Match Thread: August 26, 2023 - HFX Wanderers v Valour

[Big_M]

this heavy rain and 0-3 loss might be a sign to clean out...season over and could even finish last...bye bye dos santos...got more than enough time and the team is just going lower and lower with him

[Soccerpro2]

35 minutes ago, jonovision said:

What a stupid team. I've wasted so much time on this nonsense in 2023.

I gave up caring about a month ago.

I think Valour are going to lose a lot of fans who won’t return next year. I’m one of them.

[jonovision]

Frankly I don't think a road game loss, even a bad one, moves the needle. But there have been enough performances like this at home to turn people away.

I don't think kicking dos Santos to the curb solves anything but he can't stay on.

[Lurker]

Couldn’t make that one, I felt guilty seeing how empty it looked.  Shocking we started no U21.  We’re going to have to go all in for 1-2 games here to make up the minutes.

Jordan has been ok but I think Coimbra should just start if he’s healthy.

[grasshopper1917]

37 minutes ago, Lurker said:

Couldn’t make that one, I felt guilty seeing how empty it looked.  Shocking we started no U21.  We’re going to have to go all in for 1-2 games here to make up the minutes.

Jordan has been ok but I think Coimbra should just start if he’s healthy.

Im wondering if there isn't a *wink wink nudge nudge* the rule is not going to be strictly enforced?? In fairness I have no idea who is even running he league but i don't think its unconceivable the punishment of missing the playoffs could be pushed aside. I mean I get why the rule is in place at the same time..... 

[jonovision]

6 minutes ago, grasshopper1917 said:

Im wondering if there isn't a *wink wink nudge nudge* the rule is not going to be strictly enforced?? In fairness I have no idea who is even running he league but i don't think its unconceivable the punishment of missing the playoffs could be pushed aside. I mean I get why the rule is in place at the same time..... 

If that happens whichever team finishes 6th (or 7th as well if York also misses the cutoff) should sue the league.

[Lurker]

I think we’ve got to to get there.  It’s not optional.  Just roll ten behind the ball for  1-2 game but that’s not really what the rule is there for.  It’s about development and we probably didn’t hit the he checkmark in that regard.

Edited August 27, 2023 by Lurker

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

6 hours ago, grasshopper1917 said:

Im wondering if there isn't a *wink wink nudge nudge* the rule is not going to be strictly enforced?? ..... 

What could change the playoff race in a big way is who gets to play one of these teams when they are fielding an excessive number of U-21 players to hit 2000 minutes. Think they should have a minimum U-21 minutes number for the halfway point of the season as well so teams are forced to spread it out better.

[Copes]

11 hours ago, grasshopper1917 said:

Im wondering if there isn't a *wink wink nudge nudge* the rule is not going to be strictly enforced?? In fairness I have no idea who is even running he league but i don't think its unconceivable the punishment of missing the playoffs could be pushed aside. I mean I get why the rule is in place at the same time..... 

I doubt it. We have 7 games left and just under 900 minutes to make up. I'm thinking with Coimbra back we will see him starting... could be 400-500 minutes down the stretch from him. Geraldo gets a few starts and subs. Then if need be, once we are comfortably in a playoff position, Rushneas plays a couple of games for another 180 - 270 minutes or so. 

That has to be the plan right now. I don't know what else Patrice is thinking.

[Aird25]

7 hours ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

What could change the playoff race in a big way is who gets to play one of these teams when they are fielding an excessive number of U-21 players to hit 2000 minutes. Think they should have a minimum U-21 minutes number for the halfway point of the season as well so teams are forced to spread it out better.

Please no, let’s not add anymore rules. I would axe it all together. It’s clearly hurting the quality on the field

[shorty]

35 minutes ago, Aird25 said:

Please no, let’s not add anymore rules. I would axe it all together. It’s clearly hurting the quality on the field

While I disagree with you that the rule has hurt the quality on the field in an overall sense up to now, I do agree that the structure of the rule as a negative incentive now potentially threatens the quality in the last games of this season. Now, part of that is poor management on the part of certain clubs and their coaches, but part of it could be resolved by fiddling with the trigger without changing the nature of the sanction, which OTP is trying to get at. I don’t mind his suggestion, but I also think a positive incentive could work even better, such as making U21 minutes one of the tiebreaks, and placing it fairly high up the list. It would free up coaches to set lineups as they wish but also give a potential reward to those who believe in youth development done well. Or, do a hybrid: drop the requirement number to 1500 or 1000 and couple it with a tiebreak. 

Edited August 27, 2023 by shorty

[Aird25]

18 minutes ago, shorty said:

While I disagree with you that the rule has hurt the quality on the field in an overall sense up to now

Perhaps not for every team, but there’s no doubt at all that it has for a few, in addition to impacting the standings. 

[shorty]

9 minutes ago, Aird25 said:

Perhaps not for every team, but there’s no doubt at all that it has for a few, in addition to impacting the standings. 

If you’re referring to the two VFCs leading the U21 standings and being at the bottom of the table, I respectfully still disagree. I don’t believe those clubs are where they are because they’ve been playing de Brienne and Sanchez and Cameron and Henry and Tahid, etc. Every game I have seen for those clubs the kids are the bright spots. There are other reasons they are at the bottom of the table. 

[Aird25]

19 minutes ago, shorty said:

If you’re referring to the two VFCs leading the U21 standings and being at the bottom of the table, I respectfully still disagree. I don’t believe those clubs are where they are because they’ve been playing de Brienne and Sanchez and Cameron and Henry and Tahid, etc. Every game I have seen for those clubs the kids are the bright spots. There are other reasons they are at the bottom of the table. 

Not the example I would use, as I don’t watch either of those teams really. I follow Pacific and we’ve dropped 10-15 points already because of Gazdov, largely because he seemed to have completely lost his confidence after a couple errors. I don’t think forcing his minutes has been good for his development or confidence. Amedume and Lajeunesse are downgrades too.

York and Halifax are battling for the final playoff spot, and they can’t find minutes for their young players. That’s over half the league where an argument can easily be made that the quality has suffered. 

There are certainly a few u21 players that deserve to start games. Others that deserve minutes in the right scenarios, but I feel like this should be the managers and the individual club’s choices 

Edited August 27, 2023 by Aird25

[shorty]

I’m a PFC seasons ticket holder too, and though Gazdov has had two notable and costly howlers, I would still pick him over Baskett. The latest goal against VFC wouldn’t have even happened had Sellouf cleared the ball from deep rather than putting Amedume into trouble with a hospital pass at the top of the 18. Honestly as a PFC fan I place way more blame on our outside backs for our defensive woes. Dada-Luke for me is a way overhyped player going forward with far too much liability defensively. Vliet and Mukumbilwa are a bit better but not much, and for all his offensive skill Sellouf is Bustos 2.0 — so much promise, but avoids simple plays linking with teammates, and almost zero defensive hustle when he loses the ball. And don’t get me started on Daniels. In comparison even with the howlers I have been happy with Gazdov and Lajeunesse. Amedume has been hesitant but not a liability like KDL. 

[shorty]

1 hour ago, Aird25 said:

I feel like this should be the managers and the individual club’s choices 

One last thing: I think it always was their choice. There are rules set out from the beginning, and as a coach you know what they are and you strategize accordingly. From a league point of view, on the other hand, you step back and do what we’re doing now, which is to ask if the end goal has been accomplished and if there are any unintended side-effects. You and I disagree on whether the main goal has been achieved, but we agree that there are side effects that need addressing (it seems to me)

Edited August 27, 2023 by shorty

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

CanPL would find it significantly more difficult to sign young players if there was no U-21 rule because they don't have anything equivalent to Next Pro teams where the focus is on development if the coach's competitive decision is that the 19 year old kid consistently stays on the bench or doesn't make the game day roster.

[shorty]

I know what you're saying OTP, but to play devil's advocate -- do you think York will find it easy to sign U21s currently, despite the rule being in place?  Do you think that Forge, Cavalry and Pacific wouldn't still attract and sign U21s in the absence of the rule?  I honestly think there are so many factors that go into why a kid would sign in one place or another, but in the ranking of those factors I believe the club in question and its coaching and development philosophy will always be much higher than the league's U21 rule.

[Aird25]

1 hour ago, shorty said:

One last thing: I think it always was their choice. There are rules set out from the beginning, and as a coach you know what they are and you strategize accordingly. From a league point of view, on the other hand, you step back and do what we’re doing now, which is to ask if the end goal has been accomplished and if there are any unintended side-effects. You and I disagree on whether the main goal has been achieved, but we agree that there are side effects that need addressing (it seems to me)

They just showed a compilation pre-game of half a dozen Gazdov howlers, and I think they were being generous. Regardless, it’s also how the team plays in front of a shaky keeper. I really hope he has a steady match today. We’re in danger of falling off the pace. 

Apart from reducing the quality on the pitch, I think the main side effect of the rule is older players being forced out to make room for younger players, that may never even reach their level, to get a couple of seasons making minimum wage before being forced out by younger players themselves. Too many players still retire at a young age. This isn’t always the case, but it often is.

[Aird25]

55 minutes ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

CanPL would find it significantly more difficult to sign young players if there was no U-21 rule because they don't have anything equivalent to Next Pro teams where the focus is on development if the coach's competitive decision is that the 19 year old kid consistently stays on the bench or doesn't make the game day roster.

Don’t most teams have League 1 affiliates? I know Amedume, Lajeunesse and other young player from Pacific have played for ours

[jonovision]

15 minutes ago, Aird25 said:

They just showed a compilation pre-game of half a dozen Gazdov howlers, and I think they were being generous. Regardless, it’s also how the team plays in front of a shaky keeper. I really hope he has a steady match today. We’re in danger of falling off the pace. 

Apart from reducing the quality on the pitch, I think the main side effect of the rule is older players being forced out to make room for younger players, that may never even reach their level, to get a couple of seasons making minimum wage before being forced out by younger players themselves. Too many players still retire at a young age. This isn’t always the case, but it often is.

With the CPL, there are about 150 more jobs for Canadian soccer players than there were 5 years ago. If a 27 year old bubble player on a CPL roster loses his gig because a spot is being kept for a younger player, perhaps that's a sign. 

I can think of very few Canadian players who have retired from the CPL ranks that were major contributors on their teams.

[Aird25]

2 minutes ago, jonovision said:

With the CPL, there are about 150 more jobs for Canadian soccer players than there were 5 years ago. If a 27 year old bubble player on a CPL roster loses his gig because a spot is being kept for a younger player, perhaps that's a sign. 

I can think of very few Canadian players who have retired from the CPL ranks that were major contributors on their teams.

Continuing with the same example, Nolan Wirth and Mark Village 

[jonovision]

5 minutes ago, Aird25 said:

Continuing with the same example, Nolan Wirth and Mark Village 

Both players split starter duties in 2019 and were made surplus to requirements when Callum Irving, a much better keeper, came along. Both had several years of playing rarely or not at all before hanging it up. This is the normal trajectory of players who the game has passed by. Emil Gazdov may have taken up their spot on the bench in 2022, but he's not the reason they couldn't get minutes.

[Aird25]

4 minutes ago, jonovision said:

Both players split starter duties in 2019 and were made surplus to requirements when Callum Irving, a much better keeper, came along. Both had several years of playing rarely or not at all before hanging it up. This is the normal trajectory of players who the game has passed by. Emil Gazdov may have taken up their spot on the bench in 2022, but he's not the reason they couldn't get minutes.

They’re both better than anything we’ve seen from Gazdov. Are captain last season retired at 31

Half the players that have left Pacific to another CPL team, did so at 22

Edited August 27, 2023 by Aird25

[Cheeta]

It's tough isn't it?  You want to give the younger players a chance but you also want them to earn that opportunity.  It serves no ones best interest gifting anything to anyone. 

That said I'm not sure anyone is being gifted anything.  In a league like CPL, with it's turnover rate, can anyone afford risky investements in playing time to a player who hasn't justified it?  Maybe but I'd think that's the exception no the rule. 

Gazdov.  Yeah.  Young keepers.  Oh boy.  You know your playing with fire putting your life in their hands.  Have to say in Valourland we're sort of used to kids guarding the goal and it's been mostly pretty positive.  Two men have graduated into MLS 'keepers and our latest is growing in front of our eyes but he's got a looong way to go before he'll be leaving CPL behind him.