Think how you can track players who leave playing the game and find out why ?

Think how you can sent informative emails re training etc. to all your registered players in the country ?

The National Association would be dumb to sell its list, far better to sell its own existing products using the list..game tickets, kit, training, travel and tours...etc.

Fire the IMG idiots and run an in house marketing group with some style and creative thinking.

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"I find it shocking it would cost in the hundreds of thousands of dollars to create a database for 5,000 people. A 5,000 person database is extremely small. There must be something else with it,"

I agree on that one. $100k for a db that small? Some consultant got rich or it was a SAP implementation :)

For those who aren't computer types SAP is a hideously expensive software package that can cost you $1000 a day in consulting to implement plus the cost of the software and hardware.

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quote:Originally posted by Trillium

The database systems aready exist at the provincial level, cost to expand to National about a dollar.

To put it bluntly...You will Never Walk Alone .. it appears you have no knowledge of how soccer is structured and managed in the Country, that makes sense cause your a fan... what others are trying to point out to you is ..THE CSA is full of people like you ... who have litte real life knowledge or understanding of systemic organisation to create a successfull national sport organisation.

I note with interest your from BC and I understand the view from BC about soccer and the rest of the country is contraian, I can respect that .... I hope you will continue to post and over time expand your knowledge of whats really what with the CSA and soccer from club, to district, to province to National... from amatuer to non-amateur to professional.

At some point in the future you will get it... enjoy the learning curve..and then you truly will not be Walking alone.

Thanks to my buddy Robert for this: 1, 2, 3 blastoff! The most superlative massive f-ucking super brain of them all. This guy understands youth soccer! Like no other. He is the master of the 5 year-olds! Congratulations! Give this man a hand. And to think, some of us waste our time getting an education. And we go then support Canada for fun! Man do I feel like an idiot. I've completely wasted my life. I mean really, if I only had half the brain of this guy I'd be out with young boys all day and night.

But wait, I might be slow, so hold on... given that I already have a job and I don't have any kids or any significant amateur or professional experience, wouldn't it be weird to have such a fascination with young boys? I guess I'd better join CSF an get a real education on how to send emails to young boys.

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quote:Originally posted by youllneverwalkalone

There's definitely more going on, and I've just looked up the cost and looks like it was closer to $150k for consulting and implemetation.

I guess the question to you then is what would a database for 800,000 kids cost?

IMHO, it would need to be integrated with the Assocaition/Federation web site so dues could be collected online, which inturn would be intergrated with the accounting system.

And to Free Kick's point (and mine about privacy) what kinds of data could you reasonably be expected to collect? I mean if I were paying my kids fees online, I could imagine being asked to fill out a survey to collect information like income level, but I also know that I would decline. I suspect many others would to. What do you think?

The size of the database is only one issue, and is actually a rather small piece of the puzzle. The important things when creating a database is the correct intergration between it and other components in the system, security of the database, if it is replacing a legacy system and the data needs to be transferred, access to the databse, ect,ect,ect.

To put some perspective. For an undergrad course I created a database of content in time magazine articles, this database dealt with hundreds of documents and had approx. 32000 entries. So the size of the database is rather small in the estimation of cost.

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quote:Originally posted by Grizzly

This thread is getting pretty bitchy! I guess some people didn't get any valentines today!:D

Until now!

Seriously, Grizzly, I thought you'd never show up. A few guys are trying to have an intelligent conversation about databases and data mining and one of them gets dragged out into the street for being a CSA collaborator and, worse yet, a Vancouverite (we do play footballer in the winter, I know that's totally disgusting and completely against the tradition of the beautiful game!).

Anyway, I feel like Josef K.

Surely your anti-fascist sensibilities will put this thread straight.

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quote:Originally posted by MediaGuy

The CSA has totally lost all confidence, everywhere. Fresh faces with different ideas would at least provide a little hope. I don't buy that we have to tiptoe around the issues because it's a WCQ year. The players will continue to do what they do on the field to the best of their abilities and we will continue to cheer them on. The Hail Mary solution--getting to the WC--seems more of a possibility this time than others and it would certainly help the situation--if only to give us long suffering fans an award for our loyalty. But, without significant change, I see 2010 as a mirage. We'd go, cry when we heard the national anthem played, maybe get a result against Columbia before losing to Argentina and Switzerland, then come home and prepare to wait another 20+ years to get back.

But our bed is already made for 2010. There's no way any governing body, whether the CSA or a replacement, is going to enable us to get more FIFA dates, a larger, more talented player pool, more MLS clubs and a ton more cash to play friendlies between now and next year, when qualifying finishes. Wouldn't it be better if the "significant change" proposed happened after we qualified (or not) for 2010? If we fail to qualify for the World Cup the impetus & voice for change will only grow. If chaos ensues from a CSA/CSF war on the eve of qualifying, you are giving the CSA a ready-made excuse for failure, and potentially paint the CSF as the bad guys, or at least part of the problem - ie. "We didn't have enough funds for friendlies because clubs defected" etc). Yeah, not everyone will buy the excuse, but some will, and the soccer community just gets further divided. I can't see how that would be a good thing.

Especially as the main problem with Canadian soccer is something that no soccer association, whether better run than the CSA or not, can possibly fix. We don't have enough top-flight clubs developing top-flight soccer players the way the rest of the successful soccer world does. The main reason for this is that outside of the three biggest cities we don't have enough of a soccer culture to make it viable for investors & owners to want to put their money in the pro game. There is nothing that can be done about this in the short term. A soccer culture can't be imposed upon a socieety by an association, it has to be grown organically. I think we are in the process of that happening (ironically, thanks in part to the initiatives of the CSA to bring MLS to Canada, which many people on this board were fundamentally opposed to), but it's going to take some time.

If the idea is to act simply as a stronger lobby group to make the CSA more accountable that is one thing, but I feel that actual chaos resulting from an attempted coup is something we could do without at this time.

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quote:Originally posted by Pawel

The size of the database is only one issue, and is actually a rather small piece of the puzzle. The important things when creating a database is the correct intergration between it and other components in the system, security of the database, if it is replacing a legacy system and the data needs to be transferred, access to the databse, ect,ect,ect.

To put some perspective. For an undergrad course I created a database of content in time magazine articles, this database dealt with hundreds of documents and had approx. 32000 entries. So the size of the database is rather small in the estimation of cost.

Uhhh....

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quote:Originally posted by Cheeta

Uhhh....

I work on databases for the Ministry of Health in BC, and the database described (though smaller - there are 5 million people in BC) gives me headache to even contemplate. It would probably require contracting it out to a medium sized IT company to manage. There would have to be constant updates to the system as people moved, got divorced, dropped out or re-joined,...etc. Some of it could be done by an online interface that the registrant uses, but it would still take a lot of work to maintain. God...I could write all night (don't even get me started on privacy issues), but as I said, it is making my head hurt.

Maybe the Voyageurs could start a company to run it - some kind of non-profit gig.

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quote:Originally posted by Gian-Luca

If the idea is to act simply as a stronger lobby group to make the CSA more accountable that is one thing, but I feel that actual chaos resulting from an attempted coup is something we could do without at this time.

I understand where you are coming from. I guess my biggest worry is that we actually will qualify and the CSA will fail to benefit from the windfall comes from it.

I'm too young to remember '86 in detail, could someone older than I remind us how the CSA invested its windfall then and how it capitalized on the increased exposure. My suspicion is that most of the windfall went into youth soccer, and that some of the resulting boom in youth registration can be attributed to the exposure/money that came from '86. Actually, this might be worth its own thread....

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quote:Originally posted by MediaGuy

I understand where you are coming from. I guess my biggest worry is that we actually will qualify and the CSA will fail to benefit from the windfall comes from it.

I'm too young to remember '86 in detail, could someone older than I remind us how the CSA invested its windfall then and how it capitalized on the increased exposure. My suspicion is that most of the windfall went into youth soccer, and that some of the resulting boom in youth registration can be attributed to the exposure/money that came from '86. Actually, this might be worth its own thread....

I actually disagree with you. Qualifying for the World Cup would actually make more people in the media take notice of the CSA, putting them under even greater scrutiny. In the past 10 years, when has the CSA had its largest amount of scrutiny? In 2007, the year we hosted the U-20 World Cup and the year we had a great Gold Cup run.

The media paying more attention will be better for the CSF and its aims. Instead, if we fail to qualify, Canadian soccer will continue to be ignored by the mass media. Think about it, the only coverage I've seen of the CSF has been on a blog entry. That's it. If the CSA wanted, they could just laugh at you and ignore you, and no one would notice.

I think the CSF's downfall will be the fact that many of its member are actually hopeful of Canada's demise in order to push forward their agenda. I don't understand why we can't have it both ways. There's no reason we can't have great results and a better CSA.

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quote:Originally posted by Massive Attack

I think the CSF's downfall will be the fact that many of its member are actually hopeful of Canada's demise in order to push forward their agenda. I don't understand why we can't have it both ways. There's no reason we can't have great results and a better CSA.

Wow....that's the biggest falsehood I've read on this thread so far.

I've been part of a total of 7 face-to-face meetings over the past 3 months and been included in numerous emails and phone conversations. Not once have I heard anyone on our steering committee claim that they are "hopeful" of Canada's demise. In fact, we are all quite excited by the talent of our current men's national team pool of players and we hope DM can be the coach he believes he is and lead the team to the World Cup.

I am as big a fan of the national team as anyone. I will not stop hoping for the very best success for Canadian soccer players if our goals for the CSF prove fruitless. I'm still planning to watch Team Canada compete whenever and wherever their WCQ games are scheduled, budget and family committments permitting.

It is the goal of the CSF to improve the state of soccer from top down (governance/ogranizational reform at the national level) and from the grassroots up (making clubs stroger, better player development opportunities, smarter competition philosophies, better coaching education, etc...)

Our vision will result in a better future for soccer as a whole and it will result in far healthier national team programs, if for no other reason than the odds of producing more elite players capable of playing professional soccer will likely improve.

we can have great results for our national teams and an improved national soccer organization. I am quite confident that the national team programs will not be harmed as we push for fundamental reform of the Canadian Soccer. The only people who are in a positon to harm the national team programs at this moment are the people who are currently at the helm of the CSA and the various provincial organizations. In fact, they are doing a damned good job of harming these programs as we speak. Imagine what the Men's and Women's national team could be doing with close to $1 million of membership money that was instead directed to certain legal proceedings that will remain nameless. The CSF did not hire and fire a CEO and throw away a ton of money in the process? And that's just one example of financial impropriety.

The people harming the national teams are the ones in power now and they've been doing it for years. You really need to get your head around that reality. The ones trying to work to fix the system have the best interests of soccer in Canada at heart. You can choose to not believe it but that's your loss, not mine.

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quote:Originally posted by youllneverwalkalone

Thanks to my buddy Robert for this: 1, 2, 3 blastoff! The most superlative massive f-ucking super brain of them all. This guy understands youth soccer! Like no other. He is the master of the 5 year-olds! Congratulations! Give this man a hand. And to think, some of us waste our time getting an education. And we go then support Canada for fun! Man do I feel like an idiot. I've completely wasted my life. I mean really, if I only had half the brain of this guy I'd be out with young boys all day and night.

But wait, I might be slow, so hold on... given that I already have a job and I don't have any kids or any significant amateur or professional experience, wouldn't it be weird to have such a fascination with young boys? I guess I'd better join CSF an get a real education on how to send emails to young boys.

You've played the young boy card before. It wasn't funny then and it ain't funny now.

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And to answer some of the questions about the national registry:

- building a database to collect the registration data of players, coaches, referees, etc.. is not going to be cheap but it need not be obscenely expensive either. Getting the entire membership integrated won't be cheap but it's a 1 time expense.

- It is impossible to establish the cost of building such a database at this time because it will depend on how many functions you want to integrate into it.

- I can assure you as someone who is responsible for buying database information for the purposes of direct marketing of my company's products, the value of such a database is incalculable (and not just for the purpose of selling the list). information is power and good marketers will know how to maximize the revenue generation potential of a list with likely 900,000 names on it.

- the biggest cost with any database is maintenance of the database. You can't avoid that. However, right now, those maintenance costs are being incurred too many times (by district, province and CSA). That's unnecessary.

We believe quite strongly that registration data entry should happen only once in a fully intergrated system like the one we believe needs to exist. The type of efficiencies it will produce will result in the saving of hordes of money.

We are in the final stages of a major integration project at work right now and the savings we project by the end of 2009 will more than pay for what it cost to do the work in the first place, and that does not even include the manpower savings because we don't intend to lay anyone off whose current job will be made redundant. We'll just re-employ them somewhere else in the organization.

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I had a dream!!!.......

I see Canada qualified for the 2010 WC, I see the players on tv, radio, newspapers and blogs talking about how proud they are to go to the WC and how they did it without CSA help, as a matter of fact enduring CSA bad reputation and lack of support for preparation. I see the players and the coaching staff making the first move towards a change in our sick soccer system as newly arrived heroes from a tough war. I see how after the WC (it was a long dream) we end up with a professional league YES!! a pro league of our own, not a share league with an other country..... and at all games we will only listen to our canadian anthem and only our flag will be up at every stadium...YES!!! finally it's happening!!!

then I woke up, saw the snow and smell the coffee ........... it was just a dream :(

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