Is Our Future in Our Hands?

[yellowsweatygorilla]

8 minutes ago, Ansem said:

I think the 2.5 CCL berths will fast-track this. Those games will help the clubs and league a LOT

Yes that will help. And I really think the original CCL group stage format would've helped too. Shame it changed.

But I still would like more Canadian MLS team matchups with CPL in order to get people used to these arrangements (that's better facilitated by the Canadian Championship)

Edited November 30, 2021 by yellowsweatygorilla

[Ansem]

Just finished the Norther Futbol podcast

~47 minutes

When FIFA was in Toronto for the World Cup inspection, the future of Canadian Soccer was being discussed behind closed doors by 4 individuals

• Victor Montagliani
• Nick Bontis
• Scott Mitchell
• David Clanachan

 

No representative from the 3 MLS clubs or the league...

[Watchmen]

2 hours ago, Ansem said:

Spending are tied to revenues. CPL having a monopoly in Canada with all the soccer attention on them would boost revenues across the board while attracting more potential investors who wouldn't have to worry about MLS competition in the big 3 markets. If revenues increase substantially, wage and infrastructure will follow

The CFL has a monopoly on football in Canada.  The big 3 markets struggle badly.  Revenues have not increased substantially because of having these three markets.

[Ansem]

9 minutes ago, Watchmen said:

The CFL has a monopoly on football in Canada.  The big 3 markets struggle badly.  Revenues have not increased substantially because of having these three markets.

The question is... what would be the CFL without them?

[Watchmen]

2 hours ago, Ansem said:

You're also right that they need to be "close" / comparable - not necessarily equals which is IMPOSSIBLE. Both leagues plays by totally different sets of rules. If CPL can become consistently the 3rd best league in the region by then, it will be worth exploring that.

I feel like this "close/comparable" comparison really doesn't get scrutinized enough, as if it's something that will easily happen soon.  The Whitecaps have been trash and deservedly lost to both Calgary and Pacific. But the USL Whitecaps and Impact both beat TFC and nobody is going to make the argument that USL and MLS are "close". The gap between MLS and CPL from a pure salary situation is enormous - the lowest paid players in MLS are ahead of the best paid in CPL, and there's nothing to indicate that gap will close anytime soon.  There's actually a better chance that this gap increases, in much the same way that the NFL continues to pull away from the CFL.

And here's the thing - it doesn't matter.  MLS and CPL essentially have different goals and objectives. MLS is attempting to build one of the best leagues in the world (we won't discuss how realistic that is, but we know that's the goal) and hoping that's enough to raise the level of American talent. CPL is attempting to build a league that's strong enough to survive while churning out more talent and moving it on to higher leagues.  Both objectives are fine, and honestly I think having teams in both leagues is the best solution. It in theory gives the CPL a bit more parity (smaller markets aren't theoretically at quite the same disadvantage vs the big 3 if they were in the league) while also giving us easy access to a bigger league pushing to be even bigger.

The CPL + MLS is just win-win for Canada, even if people don't want to admit it.

[narduch]

11 minutes ago, Watchmen said:

The CFL has a monopoly on football in Canada.  The big 3 markets struggle badly.  Revenues have not increased substantially because of having these three markets.

This is an interesting comparison. I think the CFL suffers because we have the behemoth NFL to the south of us.

But soccer is different. I bet if you removed the 3 Canadian clubs from MLS barely anyone in Canada would care about MLS. Someone that wants to watch a better league would watch EPL or other Euro leagues 

 

 

[Watchmen]

2 minutes ago, Ansem said:

The question is... what would be the CFL without them?

Setting aside being short on teams (which isn't a problem for the CPL right now), they'd probably be even stronger. They wouldn't have additional markets losing major money each year.  And I say all this as someone who likes the CFL and lives in a big 3 market.

[rkomar]

I think those assuming that the tens of thousands going to TFC games would just switch over to the CPL are dreaming.  Toronto is a huge market with plenty of possible fans to go around.  I don't think you can blame TFC for the poor attendance at the York games.  People in Toronto are just not interested in CPL level games.  If you think you can force them toward CPL games by banishing the MLS you're crazy.  They just won't go to any games at all.

I think pulling out of the MLS would be cutting off your nose to spite your face.  The Americans would hardly notice, and our soccer environment would be deprived of all that lovely, lovely revenue and game competition coming from that big market.  I hope we never throw away all our current advantages out of spite.

[Watchmen]

1 minute ago, narduch said:

This is an interesting comparison. I think the CFL suffers because we have the behemoth NFL to the south of us.

But soccer is different. I bet if you removed the 3 Canadian clubs from MLS barely anyone in Canada would care about MLS. Someone that wants to watch a better league would watch EPL or other Euro leagues 

 

 

The Whitecaps and Impact were consistently top of the USL, and they both had enormous leaps in attendance when they moved up to MLS (as did Toronto with a lesser USL product). There's just people out there who will only support the "best available", and in North America that means MLS.  And yes, there's also a ton of people who will still only watch EPL/Euro leagues rather than MLS or CPL because they only want the best.

[Ansem]

1 minute ago, Watchmen said:

Setting aside being short on teams (which isn't a problem for the CPL right now), they'd probably be even stronger. They wouldn't have additional markets losing major money each year.  And I say all this as someone who likes the CFL and lives in a big 3 market.

Without those 3 cities which are the heart of the media in this country, they'd have way less lucrative tv and sponsorship revenues without them. That's an undeniable fact

[SoccMan]

6 minutes ago, rkomar said:

I think those assuming that the tens of thousands going to TFC games would just switch over to the CPL are dreaming.  Toronto is a huge market with plenty of possible fans to go around.  I don't think you can blame TFC for the poor attendance at the York games.  People in Toronto are just not interested in CPL level games.  If you think you can force them toward CPL games by banishing the MLS you're crazy.  They just won't go to any games at all.

I think pulling out of the MLS would be cutting off your nose to spite your face.  The Americans would hardly notice, and our soccer environment would be deprived of all that lovely, lovely revenue and game competition coming from that big market.  I hope we never throw away all our current advantages out of spite.

Thank you could you hit the nail on the head bingo !

[Watchmen]

3 minutes ago, Ansem said:

Without those 3 cities which are the heart of the media in this country, they'd have way less lucrative tv and sponsorship revenues without them. That's an undeniable fact

The TV ratings are completely driven by the prairies, where the Roughriders are in the top 5 biggest merchandizing sports teams in the country. That's just fact.

[SoccMan]

12 minutes ago, narduch said:

This is an interesting comparison. I think the CFL suffers because we have the behemoth NFL to the south of us.

But soccer is different. I bet if you removed the 3 Canadian clubs from MLS barely anyone in Canada would care about MLS. Someone that wants to watch a better league would watch EPL or other Euro leagues 

 

 

If it ain’t broke don’t fix it that’s all I have to say about this whole conversation.

[Ansem]

6 minutes ago, SoccMan said:

If it ain’t broke don’t fix it that’s all I have to say about this whole conversation.

I'd agree with the "ain't broke" part if the roster rules were reciprocal - than the whole convo would be a none issue 

[Ansem]

9 minutes ago, Watchmen said:

The TV ratings are completely driven by the prairies, where the Roughriders are in the top 5 biggest merchandizing sports teams in the country. That's just fact.

Losing the Quebec TV ratings would still be quite significant and huge hit - not just for TV. That's also just fact

https://3downnation.com/2021/11/29/2021-wild-west-semi-final-between-stamps-and-riders-draws-over-1-million-viewers-on-tsn/

[Ansem]

21 minutes ago, Watchmen said:

The Whitecaps and Impact were consistently top of the USL, and they both had enormous leaps in attendance when they moved up to MLS (as did Toronto with a lesser USL product). There's just people out there who will only support the "best available", and in North America that means MLS.  And yes, there's also a ton of people who will still only watch EPL/Euro leagues rather than MLS or CPL because they only want the best.

Liga MX says "hello" 😉

[Ansem]

24 minutes ago, rkomar said:

I think those assuming that the tens of thousands going to TFC games would just switch over to the CPL are dreaming.  Toronto is a huge market with plenty of possible fans to go around.  I don't think you can blame TFC for the poor attendance at the York games.

Of course not, you have to earn your following - Something Joey Saputo knows something about. I actually blame York for their poor attendance

 

26 minutes ago, rkomar said:

People in Toronto are just not interested in CPL level games. 

How could they? I live in North York and to my greatest frustration, I'd say 95% of the borough don't even know they exist - let alone Toronto. Their launch and identity crisis should be taught in school on what "not" to do. Rebranding after 1 season was a dead give away.

Take something as niche as Rugby and they could pull those numbers with everything else going on in this city.

The "level of play" narrative is a huge oversimplification.

 

31 minutes ago, rkomar said:

If you think you can force them toward CPL games by banishing the MLS you're crazy.  They just won't go to any games at all.

York United? Maybe. Swap the club an it's organization with what the Wanderers has done in Halifax and results could have been very different. Marketing, presentation, identity etc... matters can't be minimize. USL vs MLS presentation was/is night and day. (someone had brought that comparison)

 

33 minutes ago, rkomar said:

I think pulling out of the MLS would be cutting off your nose to spite your face.  The Americans would hardly notice, and our soccer environment would be deprived of all that lovely, lovely revenue and game competition coming from that big market.  I hope we never throw away all our current advantages out of spite.

No one else in Canada or around the world could run a pro soccer club in the 3 major cities? That's a bit of a stretch don't you think? I mean Ottawa attracted Atletico, what would Montreal, Toronto and Vancouver attract if MLS wasn't around?

Anyways this is a "what if" thread where the consensus by pretty much everyone is "not now"

[rkomar]

27 minutes ago, Ansem said:

...

Anyways this is a "what if" thread where the consensus by pretty much everyone is "not now"

You sound reasonable in your arguments, especially the "not now" part.  I was responding more to those who are unreasonable in their arguments.  The ones who don't care what harm is done just as long as the MLS is kicked out of the country, and where being in charge trumps everything else.

[Watchmen]

1 hour ago, Ansem said:

Liga MX says "hello" 😉

Fair enough, though I meant "Northern North America". Liga MX is definitely the superior league, even if MLS occasionally pulls off an upset.

[-Hammer-]

On 11/30/2021 at 1:45 AM, Shway said:

I’m obviously no journalist. I’ve been thinking a lot about this lately, and just wanted to started a discussion based on why I think it’s important that the MLS clubs join the CPL at some point. 

What do you think?

Are Canadians so engraved into American culture that it’s more prestigious to play Charlotte, Columbus, Cincinnati over the likes of Calgary, Edmonton, or Manitoba?

As far as why I think it's important, to me it's also how it happens. It's because we've become more of a soccer nation then the US and the prestige of playing there is gone. MLS is certainly bigger and better then the CanPL right now, of that there can be little debate. 

However, there are substantial problems with how MLS as a whole operates, which is why it's not, nor is it likely to ever be one of the top leagues of the world. The lack of promotion and relegation to put the fire under club management to perform or lose money, the single entity design inherently means the league will always been about money as a whole, not competition of a club and certainly not about the money flowing down to smaller clubs to encourage development and consume every nook and cranny of the sports zeitgeist of where you can have a team anywhere.

This league is 3 years old, and the quality of play is already at the level of the bottom of MLS which has had decades to operate, with a fraction of the infrastructure the US has in the NCAA. I have no doubt in my mind, if we can win over the people of Canada over to the game, and we avoid the more egregious institutional tomfoolery (such as not preparing for a players union, not implementing Pro/Rel, ignoring viable markets that while small, still become the only game in town and not loosening the salary cap and owner suicide prevention rules that are needed while the league is young) I fully think we can eclipse the MLS. 

Those are the real issues though, some of them you hope the league to address sooner rather then later, some you understand not until time passes and the league grows, some of them you can't help but think you may need new brass to understand it, but that's another discussion. Fundamentally, until we get there, I don't want to see an attempt to merge them right now.  It will only breed resentment for the game.

The MLS teams are only jumping ship one way, and for two reasons. That they see there is more potential money in a CanPL team and they are either greedy and see a windfall is to be had by selling their MLS franchise to a new owner down south but keeping their branding, or because no one is looking to buy an MLS team in the big markets without the option to move and an owner downsizes out of desperation.

Canada Soccer is never going to force the issue, unlike the Fury, the MLS has lawyers with enough of a war chest to get away with suing Canada Soccer and FIFA would tell them to back off if things got serious because they don't want courts to ever set any kind of precedent concerning their business and of course, said money.

When CanPL teams are thrashing MLS clubs in the V.Cup that is when this discussion will be serious. Until then, well...the big markets want to be big, and they rightly see the US as bigger then their own country. That truth might sting, but that's the way it is.

Edited December 1, 2021 by -Hammer-
Grammar and Typos

[Cheeta]

Boy is this a tricky one.

MLS was, maybe is, a necessary evil in Canada.  Not a flattering turn of phrase but I'll stand by it.  Some others on here have expressed as much as the same sentiment.  I don't think the merits of MLS in Canada, to this point, are realistically up for debate.  On the whole I'd say they tilt positive but "tilt" isn't exactly what gets you a gold star from your Home Room teacher is it?  And to my mind there's the rub.  A most Canadian perception, the sense of frustating under achievement.  

Without getting into a 10,000 word explanation I'm just going to write if MLS withdrew from Canada because outside influences encouraged that it would trouble me not.  Maybe that's naive of me but I don't think so.  It's not 2005 anymore.  

 

 

 

   

[Shway]

11 hours ago, rkomar said:

I think those assuming that the tens of thousands going to TFC games would just switch over to the CPL are dreaming.  Toronto is a huge market with plenty of possible fans to go around.  I don't think you can blame TFC for the poor attendance at the York games.  People in Toronto are just not interested in CPL level games.  If you think you can force them toward CPL games by banishing the MLS you're crazy.  They just won't go to any games at all.

I think pulling out of the MLS would be cutting off your nose to spite your face.  The Americans would hardly notice, and our soccer environment would be deprived of all that lovely, lovely revenue and game competition coming from that big market.  I hope we never throw away all our current advantages out of spite.

You can’t compare York and TFC…

If York created/developed that stadium they planned to from onset. There product would be comparable.

Except they play at York University Stadium which was just recently retrofitted, however still not ideal for a “professional environment”.

My issue with York is that they haven’t created a product that you could say that clearly differentiates from Vaughan SC in L1O - and that’s why people in Toronto aren’t interested in York. They also haven’t created a product worthy of seeing.

[Shway]

I also think there’s a misconception that the average people follow MLS. 

I went to the TFC v Pacific game, and a friend of mine who has grown up playing/watching soccer said to me “Pacific where are they from in MLS”.

It’s the product and competition levels that people from the GTA care about. I don’t think average person knows the never ending rule changing, forever expanding league that is MLS.  (I’m always explaining to my old brother, who we both have had  season tickets, and who’s the reason why I’m soccer obsessed)

And if people are really concerned about playing the big cities, that’s where it happens in the CCL. But the reality with that in the current state is that  Canadian MLS teams will have an even harder chance at qualifying for CCL vs CPL teams. 

Do we not want our best teams on display?

I get figuring out the financial part, but the competition, perception of the defection, and hinderance of development points of the game I can’t agree with.

If it’s not broken don’t fix it. But who’s to say  we’re not living in the broken pyramid and we’re (CSA) not at liberty to fix it. 

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

56 minutes ago, Shway said:

…If York created/developed that stadium they planned to from onset...

The Blizzard tried to make the CSL work at Varsity Stadium in 1987 in the returning to a Canadian domestic league scenario that you are advocating but only drew a small fraction of the crowds they had three years earlier at the same stadium in the NASL.

I'd question whether York 9/United would even have drawn as well if they had built that stadium out in the boonies because York Lions for all its flaws is at a prime location in TTC and highway access terms.

Edited December 1, 2021 by Ozzie_the_parrot

[Shway]

19 minutes ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

The Blizzard tried to make the CSL work at Varsity Stadium in 1987 in the returning to a Canadian domestic league scenario that you are advocating but only drew a small fraction of the crowds they had three years earlier at the same stadium in the NASL.

I'd question whether York 9/United would even have drawn as well if they had built that stadium out in the boonies because York Lions for all its flaws is at a prime location in TTC and highway access terms.

Prime location for University students.

Nobody, travels North - more specifically to that area unless they are going back home, or going to school. There isn’t much entertainment, and the area is in constant construction even taking transportation.

The York United rebranding is good. However I still think they should market their attention to being a York Region team. Instead of this half bit of trying to be the CPLs Toronto team. 

Accessibility from all ends makes you a Toronto team. I live in the east, and I would rather take the 404 to Steeles and drive alllll the way up, than to go into the shit show that is by the 400.