CPL Zealots Name & Shame

[Obinna]

1 hour ago, ted said:

As you may have noticed recently in head-to-head competition, three CanPL teams stood up quite well against the three MLS teams in Canada. Despite being less than 6-months old, and despite having a salary bill 1/10(?) of the MLS clubs, the CanPL debutantes made a mockery of the MLS' contribution to, "the Canadian landscape". 

Sure there is more money in MLS, but most of that is being spent on ABC's - Anybody But Canadians so I don't really see how that helps us. Right now the Caps, Impact and TFC are, to be honest, small to middling fish in a big pond. Switch to CanPL and they instantly become very big fish in a smaller pond.

Hahaha c'mon now...

It's a great start for CPL teams (well, Cavalry 😎), but we need to see more before we champion our CPL clubs as equals. Still early days, my friend...

Caps, TFC and Impact provide MLS opportunities to Canadians. I wish they provided more, obviously, but they can't do that in the CPL, can they? 

Give me 3 MLS clubs and as many new clubs for CPL as possible...

Pulling them from Major League Soccer would weaken them substantially.

And why you or anyone else would want to weaken any of our Canadian clubs is beyond me!

[Obinna]

1 hour ago, Ansem said:

So keeping a few Canadians spots (very few starts on a regular basis) - how many of those are the difference maker on the national team to get us to the next level?

vs.

Exposing over a hundred of young Canadians to that level on a regular basis (if you let them operate somewhat the same) to accelerate their learning curve and development while consolidating the league...

 

I think option B has the most benefit

This scenario doesn't make any sense.

All I know is the big 3 are going to have to play by CPL rules. You are going to neuter those clubs if you place them in the Canadian Premier League.

Edited July 29, 2019 by Obinna

[Ansem]

1 hour ago, Obinna said:

This scenario doesn't make any sense.

All I know is the big 3 are going to have to play by CPL rules. You are going to neuter those clubs if you place them in the Canadian Premier League.

CPL rules allows for 49% of the roster to be foreigners instead of 8 for MLS.

That's why I said that CPL would have to agree to let them spend the way they want to some extend to even get them in the room, 10 years from now

[Obinna]

 

1 hour ago, Ansem said:

That's why I said that CPL would have to agree to let them spend the way they want to some extend to even get them in the room, 10 years from now

I can't see that happening with a salary cap.

Not fair to the other clubs and god forbid CPL starts making things up as they go along, like MLS.

1 hour ago, Lofty said:

But I will say this: if the MLS franchises currently located in Canadian cities were relocated to American cities (and were replaced by CPL clubs), the quality of play in CPL would increase, probably significantly (more exposure, more revenue)

So MLSE relocate TFC to America, then replace them with a new CPL club, and somehow the quality of play increases as a result? 

Couldn't MLSE just keep TFC in Canada and launch a fresh CPL club? Now that would be a net gain for Canadian talent.

[youllneverwalkalone]

I can't imagine the CPL founders intended to have a sub $1m cap for eternity. Keep in mind, the year prior to TFC joining MLS there was a hard cap of $1.9m!

While I agree that you can't port a $20m payroll to CPL today, Forge, Valour, HFX could likely sustain a $2.5m cap floor in the next year and a TFC could sell tickets with a $5m dollar cap. 

The MLS clubs would drive attendance and TV viewers. Obviously many things need to fall into place, but it could be both the best developmental outcome and the most profitable/sustainable choice for our top flight clubs.

[Obinna]

9 hours ago, Lofty said:

1. I said "the quality of play in CPL increases". The reason is that the market is a prime one and adding a CPL club there would raise the footprint and profile of the league which would result in more exposure (e.g. more matches on TV and in better time slots, more media coverage, etc.) and hence more revenue (e.g. advertising and sponsorship) for the clubs and league. Also, the new CPL club will be a relatively rich one. More revenue would obviously mean a higher salary cap: which would inevitably lead to a higher standard of football.

2. So long as there is an MLS franchise in Canada, it will be taking it's market away from CPL. Replacing it with a CPL team would make CPL stronger and increase the level of play in CPL for the reasons stated above.

1. There is already a CPL team in the GTA market, it is called York 9.

You could create another club and slap the name Toronto on it and have them play in the city proper, but I am not convinced it would have the impact you described, even with TFC out of the picture.

There is no guarantee such a CPL team would fill the shoes of Toronto FC.

2. That may be true for Montreal and Vancouver, since there are no CPL teams in those markets (yet).

And while that may improve the level of investment in the CPL (in theory), we don't know how deep the pockets of these theoretical owners would be, nor do we know if those current MLS owners would even invest in the CPL and if they did, we cannot say to what degree.

Too many unknowns.

But one thing I do know is that the Caps are criticized for not spending in MLS, but they'd definitely spend less in the CPL, not more.

I look at the total investment in the Canadian game and I believe we are better with MLS than without it. Major League Soccer routinely annoys me, especially when it comes to their unfair treatment of Canadians, but the pros significantly outweigh the cons, maybe not for CPL but for the game in Canada as a whole.

Meanwhile, the CPL will be just fine. It will do a great job bringing professional clubs to the rest of the country. 

I'll leave you all with this: If the Toronto Raptors relocate to America and the National Basketball League of Canada replaced it with a Toronto franchise, that may be better for that league, but definitely not for the sport of Basketball in Canada.

[ted]

17 hours ago, Obinna said:

Pulling them from Major League Soccer would weaken them substantially.

And why you or anyone else would want to weaken any of our Canadian clubs is beyond me!

Now you are just being a zealot for MLS. As the results showed, the CanPL teams are already better than people thought they would be compared to the MLS teams. Nobody is saying they are better or even equal necessarily, we are pointing out that they are far closer than anti-CanPL zealots like you want to admit.

I have no interest in weakening Canadian Clubs and eventually the salary cap for CanPL will rise or (bad idea) be eliminated, and they can attract better players. The three MLS teams moving to CanPL brings that closer.

 

9 minutes ago, Obinna said:

I'll leave you all with this: If the Toronto Raptors relocate to America and the National Basketball League of Canada replaced it with a Toronto franchise, that may be better for that league, but definitely not for the sport of Basketball in Canada.

The Toronto Raptors do almost nothing, "for the sport of Basketball in Canada". They do a lot for the business of the NBA and Maple Leaf Sports and Entertainment. 

[Ivan]

19 minutes ago, ted said:

Now you are just being a zealot for MLS. As the results showed, the CanPL teams are already better than people thought they would be compared to the MLS teams. Nobody is saying they are better or even equal necessarily, we are pointing out that they are far closer than anti-CanPL zealots like you want to admit.

I have no interest in weakening Canadian Clubs and eventually the salary cap for CanPL will rise or (bad idea) be eliminated, and they can attract better players. The three MLS teams moving to CanPL brings that closer.

 

The Toronto Raptors do almost nothing, "for the sport of Basketball in Canada". They do a lot for the business of the NBA and Maple Leaf Sports and Entertainment. 

Ted, I have a lot of respect for you as a long time poster on this site and appreciate your fandom and passion for Canadian soccer, but this is a "Binky level" post. : )

[dyslexic nam]

19 minutes ago, ted said:

The Toronto Raptors do almost nothing, "for the sport of Basketball in Canada". They do a lot for the business of the NBA and Maple Leaf Sports and Entertainment. 

I agree with the general idea that replacing the existing MLS clubs with CPL clubs (and MLS moving out) would significantly strengthen CPL.  Denying this takes some pretty big mental gymnastics IMO.  But I do disagree on the quoted portion.  I have a kid on the provincial basketball team and it is undeniable to me that the Raps elevated the level of excitement in this sport to an unprecedented degree - and I think that will reverberate for years to come. 

Having said that, I don't think TFC has anything even remotely like that kind of impact.  The fact is that the NBA championship showcases the best players in the world and this year's playoffs captured national attention.  MLS does nothing of the sort.  TFC winning the MLS championship barely registered on the radar for most non soccer fans (whereas I know a ton of people who had no interest in basketball watching the Rap's run), and anyone looking for the highest level of footy probably watches the EPL and/or Champs League . 

[dyslexic nam]

47 minutes ago, Obinna said:

1. There is already a CPL team in the GTA market, it is called York 9.

You could create another club and slap the name Toronto on it and have them play in the city proper, but I am not convinced it would have the impact you described, even with TFC out of the picture.

There is no guarantee such a CPL team would fill the shoes of Toronto FC.

2. That may be true for Montreal and Vancouver, since there are no CPL teams in those markets (yet).

And while that may improve the level of investment in the CPL (in theory), we don't know how deep the pockets of these theoretical owners would be, nor do we know if those current MLS owners would even invest in the CPL and if they did, we cannot say to what degree.

Too many unknowns.

I recognize that this discussion requires some speculation, but I don't think the subject is as murky as you imply.  Toronto has gotten a taste of club footy and has responded very well in terms of fan support.  I have very little doubt that if MLS moved on and MLSE put its clout behind a CPL club, it would promote it in such a way that would lead to a very successful club that had great attendance and raised the bar for CPL.  Speculative?  Sure.  But not completely "unknown" - call it a pretty reasonable guess.  Having a continued MLS presence will always provide an alternative that many will view as superior.  Remove that alternative and I am confident fans would flock to CPL. 

As for whether or not current owners would invest in CPL if the door got closed on MLS - I have no idea.  But I am pretty sure that there is enough money in those markets that some ownership group(s) would step forward in a hurry to fill that void.  If Halifax can generate that kind of excitement and support, I am sure there are owners who could make a go of it in our 3 largest markets.  Keep in mind that the reduced expenses of a CPL club might make it a more attractive (rather than less attractive) option for some.

48 minutes ago, Obinna said:

I'll leave you all with this: If the Toronto Raptors relocate to America and the National Basketball League of Canada replaced it with a Toronto franchise, that may be better for that league, but definitely not for the sport of Basketball in Canada.

This seems a disingenuous.  The NBA is the best basketball league in the world, by a huge margin.  In contrast, the NBL is a minor league fueled by part-timers.  In terms of salary, the Raps spent about somewhere in the range of $140M last year whereas  an NBL team spends less than $150k (basically 0.1% of the Raps).  Pretending this is an accurate guide for MLS-to-CPL comparisons seems like borderline trolling.  

 

[Obinna]

5 minutes ago, dyslexic nam said:

I agree with the general idea that replacing the existing MLS clubs with CPL clubs (and MLS moving out) would significantly strengthen CPL.  Denying this takes some pretty big mental gymnastics IMO.  

I am not denying it would strengthen the CPL. I am sure it would, but I sincerely doubt it you could plop TFC into the CPL without a significant drop off in advertising, revenue, etc. 

Like it or not, being in an American league matters for such things. 

[dyslexic nam]

2 minutes ago, Obinna said:

I am not denying it would strengthen the CPL. I am sure it would, but I sincerely doubt it you could plop TFC into the CPL without a significant drop off in advertising, revenue, etc. 

Like it or not, being in an American league matters for such things. 

I agree with that point.  But the question isn't whether they would be exactly as they are now - the question is whether or not it would be a net gain for Canadian soccer.

[RS]

1 hour ago, ted said:

The Toronto Raptors do almost nothing, "for the sport of Basketball in Canada". They do a lot for the business of the NBA and Maple Leaf Sports and Entertainment. 

This may be the dumbest thing I've ever read on this board, and that includes posts from DoyleG and Robert.

[youllneverwalkalone]

31 minutes ago, Obinna said:

I am not denying it would strengthen the CPL. I am sure it would, but I sincerely doubt it you could plop TFC into the CPL without a significant drop off in advertising, revenue, etc. 

Like it or not, being in an American league matters for such things. 

What do you think would be greater, the drop in revenue or expense?

[PopePouri]

Leave the Welsh model alone. It's working for all soccer teams here in Canada. CPL should give professional opportunities to Canadian players to move on. MLS gives Canadians the opportunity to earn more money at a better level of play. It's a win-win for all.

Edited July 30, 2019 by PopePouri

[Obinna]

2 minutes ago, dyslexic nam said:

I agree with that point.  But the question isn't whether they would be exactly as they are now - the question is whether or not it would be a net gain for Canadian soccer.

I would say no 

Toronto FC would immediately be significantly weaker. They would adhere to the CPL salary cap and lose the vast majority of their players, including some of the Canadian ones. That alone would be a net loss for Canadian soccer, not to mention the loss of media presence and other such things.

Right now, you can watch TFC every weekend on TSN, but to speculate on whether they'd pick up CPL instead would be just that - speculation. 

I can only answer that question based on what is certain to happen, not on what I think may or may not happen based on our speculations that are influenced by each of our biases.

[Ansem]

8 minutes ago, PopePouri said:

Leave the Welsh model alone. It's working for all soccer teams here in Canada. CPL should give professional opportunities to Canadian players to move on. MLS gives Canadians the opportunity to earn more money at a better level of play. It's a win-win for all.

As does other leagues around the world. CPL does NOT prevent that from happening one bit.

Edited July 30, 2019 by Ansem

[dyslexic nam]

6 minutes ago, Obinna said:

I would say no 

Toronto FC would immediately be significantly weaker. They would adhere to the CPL salary cap and lose the vast majority of their players, including some of the Canadian ones. That alone would be a net loss for Canadian soccer, not to mention the loss of media presence and other such things.

Right now, you can watch TFC every weekend on TSN, but to speculate on whether they'd pick up CPL instead would be just that - speculation. 

I can only answer that question based on what is certain to happen, not on what I think may or may not happen based on our speculations that are influenced by each of our biases.

I guess I don't attribute some of what I think would be likely conclusions to "bias".

I think CPL would get far more mainstream broadcasting attention because there would be little reason to focus on MLS and there would remain a strong appetite for soccer content.  CPL is the fairly obvious choice.

I think ownership groups would found CPL clubs in those cities because it would make pretty good economic sense, given what most of see as positive prospects for growth in CPL. If they can be founded in the existing CPL markets, I find it unlikely thet they would be shut out of the big 3.

And I think those clubs would be well supported because the populations are large and have demonstrated a strong appetite for local footy, even when the product wasn't absolutely top shelf (as in TFC's first few years).

Sure this is speculation  - but that is most of what we do on here.  And I don't think anything written above takes too much of a cognitive leap.  They seem - at least to me - like pretty reasonable conclusion. 

Edited July 30, 2019 by dyslexic nam

[Obinna]

58 minutes ago, dyslexic nam said:

This seems a disingenuous.  The NBA is the best basketball league in the world, by a huge margin.  In contrast, the NBL is a minor league fueled by part-timers.  In terms of salary, the Raps spent about somewhere in the range of $140M last year whereas  an NBL team spends less than $150k (basically 0.1% of the Raps).  Pretending this is an accurate guide for MLS-to-CPL comparisons seems like borderline trolling. 

Yes MLS-to-CPL is a hell of a lot closer in every respect than NBA-to-NBL, but the concept is the same, even though the degree is admittedly exaggerated to drive the point home:

Having a big club like Toronto FC relocate is not good for Canadian Soccer.

Edited July 30, 2019 by Obinna

[Ansem]

7 minutes ago, Obinna said:

Toronto FC would immediately be significantly weaker. They would adhere to the CPL salary cap and lose the vast majority of their players, including some of the Canadian ones. That alone would be a net loss for Canadian soccer, not to mention the loss of media presence and other such things.

In my scenario, I do point out that the league would have to accommodate the like of TFC somehow. If they wish to overpay for 3 "superstars" they can but they get the benefit of paying in Canadian dollars. Also, MLS restricts foreign signing to 8 while CPL allows to up to almost half the roster.

Having to start 6 Canadians means more of them are exposed to higher quality. How is that a loss if you allow TFC to spend on foreigners?

I did point out that in Negotiations, they would have to be accommodating on a much larger scale / period of time that they were willing to do with the Fury

I also pointed out that if CPL was inflexible in negotiations and not see the long term bigger picture, they probably deserved to be told no.

I'm pretty confident that people are talking about them joining CPL under thoses sets of circumstances, not having them join and cap them at $2M.

Beirne had said in a Q&A that the league would have to grow to a point it would make sense for them to join. So we're talking post 2026 World Cup and around when the MediaPro deal is up in 2029. I don't see anything happening until 2030

15 minutes ago, Obinna said:

Right now, you can watch TFC every weekend on TSN, but to speculate on whether they'd pick up CPL instead would be just that - speculation. 

The 2029 mediapro deal being up is key. Major broadcasters in Quebec would never pass on Montreal Impact just because they would switch to CPL, I doubt it would be the case for TSN or Sportsnet if they ever choose to get back into soccer

[Obinna]

30 minutes ago, youllneverwalkalone said:

What do you think would be greater, the drop in revenue or expense?

Both would drop significantly but expenses for sure would drop more, perhaps by orders of magnitude. 

[Obinna]

12 minutes ago, dyslexic nam said:

I guess I don't attribute some of what I think would be likely conclusions to "bias".

I think CPL would get far more mainstream broadcasting attention because there would be little reason to focus on MLS and there would remain a strong appetite for soccer content.  CPL is the fairly obvious choice.

I think ownership groups would found CPL clubs in those cities because it would make pretty good economic sense, given what most of see as positive prospects for growth in CPL. If they can be founded in the existing CPL markets, I find it unlikely thet they would be shut out of the big 3.

And I think those clubs would be well supported because the populations are large and have demonstrated a strong appetite for local footy, even when the product wasn't absolutely top shelf (as in TFC's first few years).

Sure this is speculation  - but that is most of what we do on here.  And I don't think anything written above takes too much of a cognitive leap.  They seem - at least to me - like pretty reasonable conclusion. 

I think it's dreamy, but to each their own!

[Obinna]

22 minutes ago, PopePouri said:

CPL should give professional opportunities to Canadian players to move on. MLS gives Canadians the opportunity to earn more money at a better level of play. It's a win-win for all.

This really sums it up for me and is absolutely bang on. 

[dyslexic nam]

1 minute ago, Obinna said:

I think it's dreamy, but to each their own!

I am curious which of those claims you think is over-reaching.  If MLS moved out of Canada

1. CPL would get increased media coverage
2. CPL teams would be founded in the 3 major markets
3. Those CPL teams would be well supported

Not trying to be argumentative, but to me those are pretty modest and reasonable conclusions. 

[Obinna]

5 minutes ago, Ansem said:

In my scenario, I do point out that the league would have to accommodate the like of TFC somehow. If they wish to overpay for 3 "superstars" they can but they get the benefit of paying in Canadian dollars. Also, MLS restricts foreign signing to 8 while CPL allows to up to almost half the roster.

Having to start 6 Canadians means more of them are exposed to higher quality. How is that a loss if you allow TFC to spend on foreigners?

I did point out that in Negotiations, they would have to be accommodating on a much larger scale / period of time that they were willing to do with the Fury

I also pointed out that if CPL was inflexible in negotiations and not see the long term bigger picture, they probably deserved to be told no.

I'm pretty confident that people are talking about them joining CPL under thoses sets of circumstances, not having them join and cap them at $2M.

Beirne had said in a Q&A that the league would have to grow to a point it would make sense for them to join. So we're talking post 2026 World Cup and around when the MediaPro deal is up in 2029. I don't see anything happening until 2030

The 2029 mediapro deal being up is key. Major broadcasters in Quebec would never pass on Montreal Impact just because they would switch to CPL, I doubt it would be the case for TSN or Sportsnet if they ever choose to get back into soccer

Well, if all of that was to unfold in the manner which you describe, then sure, but chances of that are slim-to-none if you ask me.