Is Our Future in Our Hands?

[Ftduck]

I would very much appreciate if some one could point out any fallacy in my argument regarding this league's success being in our own hands. I say this because I have an enormous bias toward the promotion/relegation European model. So much so that I basically find the franchise model that dominates the American, Canadian, and for the time being, Mexican markets utterly boring. Yes the couple of months leading up to playoffs and the playoffs itself are exciting, but once it's done, rinse and repeat. The advantage MLS has is the 3 competitions it takes part in every year; domestic, domestic open cup, and Concacaf. I think this advantage needs to be heavily advertised by the CPL. 

As it stands right now, CPL fans get three competitions to look forward to every year. How do you push this, as a superior viewing experience, to your average North American franchise team fan. How many times have I tried to explain to a Leafs fan the complexity of the European model just to watch their eyes glaze over and tell me it's stupid?!? "What?!? My team could be relagated to a lower division? Fuck that!" That's the usual response. 

Now where I have had success in this conversation is when I explain that it is possible, on paper, even though highly unlikely,  that my little soccer team could play the likes of Real Madrid in a meaningful competitive match. In theory it's possible. I cant help but think this is the one advantage CPL has over every other league in Canada and should be exploited. 

Now if we can imagine a CPL with 12 - 16 teams, drawing 10 000 plus to each team, and pro/rel just around the corner, would the big 3 Canadian MLS teams joining even matter?

 

 

[rkomar]

The cost of land is a huge issue in the largest markets.  Dream locations would require a huge initial investment by somebody.  Would that investment be repaid?  I think you're kind of stuck with what's available in terms of stadiums.

[Ruffian]

I don't think the 3 MLS teams can come to CPL until the continental competition becomes much larger. If the MLS teams were able to get a large amount of revenues for competing in the Champions League and the Champions League was seen as a more important competition by the regular Canadian fan and drew large crowds then the top teams in Canada could potentially maintain revenues comparable to what MLS teams have at the moment.

Playing clubs like Club America and Tigres could potentially draw in more fans if soccer knowledge increased in the general Canadian soccer fan.

[ted]

3 hours ago, Shway said:

I went to the TFC v Pacific game, and a friend of mine who has grown up playing/watching soccer said to me “Pacific where are they from in MLS”.

Minor digression on awareness: I was playing PU soccer yesterday and most everyone knows I babble about PFC every chance I get. Someone was talking about playing on Sunday afternoons and I said, "Not this Sunday, not during the final, right?" in a joking tone. This excellent rec player, around 30-ish I'd guess, not only did not know the CanPL final was this Sunday, didn't know what the CanPL was and didn't know we had a professional team in this city. I was literally gobsmacked.

To come back to the point, simple awareness of the CanPL and it's constituent teams existence is driven by mainstream sports media. Having Vancouver, Toronto and  Montreal in the league is essential for long-term success. The only argument IMO is over WHEN they are brought in to the fold, not IF.

I believe the right time is at the next renewal of the waiver to play in a foreign league.

[Shway]

2 hours ago, Ftduck said:

Now if we can imagine a CPL with 12 - 16 teams, drawing 10 000 plus to each team, and pro/rel just around the corner, would the big 3 Canadian MLS teams joining even matter?

 I sadly think this only happens after the big 3 teams are in...not after. And it's @ted that puts the argument on the button. 

Media awareness which equals the investment.

[SoccMan]

1 hour ago, ted said:

Minor digression on awareness: I was playing PU soccer yesterday and most everyone knows I babble about PFC every chance I get. Someone was talking about playing on Sunday afternoons and I said, "Not this Sunday, not during the final, right?" in a joking tone. This excellent rec player, around 30-ish I'd guess, not only did not know the CanPL final was this Sunday, didn't know what the CanPL was and didn't know we had a professional team in this city. I was literally gobsmacked.

To come back to the point, simple awareness of the CanPL and it's constituent teams existence is driven by mainstream sports media. Having Vancouver, Toronto and  Montreal in the league is essential for long-term success. The only argument IMO is over WHEN they are brought in to the fold, not IF.

I believe the right time is at the next renewal of the waiver to play in a foreign league.

Can’t wait  until the Raptors join the CEBL just a matter of time or the Jays join a Canadian Baseball League or when are the 7 NHL teams joining a new Canadian hockey league you know the biggest sport in this country that plays in basically an American league. 

[Bison44]

1 hour ago, ted said:

To come back to the point, simple awareness of the CanPL and it's constituent teams existence is driven by mainstream sports media. Having Vancouver, Toronto and  Montreal in the league is essential for long-term success. The only argument IMO is over WHEN they are brought in to the fold, not IF.

I believe the right time is at the next renewal of the waiver to play in a foreign league.

This is what pisses me off so much about TSN.  It is still very hit and miss with anything involving CPL. Just a quick look and there was nothing about who was in the CPL finals or when they were.  They only mention CPL in relation to V-cup games vs MLS and CONCACAF league games.  Sportsnet had a story about who won the semis, who was in the final etc etc.  We dont need to stand for this eh? We need to complain.....we want to see at least some CPL highlights on TSN.  

 

 

[Ansem]

1 minute ago, SoccMan said:

Can’t wait  until the Raptors join the CEBL just a matter of time or the Jays join a Canadian Baseball League

They aren't "global" sports with a FIFA-like organization. The American league is bigger than their international entity "regulating" (huge stretch) the sport. Soccer is unique therefore comparisons are foolish

 

2 minutes ago, SoccMan said:

or when are the 7 NHL teams joining a new Canadian hockey league you know the biggest sport in this country that plays in basically an American league. 

NHL was founded in 1917 in Montreal and was a Canadian league until the Americans took it over with time. This is a classic case of "the north feeding the south". Canadian dollars are paying/subsidizing clubs in the middle of the desert at our own expand (Quebec City? Saskatchewan? Southern Ontario? Atlantic Canada?)

[Shway]

18 minutes ago, SoccMan said:

Can’t wait  until the Raptors join the CEBL just a matter of time or the Jays join a Canadian Baseball League or when are the 7 NHL teams joining a new Canadian hockey league you know the biggest sport in this country that plays in basically an American league. 

Better to have a conversation vs being cynical.
However since you're only legitimate comparison was the NHL. In which I hate that we can't have more control of what teams are in it considering that the Canadians fund, and make up nearly 50% of the entire leagues roster.
I too wonder when Canada will have more teams in the nations top division. Hamilton, Quebec City, Halifax, London are all deserving of  an NHL Hockey team. 

There isn't another professional league that isn't solely a youth league in Canada.

I'm 100% sure those markets could do better than Pheonix, Miami. 

@Ansem got it spot on.

Edited December 1, 2021 by Shway

[Shway]

@SoccMan
Oh yea and the CPL to MLS is farrrrrrrrrr closer to eachother than the CEBL is to the NBA - in every aspect. So again a horrible comparison. 

I actually like what the CEBL is doing. 

Also the Toronto Raptors who have 3 Canadians on their roster, are governed by the national basketball association. A complete and separate association that doesn't have ties to FIBA. 

The Canadian MLS teams, which roughly have an average of 10 Canadians on their roster. Are governed by the MLS but sanctioned through the CSA, which is an affiliated member of Concacaf and FIFA.

But what was your point again? 

[Cblake]

21 hours ago, narduch said:

I personally think MLS is too big now.

The sweet spot for a soccer league is 18-20 teams.

Fans have zero knowledge of the opponents from the other conferences. You can go years without seeing some teams in person. 

In my mind set the east and west conferences could really be viewed as two separate leagues. It makes sense considering the geography. of North America. Look at country like England, its an eight hour drive from top to bottom. 

[Watchmen]

People are going to be really mad on here when the CSA sanctions the 3 MLS teams to continue in that league.

[Ansem]

1 hour ago, Watchmen said:

People are going to be really mad on here when the CSA sanctions the 3 MLS teams to continue in that league.

That`s not up to the CSA - That`s up to CONCACAF and possibly Montagliani if he`s still there... we all know what will be his preference

[Watchmen]

People are going to be really mad on here when CONCACAF sanctions the 3 MLS teams to continue in that league.

[Ansem]

38 minutes ago, Watchmen said:

People are going to be really mad on here when CONCACAF sanctions the 3 MLS teams to continue in that league.

That will be interesting as the clubs will have to make the case that they should be exempted. Nothing prevents them from staying in MLS but being allowed to do so while being based in Canada when another domestic league already exists will be very tough to justify as this is against the rule.

The Fury did set a big precedent as they couldn't make the case either while CPL hadn't even kicked a ball yet... In that perspective, it should have been easy for them to make a case. 😬

Edited December 1, 2021 by Ansem

[Watchmen]

30 minutes ago, Ansem said:

That will be interesting as the clubs will have to make the case that they should be exempted. Nothing prevents them from staying in MLS but being allowed to do so while being based in Canada when another domestic league already exists will be very tough to justify as this is against the rule.

The Fury did set a big precedent as they couldn't make the case either while CPL hadn't even kicked a ball yet... In that perspective, it should have been easy for them to make a case. 😬

I have sited numerous cases of teams being exempt from competing in a domestic league, and each time you reject them because they don't fit your narrative.

You're entire case hinges on the CPL being at a comparable level to MLS. If it isn't, the exemption will be extended. 

[Ansem]

8 minutes ago, Watchmen said:

I have sited numerous cases of teams being exempt from competing in a domestic league, and each time you reject them because they don't fit your narrative.

You're entire case hinges on the CPL being at a comparable level to MLS. If it isn't, the exemption will be extended. 

Mine's much closer to home with the Fury not being able to make their case at the time of renewal. The waiver for the 3 MLS clubs is the only reason why they weren't part of that process

[-Hammer-]

4 hours ago, Bison44 said:

This is what pisses me off so much about TSN.  It is still very hit and miss with anything involving CPL. Just a quick look and there was nothing about who was in the CPL finals or when they were.  They only mention CPL in relation to V-cup games vs MLS and CONCACAF league games.  Sportsnet had a story about who won the semis, who was in the final etc etc.  We dont need to stand for this eh? We need to complain.....we want to see at least some CPL highlights on TSN.  

This ticks me off too, but to be honest, every time there is a big event in the CanPL, that so few fans called them out on it and tag them in tweets angers me, and that when someone like CBC Sports tweets out stuff, how few get behind them.
 

13 minutes ago, Watchmen said:

I have sited numerous cases of teams being exempt from competing in a domestic league, and each time you reject them because they don't fit your narrative.

You're entire case hinges on the CPL being at a comparable level to MLS. If it isn't, the exemption will be extended. 

Here's the thing, "Comparable Level" has never been clarified as to what exactly that means. Does it mean purely the level of play on the pitch? Is it the amount of money the teams operate with day to day? Is it their revenue? It it the league is offering comparable benefits to the current locale? Is it the size of their facilities? It's always a subjective measure.


Frankly I think what the CanPL need to do is really advertise some of the unique aspects of the sport compared to the traditional North American ones. Things like international play, supporters sections and hopefully one day, Pro/Rel.

[Ansem]

Most leagues have obvious disparities between top to mid to bottom table.

The whole "comparable" is just a story some tell themselves to believe that FIFA actually care about that.

Parity is the exception, not the norm. Too many are too conditioned to North American "standards" for which FIFA cares very little.

Edited December 1, 2021 by Ansem

[Ansem]

39 minutes ago, Watchmen said:

the exemption will be extended. 

That's actually the least probable outcome

If I'm MLS, I'd want those 3 grandfathered perpetually - they either get their sanction denied or they are in forever...which will be a MASSIVE ask from even the CSA.

We all agree that short term, status quo makes sense but in 25 years? That's crazy.

The temporary waiver is the best case scenario for all parties at this time

[red card]

4 hours ago, Bison44 said:

This is what pisses me off so much about TSN.  It is still very hit and miss with anything involving CPL. Just a quick look and there was nothing about who was in the CPL finals or when they were.  They only mention CPL in relation to V-cup games vs MLS and CONCACAF league games.  Sportsnet had a story about who won the semis, who was in the final etc etc.  We dont need to stand for this eh? We need to complain.....we want to see at least some CPL highlights on TSN.  

 

 

Getting mentioned on sports network tv is only catering to the over 40 crowd - with the core being over 55. Prime time scripted tv is already there in Canada as it is 80%+ composed of over 55. 

For sports, the average viewer watching golf, tennis, figure skating, Olympics, horse racing, rodeo, NASCAR, MLB & NFL/CFL/college is over 50. Soccer hovers around 40.

So, in a generation, as the baby boomers die off, there won't be that many watching sports on linear paid tv. 

[Watchmen]

42 minutes ago, Ansem said:

That's actually the least probable outcome

If I'm MLS, I'd want those 3 grandfathered perpetually.

Fair, though I think that's essentially what I assumed they'd be doing.

42 minutes ago, Ansem said:

We all agree that short term, status quo makes sense but in 25 years? That's crazy.

If the league is surviving and thriving in 25 years, then there's no reason for the MLS teams to move because the league will have gotten there without them. If it isn't, then we've still got 3 active teams in a high league.

[Bison44]

2 hours ago, red card said:

Getting mentioned on sports network tv is only catering to the over 40 crowd - with the core being over 55. Prime time scripted tv is already there in Canada as it is 80%+ composed of over 55. 

For sports, the average viewer watching golf, tennis, figure skating, Olympics, horse racing, rodeo, NASCAR, MLB & NFL/CFL/college is over 50. Soccer hovers around 40.

So, in a generation, as the baby boomers die off, there won't be that many watching sports on linear paid tv. 

Well since you seem to know a lot about this, just fill in the blanks for me.  Replace network tv, with gubi, or flubi, ruki prime, ruki prime plus or grubi plus/prime, whatever streaming app the "cool kids" are catching all their soccer action on.  Using Ted's example, how can Teds buddies not even know CPL exists.  Where does the league need to go or do to get to the soccer fans who should know canada has its own league but are currently oblivious to us.        

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

12 hours ago, SoccMan said:

Can’t wait  until the Raptors join the CEBL just a matter of time or the Jays join a Canadian Baseball League or when are the 7 NHL teams joining a new Canadian hockey league you know the biggest sport in this country that plays in basically an American league. 

Definitely strange that it's only soccer that always seems to have this as an ongoing issue pushed relentlessly by a vocal minority. 

[Macksam]

13 hours ago, Ansem said:

That's actually the least probable outcome

If I'm MLS, I'd want those 3 grandfathered perpetually - they either get their sanction denied or they are in forever...which will be a MASSIVE ask from even the CSA.

We all agree that short term, status quo makes sense but in 25 years? That's crazy.

The temporary waiver is the best case scenario for all parties at this time

Even if the CPL is doing well in 25 years, drawing great crowds with purpose built stadiums, which I think it will be plus or minus a few clubs, the league will not be anywhere near MLS' level which will be a top 3 league with salary caps comparable to the other big four NA sports at that point.

This also isn't a bad thing, both leagues can exist. We have seen from Halifax that you don't need MLS teams in the league to draw well. You just need to gain traction in your local market. 

Also, having three world class MLS clubs in our country is going to inspire a lot of Canadian kids in the same mold the Raptors and the "Carter effect" had for the basketball talent we now have in the nation.

Edited December 2, 2021 by Macksam