Is the REVOLUTION ON? they call it CSF

[VPjr]

quote:Originally posted by Massive Attack

VPjr, you can vouch for Bob and Peter all you want, but their stance on Canadians playing for Canada is just too large a bridge for me to cross. Unless they recant publicly and state they were wrong, I will continue to devalue the CSF.

Now, if the CSF wanted to move forward without either as part of its organizations, I would respect that greatly.

But as long as the CSF is in bed with anti-Canadian soccer types, I think it is a waste of time.

It's unfortunate you feel that way. We'll have to live with you as a dissenter then.

[Gian-Luca]

quote:Originally posted by MediaGuy

I understand where you are coming from. I guess my biggest worry is that we actually will qualify and the CSA will fail to benefit from the windfall comes from it.

I'm too young to remember '86 in detail, could someone older than I remind us how the CSA invested its windfall then and how it capitalized on the increased exposure. My suspicion is that most of the windfall went into youth soccer, and that some of the resulting boom in youth registration can be attributed to the exposure/money that came from '86.

I wouldn't be surprised if some money did go into the grassroots stuff (though I doubt there was registration boom that resulted from the cash), but my recollection is that we had a lot of friendlies in Asia and the following year hosted the Sir Stanley Matthews Cup in Toronto (which we ended up winning over Greece and Chile). We also hosted the U17 World Cup the following year, so I bet a good chunk of cash went into that.

The thing is though that the people making the decisions in CSA today aren't necessarily the same people who did so 22 year ago. In fact, from what I understand the people making the decisions in the CSA today are for the most part not even the same from two years ago (even Pipe is gone) - with the exception of Angus Barrett. So I'm not sure how many lessons can be drawn from that experience from the admin. side. On the flip side, from a "soccer culture" point of view, the 86 World Cup qualification helped to convince investors to form the Canadian Soccer League. While I'm not saying that a new league will spring up if we qualify for 2010, I think it is the more indicative example to look at in terms of qualification helping to create a Canadian soccer culture, and thereby making the CSA (or any other governing body) as less relevant as they should be.

[youllneverwalkalone]

Dino,

Do you see the CSF trying to unite community clubs into a CHL type structure? That would be interesting. Do people in the grassroots want this type of association of top amateur leagues?

[VPjr]

quote:Originally posted by Massive Attack

Flynn Beharry of the CSF was on the Fan590's soccer show yesterday. You can listen to it here:

http://tinyurl.com/35m72k

He was in the first segment.

Its pretty clear that the CSF is more interested in lowering registration fees than it is in the National Teams.

Flynn was not asked about the national team, other than Gerry Dobson's question if we have considered if FIFA would suspend the CSA and it's teams because of "outside interfedence".

Bob explained quite clearly that we would have to explain to FIFA what the real state of affairs in Canada is and why the membership feels reform is needed.

The thought that a reform initiative that rises up from the grassroots membership of the CSA with the goal of reforming Canadian soccer can be considered by FIFA as "outside interference" in the same way as a national government trying to take control of an FA is ludicrous. If FIFA did take such action, it would be an indictment of FIFA. The membership has a right to reject its governing body if it feels the governing body is not representing them properly, especially when the membership provides the bulk of the funding to said body.

[Gian-Luca]

quote:Originally posted by VPjr

The people harming the national teams are the ones in power now and they've been doing it for years.

I didn't think it was that many years though. How long have Montagliani, Ursini & Maestracci & co. really been in charge (not counting Linford before that)? Two at the most? I could be wrong but I was informed that there was a pretty widespread change in the CSA brass when Linford came to power.

[loyola]

I watched Extratime with Lee Godfrey and Paul James and they did talk about this issue and PJ had some interesting stuff to say (I also liked what he said about JDG2).

BTW, this thread should be move, I'm here to discuss canadian national team soccer and what's going with the players. These discussions are surely interesting and important but they just don't belong here. I've no problem discussing the impact of the CSA work towards our national team but I don't think this thread adressed that.

[Richard]

If you don't like this thread then don't open it and participate, it really is that simple.

[loyola]

quote:Originally posted by Richard

If you don't like this thread then don't open it and participate, it really is that simple.

I have no problem with the thread content, it's just this subject shouldn't be discussed here. If there's no place maybe create a new forum to discuss this subject, I just don't think it should belong here. That was my point.

[VPjr]

quote:Originally posted by youllneverwalkalone

Dino,

Do you see the CSF trying to unite community clubs into a CHL type structure? That would be interesting. Do people in the grassroots want this type of association of top amateur leagues?

This is a concept I have personally supported for a long time. I think about it constantly. We talk about establishing national standards for "charter clubs". One of the things we've spoken about at length is the need for Charter Clubs to offer a stong Senior Team program. We have not honestly gone too far past that point yet but its clear that we all believe that Senior soccer (be it high level amateur or semi-professional) is critically important to growing the game. This initiative may not develop many players for the national team program but it just might. Imagine a very gifted 14 year old who is not challenged by playing rep. If the club had a high level senior team, the head coach or TD could then arrange to move the youngster up to play at the level that suits his/her skills best. This is something we believe in strongly....kids should play at the level that suits their skills, not necessarily only at arbitrary age levels.

I've spoken to head coaches about this idea (95% of them agree with the concept) but not to club execs yet. At our meeting on the 28th, it is a question I will pose to everyone and anyone club related that I can corner.

[VPjr]

quote:Originally posted by Gian-Luca

I didn't think it was that many years though. How long have Montagliani, Ursini & Maestracci & co. really been in charge (not counting Linford before that)? Two at the most? I could be wrong but I was informed that there was a pretty widespread change in the CSA brass when Linford came to power.

The names may change but what they do in power doesn't. I wish I was wrong but the proof is in the pudding. These guys come from the provinces. They don't get to the top by accident. They are politicians and not necessarily considered with the state of the game but with what is in their own best interests. I know it sounds like rhetoric but I think there is enough proof to show that there is alot of truth to the rhetoric.

Also, keep in mind that many of the members of the current board are the people who offered the job to Nykamp, only to take it away and then cost th membership a HUGE amount of money. Montagliani was on committee that made the offer to Nykamp, accoding to Nykamp's statement of claim.

[Eric]

quote:Originally posted by putkaputka

I agree I am pessimistic.

But... while it is that almost all countries develop players without the uni system, the Uni system is what works for North America.

I disagree the clubs are held back by bureaucrats. Does a bureaucrat stop a club from buying grounds and charging admission to its games? I don't think so. What bars the club from doing this is that people will not buy the tickets. Simple as that. So the investor will not recoup the investment.

I just don't understand how anything about this can be changed from the top by a soccer organization. If people do not invest in soccer in Canada, well the number 1 reason is that there is no money in soccer in Canada. Except in selling replica kits for Euro teams.

As a parent, I ask myself: why would a parent let her child put school work on the back burner for playing soccer at some community soccer club, when there is no career in soccer after that community club. And you know, a couple, hell even 10 MSL clubs in Canada will not change that.

The only solution I see is if that kid will have an opportunity to receive a free education at a university or college if the “MSL” or “Europe” dream does not work out – and we know with 100% certainty that the dream will not become reality for 99.999% of the kids playing.

People are rational beings. Do you think if the CSA told them -- "Trust us: send your kid to XYZ Intalian Stalions to play soccer every day and he will become a star!" -- they will do so?

But I think if the CSA could tell them – "Send you kid with XYZ and he will, at the least, receive a free education at U of T on a soccer scholarship!" they will do so.

Who would NOT want to do that? It’s like extended warranty – you can’t lose

Scholarships for the best or most talented players in each of our youth clubs can always be arranged through by the same club if they believe it would be beneficial for the club in the long run.

1. We don't have in Canada a system that will compensate monetarily clubs that invest money and time developing elite players. In order to do that you need top pro coaches with experience and knowledge on how to produce an elite player and that cost a lot of money.

2. The kids have no where to go after the age of 18 for the simple reason that clubs are not interested in going any farther in the players development, why?

A- They don't know how to develop a pro player.

B- They can't recognize an elite player (real elite I mean)

C- They don't have qualified coaches to do the job.

3. Youth clubs have no ownership on players "cards" meaning they can't make money for the sell of one of their club players and that is a professional procedure.

4. How can this be mend? By giving youth clubs with 500 or more register Rep players a time window of three years to filled up a Men's or Women's team with at least 70% of their rosters to be home homegrown.

5. Each province should organize men's and women leagues with these clubs, including a promotion and relegation system. That by it self will create a pro atmosphere within the soccer communities in each province and kids will go to support their clubs fist teams at the games.

6. This system will make things easy to select the best players for our national programs, of course that will kill the so called "Provincial Programs" (the biggest lie in soccer in Canada) because the CLUBS will be the ones doing the work and it will be in their best interest to come up with a talent that will mean revenue for the club and brighter future for the player.

I don't know much about the game politics but I know one thing, what I just exposed above is what every football nation in the world does this to create revenue and professional players. It's NOT rocket science it's just the way football or soccer is develop all over the world. I think there is too many people in Canada that don't want this to ever happen, because that will live them out from running their little kingdom. Most of these people never play the game at a pro or semi-pro level and by kipping things the way they are they still have a chance to keep feeling important and "respected".

Most of these people work for the Provincial Associations in Canada which to my view are the real POISON in our game, the CSA is just a consequence of the sickness.

[Gian-Luca]

quote:Originally posted by Massive Attack

Flynn Beharry of the CSF was on the Fan590's soccer show yesterday. You can listen to it here:

http://tinyurl.com/35m72k

He was in the first segment.

Its pretty clear that the CSF is more interested in lowering registration fees than it is in the National Teams.

What I found most alarming is that Beharry has basically states that "in 30 years" of being in soccer, he had never heard of a situation where FIFA had suspended a country for having its soccer governing body interfered with by external forces, and seemed to have never even previously considered the possibilty that this might happen.

The second most alarming thing I heard was the stated plan to connect with the "grassroots" and get them to "cut-off funding" to the district associations, the provinces and the CSA. Well, they picked a good year to try that tactic, it's not like we've got any important World Cup Qualifiers coming up that we need to prepare for. Apparently though the view is that the CSA will still have enough money in the pot that they can't say that they don't have enough money to send a team to play an "exhibition game against British Columbia". (????)

To say that I am an less than impressed after hearing this would be an understatement.

[Joe MacCarthy]

quote:Originally posted by Gian-Luca

Flynn Beharry of the CSF was on the Fan590's soccer show yesterday.

To say that I am an less than impressed after hearing this would be an understatement.

Aside from Mallett and Iarusci, who are these goomers anyway?

[Richard]

quote:Originally posted by Gian-Luca

What I found most alarming is that Beharry has basically states that "in 30 years" of being in soccer, he had never heard of a situation where FIFA had suspended a country for having its soccer governing body interfered with by external forces, and seemed to have never even previously considered the possibilty that this might happen.

The second most alarming thing I heard was the stated plan to connect with the "grassroots" and get them to "cut-off funding" to the district associations, the provinces and the CSA. Well, they picked a good year to try that tactic, it's not like we've got any important World Cup Qualifiers coming up that we need to prepare for. Apparently though the view is that the CSA will still have enough money in the pot that they can't say that they don't have enough money to send a team to play an "exhibition game against British Columbia". (????)

To say that I am an less than impressed after hearing this would be an understatement.

I am inclined to agree, that was not good for their cause.

[Massive Attack]

quote:Originally posted by Joe MacCarthy

Aside from Mallett and Iarusci, who are these goomers anyway?

Using my mad google skills:

Flynn Beharry - General Manager - North York Hearts Soccer Club. It should be noted that Bob Iarusci is also a Director of this youth club, which probably explains how they both got involved.

Stephen Williams - I can't find anything on this guy. His name is too common I guess.

Dino Rossi - VPjr []

Ron Werda - I'm not sure exactly what he does, he is possibly just a fan. He might be involved with this website: http://www.canadiansoccer.org/home.htm

He was also involved in making fake TFC merchandise that was being sold on ebay as a group called "TFC Fandemonium", claiming to be the original TFC supporters group. One thing is certain, he is heavily involved in charity work involving soccer, which should be commended.

[VPjr]

To address Richard and G-L's comments:

the only way to effect change is if a threat to cut off funding to the CSA and the provinces exists and is considered a real threat. However, none of us are stupid enough to think we can win widespread acceptance to our ideas if anything we do has a direct impact on the National Teams, men's and women's.

We have not given consideration to FIFA suspending Canada because we think its foolish to consider a membership uprising "interfence from an external force". We are not the Greek Government trying to take over the Greek FA. We are members of an organization trying to take back our organization, re-organize and make it operate more properly.

There are people who are fans of only the MNT. That's cool. You don't have to care about anything below the MNT if you wish. If the MNT is your only concern, you will pick out that statement made by Flynn and blow it out of proportion. I can't control that.

For whatever reason, there are people on this forum who want to believe that anyone who talks about changing soccer is some sort of grim reaper ready to decapitate national team programs because there is the general perception that the grassroots hates the national team program. It's sad that people feel that way but, again, I can't control that. I honestly expected better from some of you when it comes to being reasonable and open-minded but I guess I'm naive.

I see this again, you can't fix the national team problems without fixing everything else that is wrong in Canadian soccer. Those who believe that our national team problems are independant of most every other problem is wearing rose tinted glasses and not facing reality. The only way to fix all the problems is to make massive changes and making massive changes will require making real threats to make the established powers sit up and take notice.

[VPjr]

quote:Originally posted by Massive Attack

Using my mad google skills:

Flynn Beharry - General Manager - North York Hearts Soccer Club. It should be noted that Bob Iarusci is also a Director of this youth club, which probably explains how they both got involved.

Stephen Williams - I can't find anything on this guy. His name is too common I guess.

Dino Rossi - VPjr []

Ron Werda - I'm not sure exactly what he does, he is possibly just a fan. He might be involved with this website: http://www.canadiansoccer.org/home.htm

He was also involved in making fake TFC merchandise that was being sold on ebay as a group called "TFC Fandemonium", claiming to be the original TFC supporters group. One thing is certain, he is heavily involved in charity work involving soccer, which should be commended.

Stephen is a coach and operates an independant Youth Club in the Niagara region

Ron does run that website and does a tremendous amount of charity work involving Soccer, including being involved the UN World Peace Games.

Me - I'm just a house league coach and fan of soccer at all levels. I'm one of those strange guys who enjoys a U16 rep game almost as much as a TFC match or a National Team match.

Bob actually took over Toronto Azzuri S.C. a few years back. I can't exactly remember the circumstances surrounding how Toronto Azzuri S.C. and North York Hearts S.C. joined forces but the two clubs work closely together because they operate in essentially the same territory

[Gian-Luca]

quote:Originally posted by VPjr

The names may change but what they do in power doesn't.

That's beside the point though - you had been implying the same people were in power for decades, which isn't the case for the current group. The fact that they have been no more successful in what they do than their predecessors leads me to my next point below.....

quote:

I wish I was wrong but the proof is in the pudding. These guys come from the provinces. They don't get to the top by accident. They are politicians and not necessarily considered with the state of the game but with what is in their own best interests. I know it sounds like rhetoric but I think there is enough proof to show that there is alot of truth to the rhetoric.

I have no trouble believing this. But I also have no trouble believing it will still be the case for any new group of political leaders, whether the initials they operate under be the "CSA" or the "CSF". In order to get into & stay in power politicians often do things that is in their own self-interest and not necessarily for the greater good, despite the best of intentions at times. I can already see signs of this with the CSF, as the actions seem to be partly motivated by self-interest for their clubs & saving them $$$. I can't see how any new group, no matter how idealistic or well-intentioned, is going to stay immune from that. That's something to bear in mind.

[BrennanFan]

quote:Originally posted by VPjr

To address Richard and G-L's comments:

the only way to effect change is if a threat to cut off funding to the CSA and the provinces exists and is considered a real threat. However, none of us are stupid enough to think we can win widespread acceptance to our ideas if anything we do has a direct impact on the National Teams, men's and women's.

We have not given consideration to FIFA suspending Canada because we think its foolish to consider a membership uprising "interfence from an external force". We are not the Greek Government trying to take over the Greek FA. We are members of an organization trying to take back our organization, re-organize and make it operate more properly.

There are people who are fans of only the MNT. That's cool. You don't have to care about anything below the MNT if you wish. If the MNT is your only concern, you will pick out that statement made by Flynn and blow it out of proportion. I can't control that.

For whatever reason, there are people on this forum who want to believe that anyone who talks about changing soccer is some sort of grim reaper ready to decapitate national team programs because there is the general perception that the grassroots hates the national team program. It's sad that people feel that way but, again, I can't control that. I honestly expected better from some of you when it comes to being reasonable and open-minded but I guess I'm naive.

I see this again, you can't fix the national team problems without fixing everything else that is wrong in Canadian soccer. Those who believe that our national team problems are independant of most every other problem is wearing rose tinted glasses and not facing reality. The only way to fix all the problems is to make massive changes and making massive changes will require making real threats to make the established powers sit up and take notice.

if the CSF thinks cutting funding to the MNT in a WCQ year is a good thing for Canadian soccer, then the CSF is just as ill conceived as the CSA.

[Eric]

quote:Originally posted by Gian-Luca

That's beside the point though - you had been implying the same people were in power for decades, which isn't the case for the current group. The fact that they have been no more successful in what they do than their predecessors leads me to my next point below.....

I have no trouble believing this. But I also have no trouble believing it will still be the case for any new group of political leaders, whether the initials they operate under be the "CSA" or the "CSF". In order to get into & stay in power politicians often do things that is in their own self-interest and not necessarily for the greater good, despite the best of intentions at times. I can already see signs of this with the CSF, as the actions seem to be partly motivated by self-interest for their clubs & saving them $$$. I can't see how any new group, no matter how idealistic or well-intentioned, is going to stay immune from that. That's something to bear in mind.

So you think the CSF group should not be affiliated to any club?

[Gian-Luca]

quote:Originally posted by VPjr

To address Richard and G-L's comments:

the only way to effect change is if a threat to cut off funding to the CSA and the provinces exists and is considered a real threat.

The CSF document states that one of it's goals is to foster unity in the soccer community, and yet amongst the first public statements the CSF makes is to issue a threat. Do you not see how insincere this makes that document look, and why so many have a hard time taking it seriously?

quote:

We have not given consideration to FIFA suspending Canada because we think its foolish to consider a membership uprising "interfence from an external force". We are not the Greek Government trying to take over the Greek FA. We are members of an organization trying to take back our organization, re-organize and make it operate more properly.

That's not what it looks like and it is not what it will look like if you proceed in this fashion. If you organize a separate organization with it's own separate members as you seem to have done, then it will very much look like an external force interfering. Especially if you are seen to encourage other CSA members to withhold funds. And you guys have no control what the CSA (the organization actually accredited with FIFA) are going to report to FIFA and make it look like in their eyes. And FIFA is an organization that none of us should trust one bit.

quote:

For whatever reason, there are people on this forum who want to believe that anyone who talks about changing soccer is some sort of grim reaper ready to decapitate national team programs because there is the general perception that the grassroots hates the national team program.

No, I think the general perception is that the grassroots don't care that much about the national teams or certainly that they care about their own self-interests more, often resulting to the detriment of the national teams. There was nothing in that radio segment that will change that perception, I'm sorry to say that it only reinforced it.

[Gian-Luca]

quote:Originally posted by Eric

So you think the CSF group should not be affiliated to any club?

Eh? Not sure what you are getting at there, it's not for me to say who or what they should be affiliated with. My own view is that they would do better things for change as a lobby group rather than an attempt at operating as a parallel power to the CSA & potentially causing a lot of chaos at the worst possible time, but that's just my opinion.

[Free kick]

quote:Originally posted by loyola

I have no problem with the thread content, it's just this subject shouldn't be discussed here. If there's no place maybe create a new forum to discuss this subject, I just don't think it should belong here. That was my point.

You have a point. This subject has nothing to do with the Mens National teams or any of the national teams for that matter.

[The Ref]

quote:Originally posted by BrennanFan

if the CSF thinks cutting funding to the MNT in a WCQ year is a good thing for Canadian soccer, then the CSF is just as ill conceived as the CSA.

The CSF does not fund the MNT.

[VPjr]

quote:Originally posted by Gian-Luca

That's beside the point though - you had been implying the same people were in power for decades, which isn't the case for the current group. The fact that they have been no more successful in what they do than their predecessors leads me to my next point below.....

I have no trouble believing this. But I also have no trouble believing it will still be the case for any new group of political leaders, whether the initials they operate under be the "CSA" or the "CSF". In order to get into & stay in power politicians often do things that is in their own self-interest and not necessarily for the greater good, despite the best of intentions at times. I can already see signs of this with the CSF, as the actions seem to be partly motivated by self-interest for their clubs & saving them $$$. I can't see how any new group, no matter how idealistic or well-intentioned, is going to stay immune from that. That's something to bear in mind.

No argument that there will always be people who seek to further their own interests in almost anything. Human nature is a bitch.

One check on the abuse of power will be that voting for the Board of Regents will be done by the membership rather than by an exlusive group of cronies who are watching each other's back and covering up each other's misdeeds. the CSA is the ultimate backscratchers clubs.

In a direct voting system, those who hold office to persue their own interests alone will have difficulty keeping power. Furthermore, the influence of the board under the CSF model will be reduced vs. today's reality. It will serve to provide an oversight function as well as provide assistance in strategic planning.