CPL Zealots Name & Shame

[youllneverwalkalone]

Curious where everyone stands on this...

[Cheeta]

LOL.  Not nice, not nice at all.

I'll play!!!

It would feel unfair not to grandfather existing franchises the opportunity to continue playing in US based leagues.  I would, however, fight with great vigor any attempted expansion by these league into Canada.  With the greatest vigor.  And that being said the status quo I will not guarentee.  And that isn't so unusual.  That isn't something anyone can guarantee in anything.    

The only thing I want need out of foreign leagues currently opporating in Canada is reciprocity.  If there are domestic quotas for US based franchises then there must be domestic quotas for Canadian based franchises.  Simple as that. 

If the league to which you belong to cannot receive CSA accreditation because the league you belong to chooses not to meet the CSA's condition of reciprocity then so be it.  It is what it is. 

 

 

[Obinna]

Glad to see that, so far anyways, I am in the majority.

I really don't care if MLS clubs stay in that league until the end of time, doesn't bother me one bit. Same for the Fury, I kinda enjoy the odd arrangement of having them in the USL Championship.

As long as we have players in competitive environments, it's all good. Our wagon is hitched to MLS, but we also have a league of our own, isn't that the best of both worlds?

I think the current situation provides the greatest benefit as far as development of players goes.

Edited July 27, 2019 by Obinna

[Unnamed Trialist]

You did not give me the option of voting Ottawa in or desanctioned by 2020, and MLS teams, whatever they want. 

[narduch]

I vote for what I wish would happen (option 1)

But at the same time I don't have an issue with the MLS clubs staying put for now. 

I expect the Fury to remain in USL. They will continue to  get yearly sanctions to allow it. 

[dyslexic nam]

4 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

You did not give me the option of voting Ottawa in or desanctioned by 2020, and MLS teams, whatever they want. 

This would be my ultimate option as well, but I went with 2 since it is somewhat close.  

I simply don’t see the value in allowing Fury to play in, and strengthen, a foreign league when there is CPL- by most indicators a perfect match for Fury.  The V Cup confirmed what most of us believed - that there is no gulf in quality and that CPL would provide a perfectly appropriate level of competition.  The continued exclusion of CPL from the Ottawa market is not something I can get behind.  And if a bit of strong arm tactics are required, I will sleep fine knowing that (what I believe to be) the greater good was achieved.

The MLS teams continue to have a strong argument for exemptions via exceptional circumstances (even tho some in here pretend their case is the same as Fury while ignoring the substantial differences), but I am very much on board with @Cheeta‘s point re reciprocity.  Specifically, I am still stuck on the fact that Canadians are treated as foreign internationals for US teams while Americans are deemed domestics league wide. I know that the home grown rule attempts to address this but it does so in a way that still doesn’t put us on level footing when the solution could have been so much easier.  The rule also seeks to assert MLS monopoly by pressuring Canadian kids into the 3 academy pathways (for better future MLS prospects) precisely at a time when CPL offers a very attractive alternative - especially if plans for academies materialize and that offers kids a faster path to first team footy. 

If MLS conceded on this one point, I would be perfectly content to maintain status quo. Even without it, I recognize that MLS may continue to grow into a league that provides a very high level of competition and thus that our participation with 3 teams is valuable.  But the flip side is that the participation of our three biggest markets in CPL would also provide a huge injection of support/$$$ into our national league.  

Basically, I am good either way with MLS but would lean toward status quo if they addressed the domestic issue.  

[Terry_Canuck]

At first, I was hoping for Ottawa to join the CPL, but now I'm rather indifferent to the whole idea.  The comments of the brass and the players behaviour during the cup match a couple of weeks ago has increased my dislike of them.

If they come over then fine, but I'd gladly play them again in the cup next year instead.

Cheers,

Terry

PS: Having Vancouver and/or Montreal come over would be awesome...forget about TFC.

 

Edited July 27, 2019 by Terry_Canuck

[HochelagaFC]

50 minutes ago, Terry_Canuck said:

At first, I was hoping for Ottawa to join the CPL, but now I'm rather indifferent to the whole idea.  The comments of the brass and the players behaviour during the cup match a couple of weeks ago has increased my dislike of them.

What happened and what where those comments? 

[Macksam]

The only way I see the three MLS teams coming over is if a network provider offers a conditional big money broadcasting offer if the CPL teams get the MLS clubs on board. I could see all three MLS properties selling their franchises at market value then and heading over. It's a win-win, attendance for MLS clubs should not take a hit as the quality theoretically should be higher as even the former MLS' teams' revenues (broadcasting, sponsorships, etc.) will increase and CPL attendances would receive a huge boost as well.

This is also the most sensible way to go about things. No need to force them. When the conditions are right, it will happen naturally. 

Edited July 27, 2019 by Macksam

[Ansem]

5 minutes ago, Macksam said:

The only way I see the three MLS teams coming over is if a network provider offers a conditional big money broadcasting offer if the CPL teams get the MLS clubs on board. I could see all three MLS properties selling their franchises at market value then and heading over. It's a win-win, attendance for MLS clubs should not take a hit as the quality theoretically should be higher as even the former MLS' teams' revenues (broadcasting, sponsorships, etc.) will increase and CPL attendances would receive a huge boost as well.

This is also the most sensible way to go about things. No need to force them. When the conditions are right, it will happen naturally. 

That's why I have 2029 circled when the Mediapro deal is over.

This will be the league's window for such negotiations with TV broadcasters, 3 MLS teams, CPL/CSB, CONCACAF

Edited July 27, 2019 by Ansem

[Macksam]

9 minutes ago, Ansem said:

That's why I have 2029 circled when the Mediapro deal is over.

This will be the league's window for such negotiations with TV broadcasters, 3 MLS teams, CPL/CSB, CONCACAF

Yes, and at that point, if the CPL is doing really well, the main factor will be the following:

What is the state of MLS?

• Is it chugging along like it is now? No big TV money, still a fringe in the North American sports landscape
• Has it become a top league? Big TV money, mainstream acceptance, finally made joined its place among the big 4

If it's the former, the three Canadian franchises can be enticed to come over if the offer is right. 

If it's the latter, it's probably not going to happen as those teams will have solidified themselves at that point with the big broadcasting money on top of high sponsorships, drawing 30,000-40,000 spectators on a regular basis, negotiating state of the art new arena constructions. 

[Obinna]

6 hours ago, dyslexic nam said:

This would be my ultimate option as well, but I went with 2 since it is somewhat close.  

I simply don’t see the value in allowing Fury to play in, and strengthen, a foreign league when there is CPL- by most indicators a perfect match for Fury.  The V Cup confirmed what most of us believed - that there is no gulf in quality and that CPL would provide a perfectly appropriate level of competition.  The continued exclusion of CPL from the Ottawa market is not something I can get behind.  And if a bit of strong arm tactics are required, I will sleep fine knowing that (what I believe to be) the greater good was achieved.

The MLS teams continue to have a strong argument for exemptions via exceptional circumstances (even tho some in here pretend their case is the same as Fury while ignoring the substantial differences), but I am very much on board with @Cheeta‘s point re reciprocity.  Specifically, I am still stuck on the fact that Canadians are treated as foreign internationals for US teams while Americans are deemed domestics league wide. I know that the home grown rule attempts to address this but it does so in a way that still doesn’t put us on level footing when the solution could have been so much easier.  The rule also seeks to assert MLS monopoly by pressuring Canadian kids into the 3 academy pathways (for better future MLS prospects) precisely at a time when CPL offers a very attractive alternative - especially if plans for academies materialize and that offers kids a faster path to first team footy. 

If MLS conceded on this one point, I would be perfectly content to maintain status quo. Even without it, I recognize that MLS may continue to grow into a league that provides a very high level of competition and thus that our participation with 3 teams is valuable.  But the flip side is that the participation of our three biggest markets in CPL would also provide a huge injection of support/$$$ into our national league.  

Basically, I am good either way with MLS but would lean toward status quo if they addressed the domestic issue.  

For me the value is purely in the fact that it allows us to directly measure the quality of CPL versus the Championship of USL. There is no other utility aside from satisfying my curiosity.

As for the Ottawa market, I think Gatineau could be an option for CPL. That increases the footprint in Quebec as well. Of course, an investor is needed, but I see that as a potential option.

The Ottawa metro area is +1M, so perhaps it can support CPL and USL-Championship? Would make for a very unique cross-city, cross-province rivalry also, no?

[Unnamed Trialist]

15 hours ago, Terry_Canuck said:

At first, I was hoping for Ottawa to join the CPL, but now I'm rather indifferent to the whole idea.  The comments of the brass and the players behaviour during the cup match a couple of weeks ago has increased my dislike of them.

If they come over then fine, but I'd gladly play them again in the cup next year instead.

Cheers,

Terry

PS: Having Vancouver and/or Montreal come over would be awesome...forget about TFC.

Having not followed it at all, what went down with Fury staff and players during the matches?

[Sébastien]

22 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Having not followed it at all, what went down with Fury staff and players during the matches?

I watched both games, uncluding one in person, and have no idea what he's referring to.

[T_Bison]

TBH, I'm perfectly OK with Impact, TFC & Whitecaps staying in MLS. They have a good setup going for them so why mess with that? And if Ottawa believes the USL is where they would like to stay, groovy. You guys keep doing that.

I think the best course of action is to keep building the CanPL to the point where it's considered #3 on the continent. There's too much money and too big a head-start to take on MLS & LigaMX anytime soon, but a solid #3 is a great thing - make money on selling talent, and foster co-operation between the CanPL & other leagues. Friendlies between leagues would be great and another way to promote the game as well - Loons & Valour, PFC vs Seattle/Portland, etc.

[Ansem]

38 minutes ago, T_Bison said:

TBH, I'm perfectly OK with Impact, TFC & Whitecaps staying in MLS. They have a good setup going for them so why mess with that? And if Ottawa believes the USL is where they would like to stay, groovy. You guys keep doing that.

I think the best course of action is to keep building the CanPL to the point where it's considered #3 on the continent. There's too much money and too big a head-start to take on MLS & LigaMX anytime soon, but a solid #3 is a great thing - make money on selling talent, and foster co-operation between the CanPL & other leagues. Friendlies between leagues would be great and another way to promote the game as well - Loons & Valour, PFC vs Seattle/Portland, etc.

Status quo (except Ottawa) is fine now, but post 2026 World Cup, it isn't acceptable.

Otherwise, we'll remain one of the few places that will never get the league it deserves to protect the interests of a few private ownerships and those of USSF leagues...choosing to "settle" instead of going for the "full potential" of what CPL could be if it had all of Canada.

[Obinna]

It's strange to me that people would want MLS clubs to move to CPL.

I love the Canadian Premier League, but that is a demotion no matter how you slice it. Money wise, talent wise, etc. It's a step down.

Perhaps the rationale for it is that CPL would immediately get stronger, but let's remember that Toronto FC in the CPL would not be the TFC of today. You're not getting MLS-TFC, your getting a significantly weaker rendition that would be a meek shadow of it's current self.

That would make the Canadian landscape weaker overall, not stronger.

Edited July 29, 2019 by Obinna

[Ansem]

56 minutes ago, Obinna said:

It's strange to me that people would want MLS clubs to move to CPL.

Not now, only at a time where it makes sense which points out to post 2026 in the majority of cases

56 minutes ago, Obinna said:

I love the Canadian Premier League, but that is a demotion no matter how you slice it. Money wise, talent wise, etc. It's a step down.

It's a bad idea as of now, hence talking about a time where the CPL has grown enough where it makes sense. I'm just talking hypothetically, but the league would have to make massive concessions which is pretty much letting them operate the same way they were allowed too in MLS for "X" number of years or give the freedom to all the other clubs to spend like them. The league as showed the willingness to show that kind of flexibility towards the Fury, they would have to do it again at a much higher scale with the 3 others.

56 minutes ago, Obinna said:

Perhaps the rationale for it is that CPL would immediately get stronger, but let's remember that Toronto FC in the CPL would not be the TFC of today. You're not getting MLS-TFC, your getting a significantly weaker rendition that would be a meek shadow of it's current self.

Unless you let them operate "as is" in a potential inclusion post 2026, just like the Fury were offered.

56 minutes ago, Obinna said:

That would make the Canadian landscape weaker overall, not stronger.

I disagree here. The number of Canadians seeing lots of minutes on those 3 teams is low if we're being honest here. On that front, I don't see it as getting the landscape weaker. Those teams cares more about putting a product on the pitch than putting Canadians on the pitch at all costs (which they've admitted plenty of time). I say, let them continue but we expose more of our own to their level of play.

Assuming you let them have the liberty of signing top talents as they've been doing, that's more Canadians being exposed to higher quality. It's like when I have this "Ha-Ha" argument whenever a US fans tells me that an MLS team would be stronger than a bottom EPL or La Liga team. My rebuttal is:

• Sure, Granada or Huddersfield lose a lot in their leagues but they (Domestic players & coaching staff) plays the likes of Barca, Real Madrid, Atletico, Messi/Suarez, Man City, Chelsea, Liverpool MUCH more often. How much faster and efficient is the learning curves for those domestic players? They lose, sure, but they are used to that tempo in ways MLS teams aren't so that's a flawed statement.

If you let the MLS teams operates as business as usual, the CPL players gets exposed to higher quality MUCH more often. York9 and Cavalry proved that they could match the intensify when necessary...Imagine if it was twice as much or three time more often during a season. Those 3 MLS clubs in CPL would raise the learning curve of the rest of our pool at a much faster rate. Let's be honest here, Forge, Cavalry would most likely seek to not be left behind and keep up in spending/quality.

In a scenario like this, the CSA could simply move the CCL spot from the V Cup to CPL which would provide the opportunity for our 3 big club at playing continental tournament against MLS and Liga MX

1. CPL Champion --> CCL
2. 2nd place --> CCL or CONCACAF League
3. 3rd place --> CONCACAF League

PSG runs with the league, spends more than half of League 1 combined and is built for the Champions League. How is that hurting the French system? French players facing PSG has massive benefits to their development. Teams develop players, build competitive squads aiming at competing with the top 2 or 3 teams. Their young players matures and get sold while adding more depth to their pool. Rinse and repeat.

Would it be so bad for CPL to have something resembling that? I think not. Does this prevents PSG from making money and having strong squads? No, as long as the league allows it and this is key.

 

To me it comes down to 2 factors post 2026

1. FIFA / CONCACAF enforcing their sanctioning rule or not
2. Business decision

Option 2 is the better choice. How much can CPL make joining their league worth their while 10 years from now when the MediaPro deal will be up? Will the league be willing to give that much roster freedom? Make exemptions only for the 3? Accept that there won't parity for a while and have a league made of "Top 5" then the rest? How much are they willing to "sweeten" the deal?

That's for the league to decide when they reach that point. If the league doesn't believe in making massive concessions for the long term interests of the league, than they will deserve being snubbed by the 3 MLS team.

There's no such thing in business as "the impossibility of making a deal" and business interest is what drives the 3 teams business decisions.

Edited July 29, 2019 by Ansem

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

To clarify my posture on this. I would only be OK with MLS Calgary if it was the Cavalry changing leagues. Don't think the CSA could sanction a fourth MLS team that turned a CanPL team into a latter day Columbus Xoggz. In a similar sort of way I think the CSA should block a second Ottawa team (Gatineau would be fair enough, however) if the Fury are still in the USL. Once a team has been launched in a city with CSA sanctioning they should never be actively undermined.

Edited July 29, 2019 by Ozzie_the_parrot

[Kent]

Keep MLS teams where they are, move Ottawa. That's my answer. Since it isn't in the poll, I went with number 3.

31 minutes ago, Ansem said:

If you let the MLS teams operates as business as usual, the CPL players gets exposed to higher quality MUCH more often. York9 and Cavalry proved that they could match the intensify when it arise...Imagine if it was twice as much or three time more often during a season. Those 3 MLS clubs in CPL would raise the learning curve of the rest of our pool at a faster rate. Let's be honest here, Forge, Cavalry would most likely seek to not be left behind and potentially other clubs.

I believe the deal with Ottawa would have been for them to have a 1 year grace period where they could operate under the rules they were going to be using in USL. Not for them to have an advantage over every other team in the league in perpetuity. So sure, maybe you have the TFC of today in the league in 2020, but then by 2021 either they have to get rid of approximately everyone on their roster, or you let them (and Vancouver and Montreal) be the new chosen ones (replacing Forge, Valour, and FC Edmonton) that get to have their own, more lenient, set of rules. It's one thing to have a dominant team like PSG in your league. It's another thing entirely to artificially limit the other teams to allow PSG to be the dominant team in the league.

[Ansem]

9 minutes ago, Kent said:

It's one thing to have a dominant team like PSG in your league. It's another thing entirely to artificially limit the other teams to allow PSG to be the dominant team in the league.

I agree.

Ideally, you have to implement roster rules that allows all 3 to operates as they want without restricting the others. It's unlikely that we would see that many team spend to that level except a few just like in most Euro leagues. (Cavalry and Forge comes into mind).

All I'm saying, is that I believe that CPL will have a shot at getting them in the room to at least hear them out, around 2029 when they'll be looking to renew or a new media deal.

We'll see how much concessions the group of ownership will be willing to make to have them join. How they see the long term value of their inclusion over the short to medium pain/unfairness will be key.

If they don't see it, then they will have deserve missing out on them and we'll be able to collectively close that chapter unless FIFA decides otherwise. They made a gesture towards the Fury in good faith but despite what they think, they aren't the 3 MLS clubs and there was no value in giving them long term exemptions.

Edited July 29, 2019 by Ansem

[Obinna]

2 hours ago, Ansem said:

Not now, only at a time where it makes sense which points out to post 2026 in the majority of cases

It's a bad idea as of now, hence talking about a time where the CPL has grown enough where it makes sense. I'm just talking hypothetically, but the league would have to make massive concessions which is pretty much letting them operate the same way they were allowed too in MLS for "X" number of years or give the freedom to all the other clubs to spend like them. The league as showed the willingness to show that kind of flexibility towards the Fury, they would have to do it again at a much higher scale with the 3 others.

Unless you let them operate "as is" in a potential inclusion post 2026, just like the Fury were offered.

I disagree here. The number of Canadians seeing lots of minutes on those 3 teams is low if we're being honest here. On that front, I don't see it as getting the landscape weaker. Those teams cares more about putting a product on the pitch than putting Canadians on the pitch at all costs (which they've admitted plenty of time). I say, let them continue but we expose more of our own to their level of play.

Assuming you let them have the liberty of signing top talents as they've been doing, that's more Canadians being exposed to higher quality. It's like when I have this "Ha-Ha" argument whenever a US fans tells me that an MLS team would be stronger than a bottom EPL or La Liga team. My rebuttal is:

• Sure, Granada or Huddersfield lose a lot in their leagues but they (Domestic players & coaching staff) plays the likes of Barca, Real Madrid, Atletico, Messi/Suarez, Man City, Chelsea, Liverpool MUCH more often. How much faster and efficient is the learning curves for those domestic players? They lose, sure, but they are used to that tempo in ways MLS teams aren't so that's a flawed statement.

If you let the MLS teams operates as business as usual, the CPL players gets exposed to higher quality MUCH more often. York9 and Cavalry proved that they could match the intensify when necessary...Imagine if it was twice as much or three time more often during a season. Those 3 MLS clubs in CPL would raise the learning curve of the rest of our pool at a much faster rate. Let's be honest here, Forge, Cavalry would most likely seek to not be left behind and keep up in spending/quality.

In a scenario like this, the CSA could simply move the CCL spot from the V Cup to CPL which would provide the opportunity for our 3 big club at playing continental tournament against MLS and Liga MX

1. CPL Champion --> CCL
2. 2nd place --> CCL or CONCACAF League
3. 3rd place --> CONCACAF League

PSG runs with the league, spends more than half of League 1 combined and is built for the Champions League. How is that hurting the French system? French players facing PSG has massive benefits to their development. Teams develop players, build competitive squads aiming at competing with the top 2 or 3 teams. Their young players matures and get sold while adding more depth to their pool. Rinse and repeat.

Would it be so bad for CPL to have something resembling that? I think not. Does this prevents PSG from making money and having strong squads? No, as long as the league allows it and this is key.

 

To me it comes down to 2 factors post 2026

1. FIFA / CONCACAF enforcing their sanctioning rule or not
2. Business decision

Option 2 is the better choice. How much can CPL make joining their league worth their while 10 years from now when the MediaPro deal will be up? Will the league be willing to give that much roster freedom? Make exemptions only for the 3? Accept that there won't parity for a while and have a league made of "Top 5" then the rest? How much are they willing to "sweeten" the deal?

That's for the league to decide when they reach that point. If the league doesn't believe in making massive concessions for the long term interests of the league, than they will deserve being snubbed by the 3 MLS team.

There's no such thing in business as "the impossibility of making a deal" and business interest is what drives the 3 teams business decisions.

There's way too much hypothetical content here. Too many assumptions and too much talk about other leagues to comment on.

But I will address our disagreement on whether the Canadian landscape becomes weaker without MLS.

The answer is unequivocally yes.

MLS is a higher level in all regards and Canadians get less minutes at that level without MLS in Canada, plain and simple.

[ted]

3 hours ago, Obinna said:

I love the Canadian Premier League, but that is a demotion no matter how you slice it. Money wise, talent wise, etc. It's a step down.

[snip]

That would make the Canadian landscape weaker overall, not stronger.

As you may have noticed recently in head-to-head competition, three CanPL teams stood up quite well against the three MLS teams in Canada. Despite being less than 6-months old, and despite having a salary bill 1/10(?) of the MLS clubs, the CanPL debutantes made a mockery of the MLS' contribution to, "the Canadian landscape". 

Sure there is more money in MLS, but most of that is being spent on ABC's - Anybody But Canadians so I don't really see how that helps us. Right now the Caps, Impact and TFC are, to be honest, small to middling fish in a big pond. Switch to CanPL and they instantly become very big fish in a smaller pond.

[Ansem]

3 minutes ago, ted said:

Sure there is more money in MLS, but most of that is being spent on ABC's - Anybody But Canadians

Even Montreal lowballed Samuel Piette ($143K) who's now open to go back to Europe if he's not making Will Trapp money ($500k). It's like those clubs will make it rain for anyone who isn't Canadian...

Newsflash, Trapp was atrocious on the USMNT. Piette is younger and way better than him. Montreal would rather overpay an American keeper than Crepeau

It's really stuff like this that extinguish my sympathy for those 3.

[Ansem]

47 minutes ago, Obinna said:

The answer is unequivocally yes.

MLS is a higher level in all regards and Canadians get less minutes at that level without MLS in Canada, plain and simple.

So keeping a few Canadians spots (very few starts on a regular basis) - how many of those are the difference maker on the national team to get us to the next level?

vs.

Exposing over a hundred of young Canadians to that level on a regular basis (if you let them operate somewhat the same) to accelerate their learning curve and development while consolidating the league...

 

I think option B has the most benefit

Edited July 29, 2019 by Ansem