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Is Our Future in Our Hands?


Shway
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1 hour ago, Macksam said:

I was referring to what they are going to become down the line. 

The same way people are saying there's no telling what CPL will look like down the line, same applies to MLS.

Those gimmicky salary rules aren't going away and it's one of the only things they got to try and attract interest. If you take a hard look at them, they make no sense but they can't really live without them unless they get rid of the cap which isn't happening nor in their DNA.

They want Americans & their Canadians fans to believe that they will be "world class" someday, deep down they know it won't happen and no one outside the US buys it either.

Edited by Ansem
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2 hours ago, Ansem said:

The same way people are saying there's no telling what CPL will look like down the line, same applies to MLS.

Those gimmicky salary rules aren't going away and it's one of the only things they got to try and attract interest. If you take a hard look at them, they make no sense but they can't really live without them unless they get rid of the cap which isn't happening nor in their DNA.

They want Americans & their Canadians fans to believe that they will be "world class" someday, deep down they know it won't happen and no one outside the US buys it either.

There is nothing wrong with any league, be it MLS, CPL or A-League, to aspire to be world class.  It doesn't matter whether you or anyone else buys it.

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23 hours ago, Ansem said:

That`s not up to the CSA - That`s up to CONCACAF and possibly Montagliani if he`s still there... we all know what will be his preference

I guess you missed the part where the SCA specifically had to give their permission last time as well as CONCACAF and USSF. Any of those three can refuse to approve.

 

22 hours ago, Watchmen said:

People are going to be really mad on here when CONCACAF sanctions the 3 MLS teams to continue in that league.

Mad? Not really. Disappointed? For sure.

21 hours ago, Watchmen said:

You're entire case hinges on the CPL being at a comparable level to MLS. If it isn't, the exemption will be extended. 

I think you have that backwards. If the whole question hinges on competitiveness, then they will be joining CanPL ASAP. Head to head competition in the VCup did not establish total dominance by MSL teams and the progression of Forge through their competition has been a good advertisement for the CanPL within CONCACAF.

 

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14 minutes ago, ted said:

I think you have that backwards. If the whole question hinges on competitiveness, then they will be joining CanPL ASAP. Head to head competition in the VCup did not establish total dominance by MSL teams and the progression of Forge through their competition has been a good advertisement for the CanPL within CONCACAF.

Every year, lower divisions upset Premier League teams in the FA Cup. There's a debate raging on the Vancouver thread about how "1 leg playoffs are terrible because there's too many upsets". So I guess what I'm saying is that congratulations to Pacific and Cavalry are beating the Whitecaps (both wins fully deserved) and that over the course of a full season I do not think that any CPL club would be competitive in MLS. Forge has been competitive in the lower League Cup but haven't come that close to winning it, while MLS teams routinely (but certainly not always) beat that same level of competition in the Champions League.

I sometimes hate these debates because it sounds like I'm shitting on the CPL. I'm not. The league has done plenty of good. I just continue to think that the CPL vs MLS comparison is a bit pointless because the leagues aren't trying to do the same thing, and Canada is strengthened by having teams in both.

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8 minutes ago, Watchmen said:

Every year, lower divisions upset Premier League teams in the FA Cup. There's a debate raging on the Vancouver thread about how "1 leg playoffs are terrible because there's too many upsets". So I guess what I'm saying is that congratulations to Pacific and Cavalry are beating the Whitecaps (both wins fully deserved) and that over the course of a full season I do not think that any CPL club would be competitive in MLS. Forge has been competitive in the lower League Cup but haven't come that close to winning it, while MLS teams routinely (but certainly not always) beat that same level of competition in the Champions League.

I sometimes hate these debates because it sounds like I'm shitting on the CPL. I'm not. The league has done plenty of good. I just continue to think that the CPL vs MLS comparison is a bit pointless because the leagues aren't trying to do the same thing, and Canada is strengthened by having teams in both.

I think the thought is what Canadian Soccer gets from TFC, Caps, Mtl being in the MLS would all be achieved by having them in the CPL. While also also elevating the league and all the other CPL teams. You also consider that by having those teams being in the MLS it also creates a natural barrier for the CPL and its teams from gathering attention, revenue etc etc

So is it the end of the world having 3 MLS teams... no. Its a good thing

But I think net net it would be more beneficial if they all were in the CPL

Edited by SpursFlu
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18 hours ago, Watchmen said:

I sometimes hate these debates because it sounds like I'm shitting on the CPL. I'm not. The league has done plenty of good. I just continue to think that the CPL vs MLS comparison is a bit pointless because the leagues aren't trying to do the same thing, and Canada is strengthened by having teams in both.

This. 1000x over.

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19 hours ago, Watchmen said:

 I do not think that any CPL club would be competitive in MLS. Forge has been competitive in the lower League Cup but haven't come that close to winning it, while MLS teams routinely (but certainly not always) beat that same level of competition in the Champions League.

 

I do agree it would be tough for Forge or any other team to compete in a full MLS season due to lack of depth and DP's however to say Forge weren't close to winning Concacaf League I can't agree with after they went out in the semi final on away goals to a team heavily favoured to win it! I might also add the Forge eliminated Club Atletico Independiente de la Chorrera of Panama along the way, this team thrashed TFC just 2 years ago!

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2 hours ago, gator said:

I do agree it would be tough for Forge or any other team to compete in a full MLS season due to lack of depth and DP's however to say Forge weren't close to winning Concacaf League I can't agree with after they went out in the semi final on away goals to a team heavily favoured to win it! I might also add the Forge eliminated Club Atletico Independiente de la Chorrera of Panama along the way, this team thrashed TFC just 2 years ago!

If Forge was in MLS "as is" - it would be tough but I still doubt they finish dead last.

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4 hours ago, Ansem said:

If Forge was in MLS "as is" - it would be tough but I still doubt they finish dead last.

It's a silly comment to start with. If Forge was in MLS they would have a large budget, different roster, etc and of course this is not what is being discussed.

What we are (or I thought we are) discussing, is the concept that the three MLS teams are so far "above" the CanPL that it makes no competitive sense to force them to switch leagues and that somehow our development as soccer nation will therefore suffer if it happens. I happen to think that bringing the MLS teams into the CanPL improves our development long-term for the reasons we have been arguing for 20+ years on this forum and it's predecessors. I also accept that the reality is $$ talks and the chances of the CSA developing a backbone are low to non-existent.

Anyway, looking forward to the Microwave Plate Final on Sunday and a chance for a team other than Forge to play in CONCACAF competition. :)

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On 12/1/2021 at 8:02 AM, Shway said:

Do we not want our best teams on display?

No we don't. We want teams that will grow the sport across the nation as a whole, not only on display but put into a spot that a club that exists, or a club yet to be can aspire to.

MLS teams don't need more exposure, and as far as I'm concerned, if you want to play in a US league, you deal with US qualification. No other region would, nor should give up it's berths to teams that don't even play in the competitions it runs.

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It seems to me that what needs to change is Canada's soccer culture. If Canadians follow the CPL like they follow their favourite European league (and I mean that they'd follow both leagues, not one or the other) then the CPL would flourish. If the media numbers and fans in stands can high enough levels, then it would be advantageous for the MLS teams to change over to CPL. Of course they can't just "change" leagues. The MLS franchises would have to be sold and then new franchises purchased in the CPL. Players would still be tied to the MLS under contract. But still, if the money looks good and the CPL was profitable, no reason why the change couldn't happen. Except in Toronto, where there is little support for anything but US based leagues.

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53 minutes ago, Shway said:

Now I don’t know what true CPL final was, and maybe it’s not comparable since it wasn’t on national tv.

However those numbers tell me we aren’t that interested/tuned in as we may like to believe.

MLS Cup gets 1 million + if there is a Canadian team in it probably.

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1 hour ago, Shway said:

Now I don’t know what true CPL final was, and maybe it’s not comparable since it wasn’t on national tv.

However those numbers tell me we aren’t that interested/tuned in as we may like to believe.

To Portland vs NY... is that a surprise?

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2 hours ago, Shway said:

Now I don’t know what true CPL final was, and maybe it’s not comparable since it wasn’t on national tv.

However those numbers tell me we aren’t that interested/tuned in as we may like to believe.

I remember last year's CPL Island Games final drew 50k on CBC. I don't remember how the first leg drew on CBC for the first year (where the 2nd leg was only on OneSoccer).

Edited by Watchmen
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9 hours ago, narduch said:

MLS Cup gets 1 million + if there is a Canadian team in it probably.

8 hours ago, Watchmen said:

I remember last year's CPL Island Games final drew 50k on CBC. I don't remember how the first leg drew on CBC for the first year (where the 2nd leg was only on OneSoccer).

And these comments feed my exact question points.

Which is, are Canadians really tuned into MLS, outside of when a Canadian team is involved?

If this is the case, then the point of the glamour of playing American teams is highly debatable.

To that point, the leagues with marquee markets down south indisputably have the best players in the world - NBA, NHL, MLB….this isn’t true for MLS. 

50k for last years CPL finals on CBC.
100k for MLS finals. 

There’s a 22 year lead… 
 

 

 

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42 minutes ago, Shway said:

And these comments feed my exact question points.

Which is, are Canadians really tuned into MLS, outside of when a Canadian team is involved?

If this is the case, then the point of the glamour of playing American teams is highly debatable.

To that point, the leagues with marquee markets down south indisputably have the best players in the world - NBA, NHL, MLB….this isn’t true for MLS. 

50k for last years CPL finals on CBC.
100k for MLS finals. 

There’s a 22 year lead… 
 

 

 

I don't think "the CPL got half the ratings of a league no one cares about" is quite the argument in favour of the CPL you think it is.

For the record, MLS has the same problem the NHL has - people care a lot about their home team and not much about the others. The limited data from the Island Games on CBC last year suggested that this is possibly true for the CPL as well, but a lot of their numbers on OneSoccer we'll also never know about since they don't disclose them.

Edited by Watchmen
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