Match Thread: World Cup Group F - Matchday 3 - Canada v Morocco - December 1, 2022 - 6pm local time / 10am ET / 7am PT

[Copes]

So tournament is over. Morocco game is in the books. 2 goals (one OG) and no points. But first goal ever and first WC in 36 years.

I find myself disappointed with the overall result but perhaps that's because my expectations were too high. I expected at least a point, in addition to our first goal. That's what I wanted. I think i'm frustrated because I think in both the Belgium game and the Morocco game there was a point there to grab and we failed to do so. 

Moving forward I very much want Herdman to reevaluate his tactics and player deployment. I don't think we are lining up well and I think there are a number of players we aren't getting the most out of. I continue to dislike Davies in a front three. I think he greatly takes away from David's effectiveness and I think his pace at the back would be massive. I've been saying this all over the forums... he is the most valuable leftback in the world. Play him there. 

I'd rather see us play like a 5-3-2 or a 4-1-4-1 or honestly judt a simple 4-4-2. We are weak defensively and subsequently need to bolster that. And I think that sort of style will work better with the players we do have. 

Some discussion here about distribution. I agree that JD does not get the service with the NT that he does at Lille. I've always been impressed with both Estaquio and Osorio when it comes to setting things up. I just feel like with the 2-man midfield neither could really shine because they were so easy to shut down. 

Anyway. Some positive takeaways but for me we definitely underperformed (and thr xG stat seems to agree). 2026 needs to be the focus now. I can't wait to see what the next 3.5 years bring.

Edited December 2, 2022 by Copes

[clamlinguine]

6 hours ago, Copes said:

So tournament is over. Morocco game is in the books. 2 goals (one OG) and no points. But first goal ever and first WC in 36 years.

I find myself disappointed with the overall result but perhaps that's because my expectations were too high. I expected at least a point, in addition to our first goal. That's what I wanted. I think i'm frustrated because I think in both the Belgium game and the Morocco game there was a point there to grab and we failed to do so. 

Moving forward I very much want Herdman to reevaluate his tactics and player deployment. I don't think we are lining up well and I think there are a number of players we aren't getting the most out of. I continue to dislike Davies in a front three. I think he greatly takes away from David's effectiveness and I think his pace at the back would be massive. I've been saying this all over the forums... he is the most valuable leftback in the world. Play him there. 

I'd rather see us play like a 5-3-2 or a 4-1-4-1 or honestly judt a simple 4-4-2. We are weak defensively and subsequently need to bolster that. And I think that sort of style will work better with the players we do have. 

Some discussion here about distribution. I agree that JD does not get the service with the NT that he does at Lille. I've always been impressed with both Estaquio and Osorio when it comes to setting things up. I just feel like with the 2-man midfield neither could really shine because they were so easy to shut down. 

Anyway. Some positive takeaways but for me we definitely underperformed (and thr xG stat seems to agree). 2026 needs to be the focus now. I can't wait to see what the next 3.5 years bring.

Even I agree it's time for AD to play LB for us going forward, unless he starts playing forward positions on his club team. Our overall performance would have probably been better, but we may have missed some moments, like the goal and the initial domination in game 1.

[jonovision]

5 minutes ago, clamlinguine said:

Even I agree it's time for AD to play LB for us going forward, unless he starts playing forward positions on his club team. Our overall performance would have probably been better, but we may have missed some moments, like the goal and the initial domination in game 1.

Davies wasn't playing in as much of an advanced role in the first half of game 1. LWB, mostly. I think that was a big part of why we controlled play for those 45 minutes.

[Unnamed Trialist]

Final point: pleasantly suprised by the many open, no-punches-pulled critiques of our three games and the details of our losses. At One Soccer, other media, here, fans in Qatar.

Especially the willingness to go at Herdman.

But I think it is a bit naive to expect Herdman, an Englishman with limited club experience who had to find his career path in New Zealand, to be what few coaches of this profile will ever be: a skilled tactician. It was always obvious he was there for motivational reasons, or that was his skill set. 

While I don't deny he got results, and good performances, during qualifying, and there were a few notable tactical positives, it is also true that certain things were not dealt with ever.

Like getting scored on first, 6 of 14 matches in qualifying, then of NL and friendlies, half of them we were scored on first. 2/3 in Qatar. That means you are not taking your game plan into a game and imposing it you are failing at your tactical vision and then adjusting to being behind. 

He has not done the basic work to get the best of his best players.

He has not created models of play where 3 and foursomes click together and have a feel for each other, the back line and Borjan the only exception. 

His choices for players are odd and unconventional, and worse when not working, and then his subs do the same. 

He has half-hearted concepts of loyalty, giving minutes to some players who do not deserve them (Kaye, too much Hutch), and ignoring others who have not played a minute for Canada in a long time (Cornelius) or were worth a few in Qatar (Piette). 

He did not manage the three matches, seemingly having prepared for one, and very well, and left the others for the last minute.

Right now the best reason to keep Herdman is to give a useless CSA some structure, because Bontis would be lost without him. He's saving their butts, even losing this way. And much of soccer in the country, he's the glue holding everything together. But that does not mean he can read a match situation, coach a strategy, focus goals effectively, get the best out of players, adjust with skill. That is secondary.

Edited December 2, 2022 by Unnamed Trialist

[rdb9ty]

39 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Final point: pleasantly suprised by the many open, no-punches-pulled critiques of our three games and the details of our losses. At One Soccer, other media, here, fans in Qatar.

Especially the willingness to go at Herdman.

But I think it is a bit naive to expect Herdman, an Englishman with limited club experience who had to find his career path in New Zealand, to be what few coaches of this profile will ever be: a skilled tactician. It was always obvious he was there for motivational reasons, or that was his skill set. 

While I don't deny he got results, and good performances, during qualifying, and there were a few notable tactical positives, it is also true that certain things were not dealt with ever.

Like getting scored on first, 6 of 14 matches in qualifying, then of NL and friendlies, half of them we were scored on first. 2/3 in Qatar. That means you are not taking your game plan into a game and imposing it you are failing at your tactical vision and then adjusting to being behind. 

He has not done the basic work to get the best of his best players.

He has not created models of play where 3 and foursomes click together and have a feel for each other, the back line and Borjan the only exception. 

His choices for players are odd and unconventional, and worse when not working, and then his subs do the same. 

He has half-hearted concepts of loyalty, giving minutes to some players who do not deserve them (Kaye, too much Hutch), and ignoring others who have not played a minute for Canada in a long time (Cornelius) or were worth a few in Qatar (Piette). 

He did not manage the three matches, seemingly having prepared for one, and very well, and left the others for the last minute.

Right now the best reason to keep Herdman is to give a useless CSA some structure, because Bontis would be lost without him. He's saving their butts, even losing this way. And much of soccer in the country, he's the glue holding everything together. But that does not mean he can read a match situation, coach a strategy, focus goals effectively, get the best out of players, adjust with skill. That is secondary.

I think you roll the dice with Herdman and see how he does in the upcoming tournaments we play in (Gold Cup, maybe Copa if we get an invite?). If two years from now we are in a worse position than today, you drive a brinks truck to Carlo Ancelotti's house in Vancouver. I don't know if we have the resources to get him and it's probably wishful thinking, but stranger things have happened. He's said to want to coach a national team, wife is Canadian. 1+1=... Motivation only gets you so far.

Edited December 2, 2022 by rdb9ty

[kacbru]

40 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Final point: pleasantly suprised by the many open, no-punches-pulled critiques of our three games and the details of our losses. At One Soccer, other media, here, fans in Qatar.

Especially the willingness to go at Herdman.

But I think it is a bit naive to expect Herdman, an Englishman with limited club experience who had to find his career path in New Zealand, to be what few coaches of this profile will ever be: a skilled tactician. It was always obvious he was there for motivational reasons, or that was his skill set. 

While I don't deny he got results, and good performances, during qualifying, and there were a few notable tactical positives, it is also true that certain things were not dealt with ever.

Like getting scored on first, 6 of 14 matches in qualifying, then of NL and friendlies, half of them we were scored on first. 2/3 in Qatar. That means you are not taking your game plan into a game and imposing it you are failing at your tactical vision and then adjusting to being behind. 

He has not done the basic work to get the best of his best players.

He has not created models of play where 3 and foursomes click together and have a feel for each other, the back line and Borjan the only exception. 

His choices for players are odd and unconventional, and worse when not working, and then his subs do the same. 

He has half-hearted concepts of loyalty, giving minutes to some players who do not deserve them (Kaye, too much Hutch), and ignoring others who have not played a minute for Canada in a long time (Cornelius) or were worth a few in Qatar (Piette). 

He did not manage the three matches, seemingly having prepared for one, and very well, and left the others for the last minute.

Right now the best reason to keep Herdman is to give a useless CSA some structure, because Bontis would be lost without him. He's saving their butts, even losing this way. And much of soccer in the country, he's the glue holding everything together. But that does not mean he can read a match situation, coach a strategy, focus goals effectively, get the best out of players, adjust with skill. That is secondary.

Tactics are a weakness. Can we throw $ at someone with the tactical know-how to support Herdman, but does not have a need to be seen as the boss? Does such a person exist? Would Herdman accept it? 

[Unnamed Trialist]

4 hours ago, rdb9ty said:

I think you roll the dice with Herdman and see how he does in the upcoming tournaments we play in (Gold Cup, maybe Copa if we get an invite?). If two years from now we are in a worse position than today, you drive a brinks truck to Carlo Ancelotti's house in Vancouver. I don't know if we have the resources to get him and it's probably wishful thinking, but stranger things have happened. He's said to want to coach a national team, wife is Canadian. 1+1=... Motivation only gets you so far.

Just to be semi-retired coaching Canada you'd have to pay Carlo a million, I'd think. Or say 750, but then you'd need to find another 750 for his staff and the non-senior coaches. 

Last summer in the Italian press he said that Real Madrid would be his last gig and he'd retire after. More recently on Italian radio he said he'd be interested in coaching Canada, very vaguely (also mentioned how Montagliani's family is from Abruzzo).   

It'd be about 1/4 of the games he currently sits on the bench for every year.

[lamptern]

Herdsman do the recruiting, motivation, lubricant between players and CSA.

Ancelotti do the tactic, game plan and in game conducting.

Voyageurs starting a go found me champagne targeting 1 million a year to pay Ancelotti and his staff, as Bontis says CSA+CSB won’t afford it.

[Allez les Rouges]

I think what happened with Mexico (inadvisably waited until 2nd half of 3rd game to play, kinda like how they waited until the final minutes at Iceteca) and the US (thoroughly outwitted by Van Gaal) shows that CONCACAF is weak not only in terms of player quality/depth, but also in terms of coaching.

Unlike some in this thread, I think Herdman will learn even if he hasn't publicly recognized his mistakes. If something you've been doing for a long time suddenly stops working, you might need a few days too - and he'll have months to dissect every minute of the WC games. But it might be hard to assess his response to the lessons learned until Canada faces wily quality opposition in competitive games. Another reason to get into Copa.

[Bison44]

23 minutes ago, Allez les Rouges said:

I think what happened with Mexico (inadvisably waited until 2nd half of 3rd game to play, kinda like how they waited until the final minutes at Iceteca) and the US (thoroughly outwitted by Van Gaal) shows that CONCACAF is weak not only in terms of player quality/depth, but also in terms of coaching.

Thats why I like that halifax hiring of Gheisar.  Reward the guys doing the hard work, the cream of L10 get chances in CPL, CPL guys hopefully move up to MLS (Stalteri).  Bent has been an MLS assistant for years, MDS just won MLS cup, its nice to see our guys getting to the top in terms of coaching as well. 

We threw a lot of sphaghetti at the wall these first few years in CPL.  Some couldnt hack it (Gale, Brennan, Hart) but hopefully the coaching pool expands like the player pool has been.   

[Stoppage Time]

3 hours ago, Allez les Rouges said:

Unlike some in this thread, I think Herdman will learn even if he hasn't publicly recognized his mistakes. If something you've been doing for a long time suddenly stops working, you might need a few days too - and he'll have months to dissect every minute of the WC games. But it might be hard to assess his response to the lessons learned until Canada faces wily quality opposition in competitive games. Another reason to get into Copa.

I have to assume that their will be an objective debrief of the WC by the CSA, meaning Herdman's bosses.  Simple questions for each match as well as the overall approach would have to be asked.

What was the plan, John? What worked in each part of each match? How  did you adjust tactics in each game? Why? Which players worried you? What did you do about that? Which changes worked within and between games? Did you stick to them? What did not work? Did you stick with bad plans? What might have been done differently and why? What would you do again? What is the general plan for Nations League and the Gold Cup, player recruitment, scouting, friendlies, etc. etc.?