Toronto MB Posted February 12, 2008 Share Posted February 12, 2008 To VP and those with questions regarding the chosen committee for this group. It would seem that no matter the combination of people suggested or chosen for a non-CSA administration, there will alaways be naysayers. What is important is that I know that all of these listed figures have a genuine interest in Canadian Soccer. That is an important start. Kudos on some interesting preliminary ideas. I will let it sink in for a day or two. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vpsoccer Posted February 12, 2008 Share Posted February 12, 2008 quote:Originally posted by aussoccerfan In Atlantic Canada, All the winter leagues seem to only be for the elite levels too, despite the fact that there's a growing number of indoor facilities. Don't knock that too much. It is unfortunate when the elite youth lose their winter development league because the facilities can make more money by renting out to adult rec leagues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fort York Redcoat1555362293 Posted February 12, 2008 Share Posted February 12, 2008 it looks like Bob will have something to talk about on the Soccer Show on fan590 this Thurs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VPjr Posted February 12, 2008 Share Posted February 12, 2008 quote:Originally posted by vpsoccer Don't knock that too much. It is unfortunate when the elite youth lose their winter development league because the facilities can make more money by renting out to adult rec leagues. Our new facility in Mississauga (Hershey Sportszone) has seemingly found a very nice balance of accomodating the youth rep teams and the adult rec leagues. I have been very impressed to see how many young people have been making use of the facilities, especially in the 6-8pm window on weeknights and on weekends. It's a tough balance but our best elite players do need access to indoor pitches as much as is possible to keep the skill development going 12 months / year. Plus, the small sided football that gets played indoors really improves ball skills. I am impressed by the quality of play I have witnessed since the facility opened about 6 months ago, from boys and girls. Of course, the best football is found on Tuesday nights when my squad of out-of-shape wanna-be Ronaldinho's s takes the field for a little kickabout after 11pm. It's a sight to see (not a pretty sight but definitely a sight) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbailey62 Posted February 12, 2008 Share Posted February 12, 2008 quote:Originally posted by Daniel People's Front of Judea? I thought we were the Popular Front! db Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fan Posted February 12, 2008 Share Posted February 12, 2008 A repost of my posts from 4 years ago below. You can see these concepts have been communicated by me and a rare few others for years. Most of the people here supported the CSA, Pipe and his cronies and only after the disasters occurred did they bother to join in. Part of the biggest problem your (CSF) going to have is that not just here on this forum but most Canadian soccer fans have little will or strength to contribute after this shambles and you will incur a lot of the blame, depression and anger that has been created by the CSA and the board. Also the very large hurdle of FIFA approval. The good news is you are bang on about sponsors not willing to finance or deal with the CSA and they may be keen to support a new group. There are millions of dollars available to be given to a competent professional group that can demonstrate even average return on their dollar.The Canadian soccer supporters who are part of the private interest and wealthy elite are dying to support a new movement and haven't donated a penny to the CSA for decades. Good Luck! Posted - 04/18/2004 : 13:54:21 Several voyageur posts have suggested excellent positive and creative ideas that demonstrate the contrast of competence. This is what were talking about, the CSA and OSA have no will and certainly no competency when it comes to promoting the game. And kill every opportunity that could promote the game. Because of greed and nepotism we are suffering at the hands of these people. So yes we can complain and share our frustration here but until the "old boys club" are gone at the CSA it is fruitless.there's no point in complaining to the CSA. The media needs to hear that we want the CSA out and all the lead members and board members gone. The kind of revenue that a game like Celtic can generate shows the corporate and big money people that there is a huge financial gain to be made by soccer in Canada.That will generate them supporting a professional club but not with the present CSA roadblock in place. Thats exactly why teams with semi pro caliber remain in Canada because thats all the CSA want and will allow.There are fans, there is passion and there is huge money to be made. fan 333 Posts Posted - 03/27/2004 : 14:31:25 Lets give credit where credit is due.THE VOYAGEUR FORUM constantly comes up with superior sensible plans and ideas week to week and if the CSA would have adopted or come up with even one of these plans over the past year they would be at lease considered competent. Never mind the last twenty years of "no real plan" or "no real succesful marketing plan" or "no succesful Canadian national team" (except the womens team in the under 23 in Edmonton and world cup last year).Considering soccer has the most amount of players of any sport even hockey this is an utter disgrace of incompetence. The CSA and its entire staff for the last 20 years are an embarrassment and totally incompetent group who all would have been fired for one year of such incompetence.The poster above mentioned the a Canadian national title,excellent idea but a great example of how incompetent the CSA IS , and worse completely unconcerned and caring that this is so fc**** obvious they know this but wont even try to come up with this idea and implement it.Thats called willful negligence . Some people were asking "what can the CSA do there trying?" you have to be kidding or completely ignorant to have that point of view and if thats your actual defense which I have heard numerous members of the CSA state publicly over the last 20 years you should resign or be fired. If the Canadian Soccer Association had one succesful mens team or supported one Canadian professional team that in itself would drive the support and financial backing automatically from the fans corporations and even the government.This has been proven extensively throughout sport worldwide. But the fact remains the CSA have been an utter failure for 20 year s with tiny insignificant successes and No significant succesful national mens team .With the resources and passion and sheer number of people that love and play this game in Canada that is totally unacceptable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizzly Posted February 12, 2008 Share Posted February 12, 2008 I think it is shocking and disgraceful to put together a reform proposal of the CSA that doesn't even mention the national teams anywhere other than in the structural chart. The CSA has consistently underestimated the importance of the national teams especially the MNT resulting in underfunding. Yet this proposal seems intent on replacing them with an organization that values the national teams even less. And those that don't think us qualifying for the World Cup would bring major change to soccer in Canada are wrong. Qualification would be huge and would create a boom in Canadian soccer with many of our professional players becoming household names and kids everywhere realizing that soccer like hockey can have a professional future and dreaming of playing for Canada in the World Cup. We only have to look at the US to see how much impact their national team success had on the sport in their country. I think the CSA needs massive changes in how it is run and structured. The changes proposed in this document don't seem to me to be the ones needed. Additionally the structure can be optimized as much as possible but it doesn't matter if the people running it are not good. I find it hard to take serious any proposal with people like Bob Iarusci and Peter Mallett involved. They are both soccer fans but I am not sure either is really a Canadian soccer fan nor am I convinced of the competency/organizational abilities/leadership skills of either. I have not been very impressed with Dominic Maestracci and Victor Montagliani so far but I am also not in favour of replacing them with the Peter and Bob show. At least I have yet to hear Dominic and Victor praise players for turning their back on their country and playing for another nation. I am also very curious as to how the CSF proposes to become the national body. Are they going to be recruiting clubs and players to join them? Is this the start of some war in which CSF supporting soccer clubs will be pitted against CSA soccer clubs? Is this really what Canadian soccer needs? I am all for protesting against the CSA and trying to get them to move toward extensive reform including putting better people on the Board of Directors and reforming the structure of the organization. However, too many people want change for changes sake without examining what the change is. Proposals to massively change how soccer is run have to be examined very carefully as well as the backgrounds of the people proposing them. The idea is not just to replace/reform the CSA but to replace/reform it with something better. This proposal so far does not meet those criteria in my eyes. Indeed as hard as it may seem to believe, soccer in this country could be even run worse than it currently is. I am hearing a lot of proposals about replacing the CSA that remind me of the revolutions against the brutal, undemocratic monarchic governments that replaced them with even more brutal and undemocratic communist regimes. The CSA needs reform but that reform must improve the organization and must be well and very carefully thought out and carried out by competent people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soju Posted February 12, 2008 Share Posted February 12, 2008 quote:Originally posted by Gian-Luca I think my concern would be moreso with Peter Mallett and a perceived conflict of interest. He wrote a very pro-Jono/anti-CSA article which is fine (even though I disagree with the former part) but IMO it doesn't make him look good or very impartial to be writing articles publicly advocating the destruction of the CSA if secretly part of an organization seeking to replace that This is not to suggest that Mallett can't be involved in any such organization, just that I think it would have made him look better had he declared his involvement up front, particularly when using Jono's decision as a weapon to destroy the CSA with. Now this is something I will be bearing in mind the next time I read one of his articles. I second that. As posted in the Fan 590 thread here's an excerpt from Mallett's article on Jono: -------------------------- 'So when so called "patriots" turn themselves to the discussion of Jonathan de Guzman and curse and swear - and hum and hah - that he is playing for Holland instead of Canada - you may want to reconsider hear the advice of Bobby de Guzman to his son. “Do what is best for you Jono and have no regrets when you make your decision”' ----------------------------- This guy has Canada's best interests in mind? Oh interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JB_Tito Posted February 12, 2008 Share Posted February 12, 2008 quote:Originally posted by Soju What makes you think he doesn't? How many JDG2 have to happened in this country? We have group of people that really want to see some changes done.They are out trying to do something,and what they get is being put in the same pot with CSA BoD.Keep bitching and looking for wrong names in this movement that what we do best moan and do jack s**t. Well all I can say is Welcome to mediocrity of Canadian Soccer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarrek Posted February 12, 2008 Share Posted February 12, 2008 Canadian Soccer Federation? Sounds very Star Trekkish ... Why not give it a real name and have Football in it. Maybe this organization will wake up the boneheads at the CSA? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gian-Luca Posted February 12, 2008 Share Posted February 12, 2008 quote:Originally posted by JB_Tito Publicly encouraging & supporting Canadian players to play for other nations is probably more damaging to Canadian soccer than anything even the CSA could do. I remember when Hargreaves chose to play for another country and many in the media supported the decision, many of us were worried that it would set the kind of precedent that we didn't want to set, that it was okay for our players to play for other countries. Some people tried to tell us not to worry about that, it was unlikely to happen again. Well they have been proven wrong & our fears have been unfortunately confirmed. Any media members who publicly support decisions not to play for Canada are part of the problem, rather than any form of solution. The line about "so-called "patriots"" was an un-necessary and direct shot at Canadian soccer supporters as much, if not moreso, as Bobby DeGuzman's shot at the "nationalists" in the same article. I have a big-time problem with that. Perhaps he only came across as so supportive of Jonathan and Bobby (and insulting to Canadian soccer fans) because he wanted to take a shot at the CSA. This is the problem - the whole article he wrote now appears to be coloured by an ulterior motive. Incidentally, if he is going to be part of a group claiming to establish a culture of "unparalled transparency", it would have been nice to see some of that in the article he wrote. Instead this just gives the impression that those are simply nice-sounding, but not particulary heart-felt, words. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
youllneverwalkalone Posted February 12, 2008 Share Posted February 12, 2008 quote:Originally posted by L.T. So why aren't we producing any??? I'm not surprised to see that opinion on this board. It seems as though most Voyaguers believe that our teenage talent is turning out just fine and it is only the mismanagement of the CSA that turns them into pumpkins when they put on a National team sweater. That is a very naive and shortsighted view. When the French realized their national team was in shambles they restructured their organization from top to bottom. If you think there this is a quick fix that can be implemented at the top of this pyramid, then you are going to be disappointed... Well, looking at our Gold Cup team I thought we were pretty competitive. So where did Atiba, DDR, Stalteri, Hainault, Onstad, Harmse, & Gerba come from? I'm not trying to say your academy isn't being negatively influenced by the state of the CSA, I just think there are bigger problems facing Canada soccer. And please, give me a break, the French have robbbed Africa of many of their great players. That is not development, it's the continuation of a cultural genocide which started when they raped and pillaged those nations in the first place. The French are ten times worse than the Dutch for stealing talented youngster but, and this is the key point, are able to do so because they have a highly developed professional infrastructure which Canada will never have. No amount of policy documents or letters to the editor are gonna change that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gian-Luca Posted February 12, 2008 Share Posted February 12, 2008 quote:Originally posted by Grizzly I am also very curious as to how the CSF proposes to become the national body. Are they going to be recruiting clubs and players to join them? Is this the start of some war in which CSF supporting soccer clubs will be pitted against CSA soccer clubs? Well I hope not. After all, the CSF document states one of its goals is to encourage everyone involved to work "in unity", so waging a war would seem to run counter to that goal. As you say, starting up a war is exactly the last thing we need going into World Cup qualifying. I hate to say it because I know that some of the people involved mean well, I have to agree with your criticisms of the document. For me this looks like replacing one soccer bureacracy with another, without any clear plan or vision to address the biggest concerns, the national teams and lack of professional clubs. I'm not saying it is easy to come up with a clear plan or vision in that regard - it isn't easy at all, and that's part of the problem. But for me that has to be the starting point. Others of course may have a different view. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redhat Posted February 12, 2008 Share Posted February 12, 2008 quote:Originally posted by Stephen LaRose The talent may be there, but after seeing Dale Mitchel's coaching ability at the U20s I have no faith that this team will make it to South Africa. None at all. Respectfully, as much as you are entitled to your opinion ... What the heck are you doing on a CANADIAN SOCCER SUPPORTERS' FORUM? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilverSamurai Posted February 12, 2008 Share Posted February 12, 2008 quote:Originally posted by VPjr I would suggest to you that some of the current sponsors are not happy with the current state of affairs at the CSA. No private company likes to be associated with an organization that is more noted for failures than successes. If the CSA could manage more success on the field and less blunders off the field and actually know how to treat its sponsors properly, recruiting more sponsors (and thereby reducing the burden on the membership) might be more likely. the funding for a national soccer organization is a touchy subject. No one wants the grassroots to fund the FA (only 4 or 5 countries currently rely on registration taxes to fund their FA's) but it is likely a necessary evil, at least for a period of time. The goal of the CSF proposal is to cut out alot of layers of unnecessary fat. Bill Ault wrote an excellent article a year or so ago that dealt with how much waste their is in the system (check out the Canadakicks website to read it). Maybe you can't eliminate registration taxes overnight but instead of taking $40+ per head for a rep player, maybe you can drop the levy to $30 and then less and less as you introduce more efficiencies and eliminate more redundant entities. I know I'm speaking in generalities. We can't speak in specifics obviously at this point. But we know there are efficiencies to be had that will keep money with the clubs but still result in a larger budget for the national association than currently is the case. I agree with you. But you;ll have to prove to them you're not just another CSA (then again shouldnt be too hard!) LOL Either way I hope it works out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ag futbol Posted February 12, 2008 Share Posted February 12, 2008 quote:Originally posted by youllneverwalkalone Keep in mind that France has a huge African immigrant population. So while you probably look at players like Anelka, Cisse, Benzema, Diarra, Diaby, Gallas and think they were all stolen from Africa, the fact remains they were all born in France. Even with the players who were repatriated, how many of them developed through French teams? Quite a lot. Their development initiatives are widely regarded as excellent, for good reason. Regarding the document: it’s a five page preview not meant to flesh out every available detail. Look at the broad concepts as opposed to the tiny details. One extra sentence relating to proper NT results and it’s fixed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Ref Posted February 12, 2008 Share Posted February 12, 2008 I take my hat off to VPjr and the initiative of the CSF. Support will grow and the CSF will become a tangible entity. I wish I have had the motivation as this group of people have when some 11 years ago I thought that what Canada needed was a Federation. I proposed my idea to a then former canadian national player, but received no support and I eventually just gave up. I am very surprised reading the above 3 pages of posts the amount of negativity about the CSF. I always thought that the generalized opinion of posters was a condemnation of the CSA, an advocation for its replacement and/or restructuring. So why can't we give the CSF tacit support and view the big picture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mpenza Posted February 12, 2008 Share Posted February 12, 2008 I see one problem. I read the mass mailing that was sent yesterday and one thing bugged me right off the bat. There's a list of names, but no background info on the people who take part in this... That kinda doesn't help selling the project now does it? Step one would've been to tell us who you are and why you think you are qualified to do a better job than the CSA. It looks more like a petition than a federation... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kmacphee Posted February 12, 2008 Share Posted February 12, 2008 VPjr, Looks like your team is putting a great deal of time and effort into moving this forward. There is one aspect I see lacking (abeit at this very early stage). I would like to see some type of priority placed on separating the Senior National teams from the "amateur" component of the national body. What changes would you like to see in terms of National team Funding/Marketing/Training. How can we ensure that we make our National Teams a)Profitable and b)Enviable? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivan Posted February 12, 2008 Share Posted February 12, 2008 VPjr, we know who you are, as well as Bob and Peter. Can you tell us a bit about the other 3? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vpsoccer Posted February 12, 2008 Share Posted February 12, 2008 I think the fans here have to take a broader picture of where strong national teams come from. The problem with the national teams comes all the way from the roots. It cannot be fixed at the national team level. If there was nothing wrong with youth soccer, then Hargreaves and deGuzman might have been selected for higher development potential at some point in time and would not have felt forced to move to Europe on their own. If there was nothing wrong with youth soccer then more clubs would have worked out plans for youth players to transition to adult play, and particularly at the higher levels of play (which in Canada is roughly university level players). Of course I rant on about that stuff because my club has a development program, tries to make a good path for youth players (men and women) to move to adult, and so on. It is not hard, and any other could do it if they wanted to. The CSA system does not work well at all levels, and those who think the MNT can be fixed from above, or in isolation, must think that all the Hargreaves's and deGuzman's of the future will develop in Europe and then come back to play here because they like maple syrup and beaver tails. Anyone for some real strong coffee? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpg75 Posted February 12, 2008 Share Posted February 12, 2008 quote:Originally posted by youllneverwalkalone And please, give me a break, the French have robbbed Africa of many of their great players. That is not development, it's the continuation of a cultural genocide which started when they raped and pillaged those nations in the first place. The French are ten times worse than the Dutch for stealing talented youngster but, and this is the key point, are able to do so because they have a highly developed professional infrastructure which Canada will never have. No amount of policy documents or letters to the editor are gonna change that. Get your facts straight ya ignorant putz. Most of the non-white players on the French NT were born and raised in France and were taught to play the way they do by the French system. It's not like the FFF is hopping on their pirate ship and kidnapping fully grown men who are already full-fledged professionals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
youllneverwalkalone Posted February 12, 2008 Share Posted February 12, 2008 quote:Originally posted by ag futbol Evra (Senegal), Viera (Senegal), Makelele (Congo), Boumsong (Cameroon), Desailly (Ghana). Then there's the Caribbean: Thuram (Guadeloupe) and Maluoda (Guiana). For the record, I fully agree that it is the French infrastructure that made these guys into great players. However, we need to make a distinction between amateur infrastructure and professional infrastructure. Henry, Zidane, Gallas all grew up in poverty and played the game as children with little to no organization until they entered the professional system. France is "blessed" with African immigrants living in subhuman poverty where there is nothing to do other than to play football (or join gangs). It's a silver lining in an otherwise utterly bleak life. So don't tell me that we can take some French policy document and apply it to Canada. It's completely apples and oranges. We will never have their professional infrastructure and that's what gets the results. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squid2 Posted February 12, 2008 Share Posted February 12, 2008 The Deloitte & Touche study: http://www.canadiansoccerfederation.ca/D&T.pdf Very interesting reading, if you care... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
youllneverwalkalone Posted February 12, 2008 Share Posted February 12, 2008 quote:Originally posted by jpg75 Get your facts straight ya ignorant putz. Most of the non-white players on the French NT were born and raised in France and were taught to play the way they do by the French system. It's not like the FFF is hopping on their pirate ship and kidnapping fully grown men who are already full-fledged professionals. See post above. Apologize for the name calling or you will regret it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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