Aron Winter

[Macksam]

http://www.sportsnet.ca/soccer/aron-winter-heart-still-toronto-fc/

I love Aron Winter. The man was a head of his time. The league around his tenure, and still to this day, wasn't ready for what he brought to the table.

[yomurphy1]

2 hours ago, Macksam said:

http://www.sportsnet.ca/soccer/aron-winter-heart-still-toronto-fc/

I love Aron Winter. The man was a head of his time. The league around his tenure, and still to this day, wasn't ready for what he brought to the table.

He had no business coaching a professional team. He's hasn't coached above the youth level since... ahead of his time is a stretch to say the least.

[Macksam]

1 hour ago, yomurphy1 said:

He had no business coaching a professional team. He's hasn't coached above the youth level since... ahead of his time is a stretch to say the least.

He was a head of his time. The man is a visionary, who was handicapped by the league's parameters from accomplishing said vision. That's why I stand by my notion that he was a head of his time. The league wasn't ready and still isn't ready for a guy like him.

He had no business coaching a professional team? Really? Zidane also has no business coaching a professional team based on that argument.

[jpg75]

Aron Winter was an idealist who tried to have the team playing the way he wished the game should be played. He grossly misjudged the level of talent he had and the defensive capabilities of his opponent. Terribly naive.

[Macksam]

8 minutes ago, jpg75 said:

Aron Winter was an idealist who tried to have the team playing the way he wished the game should be played. He grossly misjudged the level of talent he had and the defensive capabilities of his opponent. Terribly naive.

Yes, this did indeed happen. The league might get to that point 20 years down the line if we're lucky.

I don't know if I'd call him naive. I would like to think him more stubborn. I admire that though. He is a man that has full congruence with his beliefs on how the game should be played. He was and still is an uncompromising individual.

[rob.notenboom]

6 hours ago, Macksam said:

Yes, this did indeed happen. The league might get to that point 20 years down the line if we're lucky.

I don't know if I'd call him naive. I would like to think him more stubborn. I admire that though. He is a man that has full congruence with his beliefs on how the game should be played. He was and still is an uncompromising individual.

You gotta dance with who brung ya.

[jpg75]

6 hours ago, Macksam said:

I don't know if I'd call him naive. I would like to think him more stubborn. I admire that though. He is a man that has full congruence with his beliefs on how the game should be played. He was and still is an uncompromising individual.

Unfortunately for him that is not what makes a good coach. A good coach will coach to his teams strengths and try to minimize their weaknesses. He will take what his opponents are giving him and adapt on the fly. When you have inferior talent and try to play like Ajax circa 1995 you're going to get your ass kicked.

[Kent]

Yeah. All he needed was an academy system that is so dominant that his player pool is vastly superior to every other team in the league. If he had that, he probably could have made the playoffs.

[Macksam]

1 hour ago, jpg75 said:

Unfortunately for him that is not what makes a good coach. A good coach will coach to his teams strengths and try to minimize their weaknesses. He will take what his opponents are giving him and adapt on the fly. When you have inferior talent and try to play like Ajax circa 1995 you're going to get your ass kicked.

Yeah, my thoughts back then were that he should have been the director of the academy to begin with instead of coach. 

[Macksam]

8 hours ago, Kent said:

Yeah. All he needed was an academy system that is so dominant that his player pool is vastly superior to every other team in the league. If he had that, he probably could have made the playoffs.

Really? This is what you have to say? 

[Obinna]

I liked him very much and wanted his vision for TFC to come to fruition. Sadly it wasn't meant to be. I would love for him to fill a technical role at the CSA though, or even a youth national team coach role.

[Free kick]

22 hours ago, jpg75 said:

Aron Winter was an idealist who tried to have the team playing the way he wished the game should be played. He grossly misjudged the level of talent he had and the defensive capabilities of his opponent. Terribly naive.

Exactly, he coached like a guy who had a squad of players akin to Barcelona or RM..  but this is league with a salary cap. And when you have a salary cap, you will have few guys who could play at that level and much of the rest of the team will be comprised of players making less than 150k/yr.. you will not find in this group the kind of players that can make the Aron Winter style successful. 

For me, Winter and Preki were the two most disppointing coaches in TFC history.  But for entirely differnt reasons. 

 

Edit.: i cant think of greater opposites than Preki and Winter.  Not just in style but also personalities. 

[paul-collins]

If Frings had stayed healthy this conversation might be a bit different.

[BearcatSA]

2 hours ago, paul-collins said:

If Frings had stayed healthy this conversation might be a bit different.

Possibly, but having so much revolve around one player doesn't seem like a template for long term team success. 

[Unnamed Trialist]

On 12/11/2016 at 6:23 AM, jpg75 said:

Unfortunately for him that is not what makes a good coach. A good coach will coach to his teams strengths and try to minimize their weaknesses. He will take what his opponents are giving him and adapt on the fly. When you have inferior talent and try to play like Ajax circa 1995 you're going to get your ass kicked.

What I don't get is why disassociate the coach with the players on the squad? Sign players who fit your idea of play. Or with the player selection? Play the guys you think best can execute your idea. What is wrong with that?

And what is the point of coaching a style you don't believe in? I mean, the players do not have to believe day one, the coach does. The player has to show discipline and commitment to the team project. And be willing to learn from a coach with a vision. 

I believe it goes both ways, and that the idea that the players have objective and unmovable strengths and weaknesses is a false notion. Many players have strengths they never show. There are a hell of a lot of outside backs who could be wings, mids who could be competent centre backs, centre backs who go play target forward and do well. Apart from players never asked to play out,  or cross with a wrong foot, or keep possession, who are not trained to do so--but able to learn how in a few months, if the coach insists. Also lots of players who are mediocre or just good in lower tier, get a chance to move up, and then are elite, in the right mix. A lot of 3rd tier players could be successful in top flight if the circumstances were favourable.

Now, Winter, perhaps he needed more time. Or perhaps he is actually technically not that good, regardless of his system. The good coaches change teams, alter them, shape them, are headstrong. They are not always successful, but often they can do other things, like play well in spite of losing too much, be entertaining. Or leave a legacy amongst younger players. 

Tata Martino has been signed to Atlanta, and I know him well. He is very experienced. I think he is very weak in terms of character and does not transmit his football ideas to his players. I think he is a bad choice, but not because he is inexperienced, we had him at Barça, he was at Argentina. Simply because he does not have the character to impose an idea and see it through. He may follow his players, that is lovely really, but pretty damn useless in spite of what results it might get you.

In any case, are you really all saying Winter would have done better if he'd followed his players skills and pad-protected their weaknesses? Not so sure about that.

[Grizzly]

What everyone is saying is that in a league with a strict salary cap and a lot of domestic restrictions for playing Canadian and mostly American players, Winter had no possibility of being able to build a team to play the style he wanted to play that could be successful against MLS level teams using tactics more suited to MLS style players.  If he were able to pay more money and hire more foreign players maybe he could have made it work but given the clear limitations he had that any decent coach should have realized he had no hope of being successful with the strategy he employed.

[Greatest Cockney Rip Off]

I really enjoyed his time at TFC and have very found memories of Voyagers and CCL cup runs. 

For me, the lowest point was Paul Mariner. 

[Macksam]

7 hours ago, Grizzly said:

What everyone is saying is that in a league with a strict salary cap and a lot of domestic restrictions for playing Canadian and mostly American players, Winter had no possibility of being able to build a team to play the style he wanted to play that could be successful against MLS level teams using tactics more suited to MLS style players.  If he were able to pay more money and hire more foreign players maybe he could have made it work but given the clear limitations he had that any decent coach should have realized he had no hope of being successful with the strategy he employed.

Exactly, he was a head of his time. A more quality MLS (whenever that happens) down the line would have been ideal for him.

[Oranje]

I kind of want to see him take a GM role with Calgary in the CPL. He had no qualms about feeding Canadians to the fire (for better or for worse) and tried to instill a grassroots foundation to TFC, which is exactly what CPL clubs need to do. Unfortunately, there was no execution at the Sr level which ended up being his downfall, however, that cannot be the case, at least early on, with the CPL if any growth is going to be fostered.

[Kent]

27 minutes ago, Macksam said:

Exactly, he was a head of his time. A more quality MLS (whenever that happens) down the line would have been ideal for him.

Just because he used a plan that didn't work (and brought in players that didn't work), doesn't mean that if the league was better he would have done better. If the salary cap was higher, and the player pool was better, it would have been better for other teams too. He hasn't yet proved he can out coach anybody. Let's wait and see how he does if/when he gets a first team gig.

Full disclosure, I did like him at the time, and I think Paul Mariner was a disaster, but it's tough to make an argument for him being a good manager.

[Kent]

11 minutes ago, Oranje said:

I kind of want to see him take a GM role with Calgary in the CPL. He had no qualms about feeding Canadians to the fire (for better or for worse) and tried to instill a grassroots foundation to TFC, which is exactly what CPL clubs need to do. Unfortunately, there was no execution at the Sr level which ended up being his downfall, however, that cannot be the case, at least early on, with the CPL if any growth is going to be fostered.

Interesting idea. Maybe an academy director role would be good for him. I would say academy team coach but he already is an academy coach in Ajax, so he would probably rather stay with Ajax than do the same job in Calgary (or some other CPL club). Director of an academy might be enough of a promotion that he would be willing to go to a club where he doesn't have the strong ties he has in Ajax.

[Macksam]

8 hours ago, Kent said:

Just because he used a plan that didn't work (and brought in players that didn't work), doesn't mean that if the league was better he would have done better. If the salary cap was higher, and the player pool was better, it would have been better for other teams too. He hasn't yet proved he can out coach anybody. Let's wait and see how he does if/when he gets a first team gig.

You're right. It doesn't. I beleive he would have though.

[paul-collins]

On 12/14/2016 at 5:43 PM, BearcatSA said:

Possibly, but having so much revolve around one player doesn't seem like a template for long term team success. 

True enough.  But he would have looked less bad because the collapse might not have been so dramatic.

At the time the Klinsmann project was being sold to the fan base as a multi year project, but it never had the time to bear fruit for Aron.  

This was at the same time as the setup of the Academy, and I think there has been some good that came out of that - just nothing good happened on the senior team in the immediate period.  So Aron was doomed.

[jpg75]

The Academy started in 2008. The Academy was expanded in 2011 to start as young as 12 yrs old.

[BearcatSA]

He's still a youth coach, albeit at major clubs, and perhaps that's his ceiling in coaching.